Curious about "nicotine addiction"

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chapeltown

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Smokeless tobacco
Smokeless tobacco, also called spit tobacco, includes chewing tobacco (dip and chew), tobacco powder (snuff), as well as flavored tobacco lozenges. These products also contain nicotine.
Smokeless tobacco products allow tobacco to be absorbed by the digestive system or through mucus membranes. Smokeless tobacco contains at least 28 cancer-causing substances, and is not a safe substitute for smoking cigarettes or cigars. According to the National Institutes of Health, chewing on an average-sized piece of chewing tobacco for 30 minutes can deliver as much nicotine as smoking three cigarettes.
Evidence suggests that smokeless tobacco increases the risk of oral cancer, gingivitis, and tooth loss. The risk of cancer in people who use smokeless tobacco is lower than that of smokers, but is still higher than that of people who do not use tobacco at all. Using smokeless tobacco also seems to increase the risk of fatal heart attacks and strokes.
Pipes and Cigars
Pipe and cigar smoking are on the rise. Because pipe and cigar smokers often don't inhale, the common misperception is that they don't face as substantial a health risk as cigarette smokers. Yet recent research finds that smoking pipes or cigars causes harmful health effects similar to those of cigarettes.
From an article by American Council on Science and Health Dr. Murray Laugesen Public Health Medicine Specialist QSO, MBChB, FNZCPHM, FRCS (Edin)

Okay, This was going to be my question....
I have noticed here recently that a lot of people on the forums are saying that smokeless tobacco is harmless or way safer than cigarettes, But the above is what I have read/heard/believed for decades.

Is it not irresponsible to take smokeless tobacco off the hook for carcinigens, disease, etc.???
 

rsdntbplr

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Okay, This was going to be my question....
I have noticed here recently that a lot of people on the forums are saying that smokeless tobacco is harmless or way safer than cigarettes, But the above is what I have read/heard/believed for decades.

Is it not irresponsible to take smokeless tobacco off the hook for carcinigens, disease, etc.???

Of course the government isn't going to outlaw smokeless tobacco! They get way too much tax from tobacco products for them to do that. All this propaganda abut e-cigarettes being harmful is just to hide the real reasons that e-cigs are facing so much ridicule from politicians and tobacco companies alike: the government doesn't earn nearly as much tax from tobacco-free nicotine delivery systems (e-cigs mainly) and the tobacco companies are losing business.

More and more large organisations are jumping on the "if you use an e-cigarette, you WILL get cancer and you WILL die" bandwagon for their own personally-inspired reasons.

:p
 

otrpu

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Okay, This was going to be my question....
I have noticed here recently that a lot of people on the forums are saying that smokeless tobacco is harmless or way safer than cigarettes, But the above is what I have read/heard/believed for decades.

Is it not irresponsible to take smokeless tobacco off the hook for carcinigens, disease, etc.???

A long time friend used to climb all over my case for my cigarette smoking, which I did for more than 52 years. He had switched to smokeless tobacco some 20 years earlier. Well. . .I switched to ecig use, but lost him to cancer a few years ago. This is getting downright scary. Heart doctors say nicotine isn't a benefit. My last vape was Feb 6th. Use it if you wanna. . .I choose not too. JMHO

Cheers,
otrpu
 

rsdntbplr

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A long time friend used to climb all over my case for my cigarette smoking, which I did for more than 52 years. He had switched to smokeless tobacco some 20 years earlier. Well. . .I switched to ecig use, but lost him to cancer a few years ago. This is getting downright scary. Heart doctors say nicotine isn't a benefit. My last vape was Feb 6th. Use it if you wanna. . .I choose not too. JMHO

Cheers,
otrpu

E-cigs aren't nearly the same as smokeless tobacco. I respect your opinion and understand the risk in the unknown (the long-term risks of Vaping still aren't clear). However: smokeless tobacco still isn't removing the tobacco, which itself contains a handful of carcinogens and harmful compounds. Whether or not that tobacco is combusted and smoked, is irrelevant. With Vaping, the tobacco itself has been removed from the equation and thus further reduces the risk of inhaling carcinogens. Nicotine in itself isn't particularly harmful - it's the other compounds and carcinogens contained in tobacco that poses the risk. Of course, smoking tobacco further INCREASES the risk but not smoking it and consuming tobacco via other means still gives you the other dangers of tobacco itself.

