D/AP concerns. Vocal minority?

[skoony]

If we realize that those of us that come to these forums represent most likely less than 5%
of the total population of vapers its no wonder that concerns of any type get amplified all
out of proportion to any actual harm. Potential risk does not mean actual risk nor does it
mean any risk will ever be found. One could say potential safety as opposed to potential
risk and be just as correct.
Then there's the long term study because/ we don't know yet fallacy. this is almost always
used in conjunction with the potential risk argument. Well folks science has come a long
way. Current studies indicate as of right now there is no harm being done to otherwise
healthy individuals. Sure I suppose the long term studies will be done and that's ok.
Current evidence indicates there will be no there, there when the long term studies
are complete.
I personally think we should be talking about the potential safety of e-cigarettes as
opposed to the potential risks. Everything so far indicates they are safe.

Regards
Mike

 

[DeAnna2112]

Thing is i don't care about cigs and what they disclose or don't..that is a fight for smokers....i care about vaping and how it pertains to me as a vaper. I just want to see honest disclosure by stating if the liquid has been tested or not when a vendor makes a claim..i don't think that is asking for much and would derail any need for regulation in that area..the way it is now with some vendors..regulation is going to be seen as warranted unfortunately.

 

[WhiteHighlights]

Ahhh the smell of diktones on a crisp desert morning.

What's next in the fight to save vapers worldwide? Nickel? Titanium? Aluminum? Iron? Chromium? all of which can be very toxic.

LOL, you left out the most important one -- AIR!

FWIW, I don't think DK's are a significant risk. I chose to try DK free juices because I have allergy induced asthma (dang cat). Switching to vaping helped and being mostly DK free seems to help even more. I sometimes vape juices with DK and my lungs let me know when they've had enough. YMMV. And yes, you can smell it once you know the scent.

 

[Visus]

Can you post proof that any ejuice contains more than a whole pack of cigarettes? Or is this an assumption? Everything I've researched shows cigarettes are way more potent with the stuff.

I've yet to see any eliquid maker purposely put diacetyl in juice. It comes in certain flavors which many vapors want. I agree maybe they should be more transparent but the FDA doesn't even require cigarette makers to list all their toxins. They have no ingredients listed.

Its all posted on this forum. How much is in analogs and how much is in a certain ejuice that is being sold daily. Use the search..

 

[Visus]

So how about some guidance or is there a video on the topic.

I started mixing at home a couple of months ago. I started with one flavor and using it ever since, something called Cuppucino by Capella. It's seems to have a creamy taste. The seller, MFS doesn't address the diacetyl issue as far as I can tell. What I want to do is settle on a flavor or two that I like and leave it at that. Why not something benign? I'm not searching endlessly for the perfect taste or the perfect anything. If you mix and rebuild vaping is free. I like the money I'm saving.

Flavour art has 0% diacetyl in all their flavors... I can help ya there..

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

Thing is i don't care about cigs and what they disclose or don't..that is a fight for smokers....i care about vaping and how it pertains to me as a vaper. I just want to see honest disclosure by stating if the liquid has been tested or not when a vendor makes a claim..i don't think that is asking for much and would derail any need for regulation in that area..the way it is now with some vendors..regulation is going to be seen as warranted unfortunately.

I see. And that's what you feel. You do realize regulations have nothing to do with if a vendor discloses diacetyl or not. The FDA could care less about that or it would be listed on the side of a cigarette pack or they would have forced cigarette makers to find an alternative. They want regulations regardless. Regulations aren't going to be pretty. It's going to hit hard. There will not be any juices left to test, except for BT and I doubt they'll tell you if it has diacetyl, they don't with cigarettes.

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

Its all posted on this forum. How much is in analogs and how much is in a certain ejuice that is being sold daily. Use the search..

I don't have to. I've done my research. Analogs contains 100 times more than in ejuice. Found in researching studies, not forums though.

 

[Visus]

Must be true if found on a forum



Flavoring manufacturers must keep their Diacetyl in a balloon.

Its found on any beer making forum as well its easily detected if you know what to look for it can be tasted or smelled in ppb.. Only takes a small drop of it to make huge flavor. If you diy you find some flavors can flavor 500ml with literally just a drop.. Whats wild is that they are watered down from their concentrated form at even that dilution rate..

Diacetyl forms naturally with time it forms in ppm's by the trillion billion million thousand etc.

