Common Sense and the Unknown

[kinabaloo]

Long-term use of nicotine alone is an area of concern, imo as that is not how it has been used over past decades. For many people, there is not the same satiation that occurs when all the alkaloids are present as in WTA, snus or smoke. Hence the overconsumption is not 'abuse' but the result of indivudual biochemistry. The body does not respond to nicotine anywhere near as quickly without MAOI alkaloids present and many will try to compensate by consuming more; but without the satiation to act as a 'reward' the problem might well get worse with time as the body up-regulates for what seems like a background effect. Around 25% do well with just-nicotine; far from all (former) smokers.

 

[paladinx]

yeah im sure using nicotine isn't going to be healthy.. Its a drug. I don't know the effects,, probably effects people differently at different times.. good point about the nicotine in vaping vs smoking etc.. I don't even know if you get more/less or equal the nicotine.. I hear different things.. some people say u absorb very little nicotine in e-cigs.. some say u get more nicotine.. :"::: shrugs::: what do you guys use? They sent me 6mg nicotine which i think is way too weak.. i probably need 18 or something

 

[Penner]

@Rolygate:
I vape mostly 100% VG as well.
Please PM me too, I am certainly interested in extended safety, & would like to privately speak with you.

Thank you.

 

[Penner]

@paladinx,

The latest consensus (that I have read) is that when an experienced vapor is vaping, they are getting the same amount of nicotine (at least) that they do out of a cigarette. The early studies, the ecigs were given to inexperienced smokers who didn't know how to use an ecig.

 

[Stubby]

One thing I am not sure about.. when people say don't take a deep "lung" inhale.. Is that when you breath into the device rather than like puffing it first into the mouth than inhaling? I always inhale the same way i smoke a cigarette,, Its like an initial puff that brings the smoking into your mouth, than an inhale after.. Not a straight breathing in inhale if that makes sense

I didn't use any e-cigs for a few years as I was using snus. The e-cigs took a back seat to the WTA loaded snus and it didn't take long for the e-cigs to start collecting dust. I did occasionally smoke a pipe or cigar. I used them as they are meant to be used as I didn't inhale.

When I started using an e-cig again I couldn't deal with inhaling. I have been using it much like I used a pipe. The evidence points to the fact that there is little nicotine absorption via the lungs and most is absorbed by the mucus membrane in the mouth and nose. It works much more like smokeless tobacco rather then a cigarette. There is really no reason to inhale vapor into the lungs except for habit.

It really is a different technic though. You really don't need to take long draws into the mouth as is common to e-cig users. Much better to do like pipe smokers do and sip on the e-cig. With a bit of practice you can exhale the vapor through you nose without inhaling. It might burn a bit at first but you'll get used to it.

 

[kinabaloo]

I didn't use any e-cigs for a few years as I was using snus. The e-cigs took a back seat to the WTA loaded snus and it didn't take long for the e-cigs to start collecting dust. I did occasionally smoke a pipe or cigar. I used them as they are meant to be used as I didn't inhale.

When I started using an e-cig again I couldn't deal with inhaling. I have been using it much like I used a pipe. The evidence points to the fact that there is little nicotine absorption via the lungs and most is absorbed by the mucus membrane in the mouth and nose. It works much more like smokeless tobacco rather then a cigarette. There is really no reason to inhale vapor into the lungs except for habit.

It really is a different technic though. You really don't need to take long draws into the mouth as is common to e-cig users. Much better to do like pipe smokers do and sip on the e-cig. With a bit of practice you can exhale the vapor through you nose without inhaling. It might burn a bit at first but you'll get used to it.

Agreed.

If this was more widely known and suggested, we'd see a lot less issues arising.

With this step, overall safety could go from 100x to 500x safer than smoking.

The bonus is that vaping w/o lung inhale is actually experientially better too.

 

[paladinx]

Honestly.. if i wasn't inhaling, i rather just smoke a cigar or something. That is the appeal for e-cigs to me.. a way to inhale but lower ur risk. I think people would enjoy the ploom if they use ecigs like a cigar.