Different types of smokeless tobacco have their own risks - chewing tobacco, for example, increases the risk of oral and throat cancers. The chewing in the mouth is the obvious culprit of the cause of the oral cancer and the throat cancer is caused by the small amounts of chewing tobacco that make their way down the oesophagus when saliva containing chewing tobacco is swallowed: accidentally or intentionally. Tobacco which is inhaled through the nose can cause damage to the lining of the nose and can cause cancers of the sinus or nose and once again throat cancer, as sniffed or snorted tobacco will eventually end up in the throat area. Tobacco remnants can also eventually find their way into the stomach and eventually, the carcinogens enter the bloodstream: both during administration (chewing, snuff, etc) and when it finds itself in places it shouldn't really be.

I am very dreadfully sorry to hear about your friend. I lose my grandfather to cancer last year - lung cancer which spread over his spine. He was a heavy smoker. Was your friends death exclusively linked to the use of smokeless tobacco? I only ask because sometimes people quit smoking too late. My grandfather quit 20 years before he was diagnosed with lung cancer, and Allen Carr (a famous smoking cessation therapist, in a way) quit even longer than that before dying from Lung Cancer also. Unfortunately, you never know when you've smoked that cigarette to trigger cancer in your body. I'm completely off the analogs and have been for a week now but even I could have quit too late and those mutations caused by smoking tobacco could already been developing into a cancer, and I just wouldn't know for years to come.

We need to know more about long-term risks associated with tobacco-less nicotine inhalation, I agree. However I strongly believe that there will be only very minor long-term effects.
 

LDS714

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I didn't know they put food flavorings in smoke machines? Not sure how you can compare these to vaping
I've used fog juice with scents (flavorings?) in it since the 80s. For example, if the club was running a drink special on Pina Coladas we'd actually mix pineapple and coconut fog juice.

I'm not sure if the scents are food flavorings, though.
 

Racehorse

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I find it hard to believe that a person with 5,676 posts on the ECF board is so disgusted with vaping and nicotine that they want to completely eliminate it from their life. I would expect that a person in that position would seek to completely disassociate themselves with the vaping community. I just don't get it....

I find it hard to believe that you didn't read my post carefully.

I said "Addiction is not a place I want to spend my life, as it implies to me an area where I am not really in control. Doesn't matter to me whether the addiction is "a harmless substance" or not. "

How my personal goal for myself implies a digust with vaping is rather a large leap of logic on your part. :)

I also said that I wish to eventually be free from the rituals........all of them. Vaping freed me from smoking. Now, my next goal is to maybe be free of vaping too.

You are aware of course, that plenty of people here have quit vaping, and plenty of people also vape zero nic. ?

That there are even members here who have already quit vaping, but still hang around because they have friends and enjoy the community? Like to help newbies, help people who are still smoking and want to switch?

Because ------ it seems to me you are saying that everyone who vapes should want to vape FOREVER and if they don't they shouldn't be here?

I love coffee. I don;t think its harmful, but I gave that up too, because I didn't want to be dependent on caffeine. The few times I was unable to get coffee in the morning, I ended up with a real bad headache. To me, that impinges on my freedom. I don't want to have that going on in my body. A glass of water in the morning is great now!

Nobody is telling YOU not to enjoy your nicotine forever. I didn't tell you that, did I? I don't think it's bad---- for anyone......I just don't want to have it forever. Hope that's okay with you.

By the way, I don't know if nicotine is addictive or not. I don't think it matters because it is not harmful for the most part. But it may be different for everyone. For me, it has always felt like an addiction, I mean, I had a distinct craving for it. Whether that was biochemical or psychological, I do not know.
 
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I don't see nicotine being any different from a legislative standpoint as caffeine. They're both addictive but otherwise harmless stimulants with similar effects. People are addicted to caffeine and nobody bats an eye. Nobody is criticizing caffeine being "marketed to children", or legislating restrictions against children consuming caffeine products. Any kid in the world can walk into any Starbucks fifty times a day, run into any retail establishment and pick up No-Doz or Vivarin by the case (I've personally witnessed this), and juice himself up to his eyebrows with caffeine, not a whisper in the hallowed halls of Capitol Hill. But mention nicotine which comes from evil SMOKING, "oh, we have to DO something!"

Nicotine is essentially harmless, therefore it cannot honestly be described as addictive even if it did have dependence potential (since 'addiction' in modern usage implies measurable harm).
There is substantial evidence that it does not create dependence, although such evidence has to be described as anecdotal, for technical reasons.
The medical community involved with nicotine clearly recognise it as a harmless compound with no potential for dependence but many medical benefits, or they would not be happy to administer high doses for many months to unexposed individuals.
 