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

Here: maybe this can shed some light on the situation!


Created on Tuesday, 02 September 2014 11:34
A new study verifies the lower risk-potential of e-cigarettes but identifies an avoidable risk


A new study was published today in the journal Nicotine and Tobacco Research, evaluating the presence of two inhalation toxins (diacetyl and acetyl propionyl) in e-cigarette liquids. Researchers, led by Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos from the Onassis Cardiac Surgery Center in Athens-Greece, obtained 159 e-liquid samples (all sweet-flavoured) from 36 manufactures and 7 countries (6 European and the US). They tested them for the presence of diacetyl and acetyl propionyl. These two chemicals are ingredients of flavourings and, although safe for use in food, have been associated with the development of respiratory dysfunction when inhaled.

The study found that 74.2% of the samples contained either diacetyl or acetyl propionyl, with more samples containing diacetyl. The levels were on average slightly lower than currently-established safety limits (set by NIOSH), but more than 40% of the samples had higher than safety levels. Of note, the highest amount of diacetyl found was 495 times higher than safety limits, while for acetyl propionyl it was 22 times higher. Tobacco cigarettes smoke contains both compounds, at levels 100 times higher for diacetyl and 10 times higher for acetyl propionyl compared to e-cigarette average daily exposure.

In the full text of the manuscript, the authors explain that the main problem caused by diacetyl exposure is a decline in respiratory function characterized by a decline in a spirometry parameter (FEV1). Bronchiolitis obliterans (“popcorn lung disease”) is a rare condition, even in cases of exposure to high levels of diacetyl. The cut-off level of risk calculated by NIOSH for the safety limit is for 1 in 1000 chance of suffering reduced lung function associated with lifelong diacetyl exposure, which is a very conservative estimation. However, many samples contained levels much higher than safety limits. Moreover, unlike tobacco cigarettes where these chemicals are produced during the combustion process, in e-cigarettes they are used as ingredients. Thus, this represents an avoidable risk, which should be removed.

“The study is important because it confirms the lower risk potential of e-cigarettes compared to smoking but also identifies an avoidable risk” said leading author Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos. He added: “We expect to see appropriate action taken by the e-cigarette industry to remove this small but unnecessary risk, making the products even safer than they currently are”.

It is important to emphasise that only sweet flavours were selected in this study because these are most probable to contain these chemicals. Thus, it is expected that the overall prevalence of diacetyl and acetyl propionyl in all flavour-types is lower. The authors did not suggest that any flavours should be removed from the market but recommended analytical testing of the flavourings and reformulation of those containing diacetyl and acetyl propionyl.



In conclusion, this study has contributed significantly in establishing e-cigarettes as less harmful to smoking alternatives, while the identification of a small but avoidable risk will alert the industry to resolve this issue permanently and effectively.

 

[DeAnna2112]

I see. And that's what you feel. You do realize regulations have nothing to do with if a vendor discloses diacetyl or not. The FDA could care less about that or it would be listed on the side of a cigarette pack or they would have forced cigarette makers to find an alternative. They want regulations regardless. Regulations aren't going to be pretty. It's going to hit hard. There will not be any juices left to test, except for BT and I doubt they'll tell you if it has diacetyl, they don't with cigarettes.

I disagree...guess we shall see when the regs hit how diketones will be addressed.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Many of the creamy flavors only contain AP with maybe the barest traces of D.

 

[Visus]

I don't have to. I've done my research. Analogs contains 100 times more than in ejuice. Found in researching studies, not forums though.

Did you not ask? RFOL how much is in analogs then that you are so sure? What are these researching studies?
There are some ejuices out there that are over run with diacetyl you may not encounter them but believe they are out there.. Flavor sales sells point blank diacetyl is amazing flavorizer point blank.

 

[ReigntheGamer]

I disagree...guess we shall see when the regs hit how diketones will be addressed.

Like how the FDA removed harmful chemicals from cigarettes? Oh wait...

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

I disagree...guess we shall see when the regs hit how diketones will be addressed.

Do you honestly think the FDA cares about what is in ejuice? Think about their history with tobacco and drugs. It's about money and control, not safety. If safety were a concern cigarette makers would be designing safer cigarettes and listing harmful ingredients. Drugs would be tested before going to the market, not the market being the test. The FDA doesn't care about diacetyl. They've already said they'll do away with flavors. Not because of diacetyl, but because of the children. It's ugly an way you look at it. Just wait and see.