I have a weird unrelated question if anyone would help me.. I have a volt e-cig with cartomizers. do you have to clean them at all before u refill them with a diff flavor liquid? Is it recommended even cleaning them? and if so how? and how long can you use one carto for? can you refill it a few times than toss it? I am pretty new to cartos.

 

[kinabaloo]

Not deep lung inhaling is not only better for the lungs, it's beeter all round, imo. Though it might take a little time to get used it.

Cartos can be refilled 3-6 times - basically till it doesnt seem so good. Potentially, much longer within a tank.

I woudn't bother cleaning them; rather use different cartos for different flavors. But don't keep them hanging around too long.

 

[DaveP]

I wonder sometimes about the quality of the ingredients, the accuracy of the mix, and the cleanliness of the preparation process in vendor juices. I have one bottle that I recently received that knocked my socks off after vaping it (ears ringing and other signs of nic OD). I'm not sure whether it was the juice or whether my blood pressure medication has stopped working, but my blood pressure rose significantly that afternoon and has stayed there for several days. I'm going to call the doctor and get in for a check Monday morning.

I'm sure the juice didn't cause it, but I stopped vaping it just in case and my BP didn't go down. We always look at what we were doing to determine if there was anything we can pin it on when BP rises (salty snacks, etc.)

I envision all sorts of juice preparation styles in vendors' labs. I'd like to think they all have super clean labs with strict quality control, but I'm sure there are many home labs that are turning out juice in less than sanitary conditions. The mix is a matter of taste and clarity, but I could see shoddy nicotine measurements appearing in juice where there was a slip up in the nicotine measurement in the mix of a large quantity or the container wasn't thoroughly mixed to ensure each bottle drawn was the same.

PG and VG quality is a big concern and I'm told that USP grade listed on the bottle tells me it's medical grade PG. I also understand that some PG and VG is veterinary grade and much cheaper. I wonder how we know that USP grade PG and VG are being used in our juices. Asking would be the obvious answer, but I'd like to see that on a web site without having to ask and feel safe that they are disclosing accurate info.

 

[paladinx]

,................................................ off topic post

 

[kinabaloo]

@ DaveP

Each batch should be tested for nic content - it only takes maybe 1/2 hour and a titration to do so.

 

[kinabaloo]

@ Palandrix re cleaning cartos

Having thought about it a bit more: I simply wouldn't; it's too fraught with potential microbial infection or residues.

I would store them filled (with e-liquid) and marked with a date and throw them no later than say 2 months if have been used. I wouldn't recommend cleaning for storage. If it's just to change liquids, have a number of cartridges.

 

[paladinx]

................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................ off topic post

 

[kinabaloo]

Reusing them is fine; but not keeping them hanging around for a long time unused - I doubt that one can really clean and dry them well enough for that. It can be done of course, I just dont recommend it for the average joe/jo. I'm not suggesting people aren't smart just that it would be tricky to do well and is it worth it? Use it as long as you can then throw it.

With use, there is a build up of deposit that cannot be washed out.

If ir's just to change flavors, use another carto.

If you'll use it again in a few days, top it up first - it will keep better that way; and put the end caps on.

 

[El Diablo Marrón]

I have been reading this thread from the start.
Lots of good info and tips, and it has kept very calm with all the views given.

I never thought about not doing deep inhales, I have been trying to just doing shallow throat inhales and it seems to be working and still letting me enjoy a very nice throat hit.

 

[Stubby]

I have been reading this thread from the start.
Lots of good info and tips, and it has kept very calm with all the views given.

I never thought about not doing deep inhales, I have been trying to just doing shallow throat inhales and it seems to be working and still letting me enjoy a very nice throat hit.

I'm considering starting a separate thread about the whys and hows of not deep inhaling. May take a bit as I want to do a bit more homework. Your welcome to it kin if you want to give it a shot as you likely have a more scientific way of explaining the whys.

