Decomposition of VG to acrolein

[surbitonPete]

For some reason I do believe that horrible fatty taste I sometimes get could be acrolyn. It doesn't frighten me compared to what I was inhaling from tobacco but I would sure prefer not to have that particular taste or even that health risk if it's possible. Might as well have vaping as safe as it can possibly be.

 

[exogenesis]

I too would like to know what Letzin vapes that produces no gunk at all.

Nuck :

..snip..
In the report it would have been good to see a GC/MS
calibration-standard for acrolein, so you could point to a place on the
'Smoked Cartridge' ' test's GC (& MS) traces & be able to say 'definately no acrolein peak'.

Unfortunately that 'Smoked Cartridge' GC trace was possibly somewhat
too noisy & complex for that anyway?
But it shows there was certainly a substantial signal for components between
the clear argon and glycerol/glycerol-like peaks.

This signal could be obscuring, or possibly even be acrolein
or other acrolein-like decomposition products.
And the MS traces for this sample are not given, either MS was not done on
this sample, or they were not presented due to being too confused/difficult to interpret.
..snip..

Personally I'm not assuming presence or absence of things in the vapour,
(that aren't in the original liquid) -
don't you agree it would be nice to know though?


Thanks for the links Kate, will bowse a bit.

 

[Nuck]

I too would like to know what Letzin vapes that produces no gunk at all.

Nuck :


Personally I'm not assuming presence or absence of things in the vapour,
(that aren't in the original liquid) -
don't you agree it would be nice to know though?


Thanks for the links Kate, will bowse a bit.

Exo...absolutely, but there are conclusions being reached that are not backed up with even anecdotal evidence (at least none that I could find in the thread). I'm all for finding the answers, but given the number of people that read these posts, I think it's also important to not scare them away from what, by all indications, is a safer option than PG. If new information becomes available I'll be the first to switch.

 

[surbitonPete]

As well as not wanting to vape polyester .....I originally thought the black gunk must be something to do with polyester getting onto the coils, it looked so much like melted plastic and boiled plastic...but changing cart material made no difference, so that theory was wrong.

 

[Nuck]

As well as not wanting to vape polyester .....I originally thought the black gunk must be something to do with polyester getting onto the coils, it looked so much like melted plastic and boiled plastic...but changing cart material made no difference, so that theory was wrong.

It is possible that more than one cart material produces buildup. It is also possible (even probably) the flavours are another culprit (perhaps the combination). I will post a pic of a very old, very used atomizer in a bit. I'm even willing to sacrifice my first born atty to show you what I mean

 

[kinabaloo]

As for acrolein from VG - look at any MSDS or text book on glycerine. What happens when the VG is mixed with water, PG, alcohol in various proportions would be comlplex. Perhaps there's a % level below which decomposition no longer occurs, perhaps not. We can find out.

It is possible that little acrolein is released in the vapor even though produced at the coil. At this stage we don't know. It is unlikely to be zero but it is not necessarily a big concern

Dry residues from some flavorings, and perhaps the nicotine preparation, will also contribute to the gunk.

It is important for the vaping community to determine if there is a problem and self-correct it if so. Can you imagine the field-day to come if this issue is heads-in-sanded till discovered by the FDA and plastered all over the media.

One might wonder why certain people are so against even looking into this; some might suspect an undercover attempt to keep an issue buried till the appropriate moment for discrediting vaping and ruling it banned.

 

[surbitonPete]

It is possible that more than one cart material produces buildup. It is also possible (even probably) the flavours are another culprit (perhaps the combination). I will post a pic of a very old, very used atomizer in a bit. I'm even willing to sacrifice my first born atty to show you what I mean

The thing is Nuck I have even had a spell with using the metal wicking mesh as a cart material and another spell of only dripping ...but nothing has made made any noticeable difference to the amount of gunk .....nor has any of the different juices or flavours that I have tried so far....although at the moment I am testing the ecopure and hoping there might be some difference with that because it has so few additives. If you don't get any gunk...I have yet to work out why.

 

[exogenesis]

It is possible that more than one cart material produces buildup. It is also possible (even probably) the flavours are another culprit (perhaps the combination). I will post a pic of a very old, very used atomizer in a bit. I'm even willing to sacrifice my first born atty to show you what I mean

I'm certain that the 'heavier' flavours (e.g. very much especially Lorann
Coffee) produce a lot of gunk.