:toast:toast:toast: The Above ^^^^ Two Articles are the best I have read for ages on any site or forum and it totally agrees with my views on smoking and Vaping. Top marks to both Racehorse and rondaum. This is the very same or similar that I have written about at length on my blog site (It seems to me under the rules here I am not allowed to put the link to that blog site here) and in another Forum and got stood on for daring to say that people should, if they so desired not only quit smoking but the dependancy on nicotine. I also stated that I too would one day wish to cease vaping however, even with zero nicotine e-juices, I find that there are so many attractive and pleasant flavours available especially in the Coffee range and yes I love my coffee that I do not think I will ever cease Vaping these delicious flavours.

Why?

Look at it this way, I am driving along the road, I feel like a coffee, not a coffee shop for miles, I pull out a coffee flavoured vape, the initial desire is satisfied. Now I do not know if the coffee flavoured vape is actually contains caffeine and to be honest I do not give a moot if it does or does not. I am a coffee lover and go out of my way to obtain exotic coffee beans. If you wish to call me a caffeine addict feel free (mea cupa)!

J.
 

rsdntbplr

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:toast:toast:toast: The Above ^^^^ Two Articles are the best I have read for ages on any site or forum and it totally agrees with my views on smoking and Vaping. Top marks to both Racehorse and rondaum. This is the very same or similar that I have written about at length on my blog site (It seems to me under the rules here I am not allowed to put the link to that blog site here) and in another Forum and got stood on for daring to say that people should, if they so desired not only quit smoking but the dependancy on nicotine. I also stated that I too would one day wish to cease vaping however, even with zero nicotine e-juices, I find that there are so many attractive and pleasant flavours available especially in the Coffee range and yes I love my coffee that I do not think I will ever cease Vaping these delicious flavours.

Why?

Look at it this way, I am driving along the road, I feel like a coffee, not a coffee shop for miles, I pull out a coffee flavoured vape, the initial desire is satisfied. Now I do not know if the coffee flavoured vape is actually contains caffeine and to be honest I do not give a moot if it does or does not. I am a coffee lover and go out of my way to obtain exotic coffee beans. If you wish to call me a caffeine addict feel free (mea cupa)!

J.

I'm with you on this. Whether or not Vaping is essentially harmless (I believe it is, essentially, harmless), I'm still at least dependant on Nicotine and my overall goal is to completely remove that dependence. After a few months more of Vaping 24mg juice, I'm planning on very slowly reducing my nicotine intake.

Even though I'm glad I've kicked the analogs, it's still annoying to have to have my ecig on me everywhere I go just because I may need to Vape while I'm out.

I love Vaping but I like to be in control and, while I'm still dependant on anything (including caffeine), I am NOT in control.
 
I'm with you on this. Whether or not Vaping is essentially harmless (I believe it is, essentially, harmless), I'm still at least dependant on Nicotine and my overall goal is to completely remove that dependence. After a few months more of Vaping 24mg juice, I'm planning on very slowly reducing my nicotine intake.

Even though I'm glad I've kicked the analogs, it's still annoying to have to have my ecig on me everywhere I go just because I may need to Vape while I'm out.

I love Vaping but I like to be in control and, while I'm still dependant on anything (including caffeine), I am NOT in control.

What are you inferring that you wish to be in control of?
How many people cannot not survive without their "cup of tea" The British are almost as famous as the Japanese with all their tea drinking rituals. My partner is a Brit, and she drives me bananas with the constant cravings for that 'cup of tea' and if that is not an addiction then pray tell me what is.

Just because you enjoy something does not mean you are in less control of yourself.

I totally enjoy carrying my Vaping device everywhere I go and especially to idiotic open air malls and footpath cafe's where smoking has been banned. Yes we have open air malls where our idiot legislators have banned smoking in the open air and in some States it is banned on beaches and parks.

I do not care what people say about coffee or tea and I have met people of religious sects that have tried to sway me from drinking coffee , tea and alcohol, I have no time for them.

Speaking of alcohol, as you say you wish to be in total control, do you drink alcoholic beverages?
If you do, then sorry friend, you are not in total control as you maintain you want to be.

J.
 
This may be of some interest here:

The Great Nicotine Myth

Is Nicotine Addictive ?



:)

Sent while Moderating ECF via Tapatalk 4

Thanks,

I already have the document on the first link, the second link is most useful and greatly appreciated as this will certainly help in our current campaign in Australia with God's gift to humanity the Vape! Our politicians are the greatest procrastinators this planet has ever known! :mad: I do not want to say any more as I might revert to cuss words when it comes to politicians.
 

Marooned

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What are you inferring that you wish to be in control of?

I'm in my 60's, have been smoking since my early teens. Won't bother with long stories of unsuccessful quit smoking attempts. Suffice to say i was on at least 2 packs/day and switched to ecigs effortlessly. Absolutely effortlessly. Started ecigs and never looked back. Cigarettes disappeared out of my mind like mist before the sun.