Even shallow throat inhales may not be necessary but would be a good deal better then deep lung inhaling. I admit I do enjoy some shallow throat vaping. The worst way to use an e-cig is direct inhaling. I'm wondering what kind of desperation would push someone to use that method. It makes no sense as far as absorbing nicotine.

As former cigarette smokers, as I assume most here are, the idea of not inhaling does not come automatically. The first impulse is to inhale as we did with cigarettes. Everyone who has smoked cigarettes has the bad experience to not inhaling cigarette smoke. It's not a pleasant experience as cigarette smoke is acidic and very irritating if not inhaled. That is very much not the case with cigars and pipe smoking which are made to not inhale and are pleasing to use that way (though cheap cigars can be a different story). E-cigs are much closer to cigars and pipes then cigarettes

I actually get more flavor when I do not deep inhale. It's also more relaxing. Seems more contemplating like pipe smoking rather then the more frenetic cigarette smoking.

 

[kinabaloo]

@Stubby

Go for it; I think you know much more about it than I, who simply think it is a wise thing to do, better for the lungs and actually better for enjoyment (at least once one finds one's way - not difficult).

 

[rolygate]

@Paladinx
This has been a good thread, informative and some good points of debate. Would you mind editing out your material about cleaning cartos and starting a new thread somewhere else about that, please. I'll move across the posts about that and delete this. It would be nice to keep this one on topic.

 

[Rar]

I've seen some pictures of people's e-liquids where some look like ink they are that dark!

But my main concern, as it is a key ingredient, is the safety of inahing PG and VG (esp. long term). They are not toxic. However, PG can be irritating and VG is very slow to evaporate (how well or not it is absorbed by the lungs is unknown). So potentially both could lead to chronic bronchitis (inflammation) which is experienced as wheezing/difficulty breathing and extra mucous needing to be coughed up (and which is extra sticky).

If you get these symptoms, try not to deep lung inhale. If it persists, stop vaping for 1-2 weeks and see if things improve. Then try again, with minmal lung inhalation. If these symptoms return again then you would have to try vaping less (look into WTA and snus). There will be some people who just can't do the inhalation of PG or VG without this result. While PG is far more likely to cause classic intolerance, imo VG is more likely to cause the sticky mucous issue. A no-glycol e-liquid would be welcome.

The danger of ignoring chronic bronchitis is increased chance of a serious lung infection, such as pneumonia. The older you are the more likely to get this proble, and the more careful you need to be about it.

This issue could present as fast as a day or two. It's not easy to differentiate this from smoking withdrawal (detox) and getting a cold, so don't be too quick to jump to conclusions, but cut down or stop vaping in the meantime.

I'm currently suffering from what was diagnosed as a COPD exacerbation. I thought it was bronchitis because of the extra sticky mucus, wheezing and coughing. The doc said I might have a touch of bronchitis, but it was a COPD exacerbation. I wasn't even sure I had COPD, so that was a bit startling. I am 7 mos smoke free and have been vaping for about 8 months. I'm trying to think of the differences in my vaping habits to possibly cause this. I think it could one of two things - maybe it's a combination of each of them. I began using cartos in addition to dripping. Also, I was primarily vaping a juice with 30pg/70vg. Presently the juices with 70pg/30vg are making me cough (my bronchial tubes are still sensitive). So, I'm not sure. One thing I do know...this COPD thing really scared me because I couldn't breathe. I will have to try to alter my inhaling techniques. Thanks for this post.

 

[paladinx]

I have to give some of you guys credit for your tenacity. I read a lot about people getting reactions while vaping, or allergic reactions... One woman said she had to go to the ER because her throat closed and she blamed it on an allergy to the primor fluid in a new atomizer.. Something like that would scare the hell out of me from vaping, but she changed juices and cleans out her atomizers when she first gets them and is continuing to vape. I know if I get a bad experience after quitting smoking and vaping I will be too angry and ...... to go back to vaping. I will quit it completely and find another method. That is why I am trying to be cautious to avoid something like this. I been smoking cigarettes heavy for over 10 years.. if i switch to vaping and in a few months I get some crazy side effect.. that would really anger me.