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

Did you not ask? RFOL how much is in analogs then that you are so sure? What are these researching studies?
There are some ejuices out there that are over run with diacetyl you may not encounter them but believe they are out there.. Flavor sales sells point blank diacetyl is amazing flavorizer point blank.

The study proves that even the "overrun" juices are still 100 times lower than cigarettes. Did you even read it?

 

[Elizabeth Baldwin]

Did you not ask? RFOL how much is in analogs then that you are so sure? What are these researching studies?
There are some ejuices out there that are over run with diacetyl you may not encounter them but believe they are out there.. Flavor sales sells point blank diacetyl is amazing flavorizer point blank.

I ask in sarcasm. I already knew and found it sort of funny.

 

[Visus]

If we realize that those of us that come to these forums represent most likely less than 5%
of the total population of vapers its no wonder that concerns of any type get amplified all
out of proportion to any actual harm. Potential risk does not mean actual risk nor does it
mean any risk will ever be found. One could say potential safety as opposed to potential
risk and be just as correct.
Then there's the long term study because/ we don't know yet fallacy. this is almost always
used in conjunction with the potential risk argument. Well folks science has come a long
way. Current studies indicate as of right now there is no harm being done to otherwise
healthy individuals. Sure I suppose the long term studies will be done and that's ok.
Current evidence indicates there will be no there, there when the long term studies
are complete.
I personally think we should be talking about the potential safety of e-cigarettes as
opposed to the potential risks. Everything so far indicates they are safe.

Regards
Mike

I disagree to agree as the studies are not conclusive but yet in foreign studies they are.. They are more concerned than us here in America are and they have moved to a no Diacetyl or ap approach without legality.. There are many companies here now moving to a no D/AP flavor list as the diy and purchased e joos community in ecig grows.. Woot success...

Whats wild even China companies have had no D?AP in their juices because they know the issues first hand with using it.. Translating some scientific sheets on it in Chinese, its horrible sauce and pre 2000 caused many deaths there...

IDK that story of a whole factory floor with health issues and many yards away in an enclosed office environment having lung issues I would say there's possibly gonna be issues for heavy vapers..

 

[WharfRat1976]

Went to a vape meet and every flavor I tried (20+), contained D/AP. I could taste it. That greasy melted butter flavor. Some had so much that it left a coating on my tongue. Granted I was focusing on cereal and dessert flavors which stacks the sample pool because those flavors are the most likely to contain them. One flavor was so laden with it that I could smell it when I opened the bottle (away from my face). This was a small meet.

I went to a large convention a few months ago and I could smell it in the air and just about every flavor contained it.

I've been to a few other meets and conventions and I saw the same thing. The industry is saturated with dessert flavors, cereal flavors are on a plateau, and tobaccos are a no-show. Also, I didn't hear one question about D/AP. Not a single vendor made claims. Not a single lab sheet to be seen.

I enjoy people watching and vapers are an interesting group, but not a single question? Not a single claim? Either I really missed it or is this a "forum issue"? Is this an issue of the people who frequent forums who, it seems logical to me, would be the most involved with vaping. People might show up at meets and cons just to get free samples and make some purchases, but forum visitors don't have any extrinsic rewards for our participation. We come here to discuss vaping, learn, and share information. It's all intrinsic rewards.

We see D/AP as a big issue for our industry. We see it as something everyone is concerned about. Are we falling victim to sample bias?

I've seen thousands of vendor booths. If this issue really was a big issue for vapers in general, shouldn't I have seen at least one "lab results available upon request" or heard one vendor say, "And all of our flavors have been tested for D/AP." They're quick to mention labs and clean rooms even though I didn't hear anyone ask that.

Are my observations incomplete?

Is my logic flawed?

Or is this an issue for a vocal minority?

 

[WharfRat1976]

really, lol? ... you could smell it in the air?

If my neighbor vapes it I can feel it seeping into my pores, through the walls.

 

[Visus]

The study proves that even the "overrun" juices are still 100 times lower than cigarettes. Did you even read it?

Sorry poster no, analogs have up to 1500ppm of diacetyl some upwards of 3000 depending on curing theres been some e joos in a 3ml sample above 2300ppm. Thats a 3ml sample @ 2300ppm in a 30-50-100ml bottle it surpasses a whole pack of analogs.. Some vapers vape 50+ml a day...