However, I have no desire to quit nicotine. It holds virtually no negatives for me, and many positives.

All that said, to the being in control thing. Reminds me of how I thought as a young man. Always be in control. Honour, knight in shining armour stuff, really.

Except 'you', the essence you imagine, isn't. Only your brain is. And if you read up on the latest neurological research on free will et all, there's some home truths to deal with.

It's a nice thought though. Very noble. But it may be useful for reality not to get too carried away with it, The danger is it can turn you into a judgmental self-righteous person. Aka a pain-in-the-..... :)


You are your brain. It controls you. And you have no way to set the parameters by which it controls you. 'You', the much dreamed-of 'essence'. simply reacts to it's control.
 
You are your brain. It controls you. And you have no way to set the parameters by which it controls you. 'You', the much dreamed-of 'essence'. simply reacts to it's control.

I really like this one I wonder if I could get away with this excuse when I come home tippsy after a night out with the boys and my Missus is waiting for me with a rolling pin.:oops:
 
To each their own. If they want to gain control where once it was lost then more power to them! Who are any of us to say different just because we don't want it for ourselves. Tsk. Such a trivial argument that just keeps regurgitating animosity where none should be.

In total agreement DetraMental, Why be control freaks, If you get pleasure from something that does you little or no harm and does not cost the earth to obtain go for it. What really peeves me are all these ninny nannies that like to be control freaks with their laws and regulations. What we eat, drink, or smoke is the right of every individual to choose provided they have reached the age of reasonable intelligence.

Where were the ninny nannies when the tobacco industry was poisoning the global smoker population. I did not see cigarette sales being banned in any state or country. Sure, the ninny nannies made a show of concern a very slight token gesture but, when it came to a device / product that could revolutionise the whole ingestion of nicotine without the dangers associated with it by the carcinogenic additives in the cancer sticks all hell breaks loose. Why?

Easy answer, ninny nanny does not care about your health, all that low life creature cares about is the $$$$$ her apron pockets will be missing out on.
 

rolygate

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Nicotine's potential for dependence

.....From an article by American Council on Science and Health Dr. Murray Laugesen Public Health Medicine Specialist QSO, MBChB, FNZCPHM, FRCS (Edin)

I have a lot of respect for Laugesen as he was the first scientist to research ecigs and to advocate for them. However he is one of the old guard when it comes to subjects like nicotine and ST, and some of the stuff he's written recently about them is baloney - both out of date and deliberately obfuscatory regarding certain risks or lack of risks.

His recent paper on 'Nicotine and Health' for the ACSH (who also deserve respect for their honesty) is riddled with outdated information and concepts that can probably be described as errors.

There is no evidence of any potential for nicotine to create dependence outside of exposure to tobacco smoke. On the other hand, there are about half a dozen clinical trials of pure nicotine administered to never-smokers, in some cases with high doses for 6 months, and none reported any withdrawal symptoms or continued use. So what evidence there is (which is regarded as anecdotal simply because the purpose of these trials was to measure benefit, lack of benefit, or side effects, for treatment with pure nicotine of assorted medical conditions such as cognitive dysfunction, but not dependence potential) appears to show that nicotine not only has no clinically-significant potential for dependence (i.e. a 3% effect or greater) but no measurable potential at all.

There are one or two caveats though: inhaled nicotine was not measured, and there is a possibility that results may be different with inhalation. Until this is tested, therefore, it is not possible to state definitively that "nicotine has no potential for dependence" - just that there is no evidence for it. Note carefully that all studies that do report dependence are of smoking or smokers or ex-smokers; such trials are invalid because the subjects have already been exposed to the addictive cocktail of chemicals in tobacco smoke.

Nicotine is just one of the multiple candidates for the chemical dependence sector of addiction to smoking. It appears to need MAOIs and/or WTAs and/or pyrolytic compounds (and maybe freebasing as well), delivered along with the nicotine in order to create a synergistic effect, before the brain chemistry is permanently (or semi-permanently) changed to create dependence on nicotine by itself. There is absolutely no evidence that pure nicotine as contained in ecigs has any potential for dependence. Because an accurate modern definition of addiction is, "Compulsion to continue the habit despite negative consequences", as noted in one of the previous posts, the term cannot be applied to nicotine in any case - because no negative consequences can be demonstrated for long-term nicotine consumption. Even the ultra-conservative British medical establishment recognise this: see NICE PH45. Indeed, the vast mountain of Snus data from Sweden is used for long-term licensing applications for NRTs, since no reliably measurable harm can be shown, and because the NRT data resource is tiny by comparison (the lack of any clearly demonstrable harm in the Snus data is both proven by the national health stats and the massive volume of research data: hundreds of clinical studies over three decades). For a breakdown of this data / meta-analyses, see PN Lee, Lee and Hamlin, and Foulds et al 2003.


Hazards of ST (smokeless tobacco)

People in the tobacco control industry deliberately obscure the facts about ST in order to be able to claim that "all tobacco is very bad for you". For a full explanation of the real or imagined risks, please read the work of Rodu, Phillips and Foulds, who are independent of the TCI.

When examining the evidence for elevation of risk due to ST consumption, there are several essential facts to take into account:
1. Consumption of Snus in Sweden is proven (not estimated) to have extremely low risk. This cannot be applied to other places or other eras (although there may be exceptions.
2. Consumption of Asian tobacco-containing oral products is proven to have significant risk.
3. Modern US oral tobacco products have low risks, and the level of risk is unrelated to that for historic products, which are known to have had significant risk. Modern products are not just safer, they are far safer.

Male smoking prevalence in Sweden will be just 5% in 2016 as prevalence falls by 1% per year and is currently about 7% or 8%. All types of smoking-related disease, including all cancers and not just lung cancer, are falling at the same rate as the reduction in smoking (and the rise in Snus consumption). Sweden has the lowest rate of male lung cancer and oral cancer in the EU. Sweden has the lowest rate of smoking-related mortality of any developed country by a wide margin.
"As smoking rates in Sweden fell significantly, and Snus consumption rose significantly, the oral cancer rate fell dramatically."
- Prof Rodu, the authority on the oral pathology of tobacco consumption.
"The principal risks for oropharyngeal cancers [mouth cancer] are smoking, drinking and HPV."
- Rodu
"Elevation of risk for cancer from Snus consumption is too low to be reliably identified."
- Rodu

It is common to lump together all types of oral tobacco in all countries in all eras in order to come up with the most toxic statistics possible. Such an approach is disinformation (deliberately misinforming for the purposes of an agenda, and in total a lie). There is no comparison between modern and historic products. There is no comparison between Swedish and Asian products. Combining the results for all these products and eras and regions is simply lying for an agenda (as in the IARC report on ST).

Keep in mind that ex-smokers get cancer 20 years later, and Swedish Snus consumers who never smoked have an unmeasurably low incidence of any cancer. They do get cancer - but in such low numbers that it is impossible to reliably identify the effect statistically. ST and even Snus consumption is not safe because nothing is, even coffee and tea consumption would have a negative effect if you could measure it. It only has to be safer than smoking to make it worthwhile switching; and when it is so much safer that the elevation of risk isn't reliably measurable then obviously there are great benefits.


Long-term health impact of vaping

We don't know the long-term impact of vaping but it looks as if it will be in the Snus class. Some say better, some say worse. As a personal opinion it looks as if there will be a three orders of magnitude reduction in risk compared with smoking as the mean figure (1,000 times), with individuals able to adjust that risk up or down as they wish, since vaping is an extremely flexible system. That is to say, if you vape 3ml of unflavored or minimum-flavor base a day, then you might possibly take your risk reduction compared to smoking down to four orders of magnitude (10,000 times less); but if you vape 10ml of heavily-flavoured refill liquid in a 30-watt RBA a day then you could go way up the risk scale to perhaps only 2 or even 1 order of magnitude reduction. A 3-order reduction or 1,000 equals a reduction from 100,000 deaths a year to only 100. (Please note this is a personal opinion and may be incorrect.)


Fog flavoring

You can buy lemon flavor to add to disco fog, and we used to add it back in the 70's when I was in sound and light engineering. Doubt if it's changed.


- all citations can be found on the References page of ecigarette-politics.com -
 

Nate760

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A lot of people (and this includes vapers) misuse the word "addiction" when the appropriate word is "dependence." Addiction means the compulsive repetition of a behavior despite the behavior causing demonstrable harm. Since smoking causes demonstrable harm to nearly everyone who does it on a daily basis, it is accurate to call smoking an addiction. Nicotine *dependence*, on the other hand, is not intrinsically harmful when no tobacco use is involved in administering it. Dependence simply means you'll experience withdrawal symptoms if you discontinue use. I drink one cup of coffee every morning, and if I don't, I'll have a terrible headache in the early afternoon. But I'm not addicted to coffee, I'm merely dependent on a regular daily dose of caffeine.

Misusing and overusing the word "addiction" is a counterproductive thing for us to do, and it has the side effect of trivializing actual addictions. We should take care to use the correct nomenclature.
 
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