Moses would be proud of you


Wish we could avoid the politics (Kin)

 

[Nuck]

As for acrolein from VG - look at any MSDS or text book on glycerine. What happens when the VG is mixed with water, PG, alcohol in various proportions would be comlplex. Perhaps there's a % level below which decomposition no longer occurs, perhaps not. We can find out.

It is possible that little acrolein is released in the vapor even though produced at the coil. At this stage we don't know. It is unlikely to be zero but it is not necessarily a big concern

Dry residues from some flavorings, and perhaps the nicotine preparation, will also contribute to the gunk.

It is important for the vaping community to determine if there is a problem and self-correct it if so. Can you imagine the field-day to come if this issue is heads-in-sanded till discovered by the FDA and plastered all over the media.

One might wonder why certain people are so against even looking into this; some might suspect an undercover attempt to keep an issue buried till the appropriate moment for discrediting vaping and ruling it banned.

You seemed to rule out the possibility that no acrolein is produced and I'm not sure why. The lab reports published recently on the vapour by Intellicig showed no signs of acrolein and you seem to either ignore this or discredit it.

I do agree that it is in everyones best interest to find out if there is a problem, but you seem to draw conclusions (read about 10 posts back) that are not supported by the evidence.

I have no idea who you are implicating in an undercover attempt but that conspiracy nonsense really has no place in rational debate.

 

[surbitonPete]

This gunk is from about 9 days of vaping but not all of those days using only this coil......and most of the gunk broke away with the fibre glass that was stuck to it when I pulled off the bridge. My coils always look similar to this whatever I seem to do.


View attachment 1943

 

[Nuck]

This gunk is from about 9 days of vaping but not all of those days using only this coil......and most of the gunk broke away with the fibre glass that was stuck to it when I pulled off the bridge. My coils always look similar to this whatever I seem to do.


View attachment 1943

Holy hell. Mine have never been close to that bad. I'll be back in a bit after a dissection, I have a new web cam thats pretty good so I should be able to get a decent pic now.

 

[kinabaloo]

Wish we could avoid the politics (Kin)

I quite agree. But given the insinuation that I might be a shill or whatever, That's my riposte. And a fair point - why are people so against even looking at the issue?

Maybe Letzin simply really cares about vaping and misunderstands why we are looking at it. This has never been an issue about health scare.

Because when the FDA testing is done, it will not matter that vaping is 500 times less toxic than analogues; it a toxin is found that could be end of the road.

 

[exogenesis]

Yes, I agree there.

Pete, thats pretty bad for partial 9 days usage,
interesting that your ceramic pot looks very clean.

What did you say you were vaping again ?

 

[surbitonPete]

Yes, I agree there.

Pete, thats pretty bad for partial 9 days usage,
interesting that your ceramic pot looks very clean.

What did you say you were vaping again ?

From all the coils I have taken apart so far that's actually not too bad for as long as 9 days!!.....in fact that was the one that lasted longer than usual using the e-cigs apple juice with some vodka added to it.

 

[kinabaloo]

You seemed to rule out the possibility that no acrolein is produced and I'm not sure why. The lab reports published recently on the vapour by Intellicig showed no signs of acrolein and you seem to either ignore this or discredit it.

I do agree that it is in everyones best interest to find out if there is a problem, but you seem to draw conclusions (read about 10 posts back) that are not supported by the evidence.

I have no idea who you are implicating in an undercover attempt but that conspiracy nonsense really has no place in rational debate.

1) Acrolein will be produced when VG is heated to its boiling point (that much is fact); little might be in the vapor if it reacts/degrades immediately on the coil. A detectable level of acrolein might only occur when the coil is running dry, the time when the bad smell is noticed.

In fact, when evidence arises pointing to no acrolein I always feel that is good news, say so, and still hope that will be the case somehow.

2) 'conspircy nonsense' - not me who introduced this. In countering conspiracy nonsense aimed at me i pointed out the obvious flaw: there's no point scaring a few peple with non-fact, but there could be reason to detract from uncovering something that could be corrected quite easily and would harm vaping considerably if left in place. This is rational. I don't see an undercover attempt, I see only ignorance and well-meaning posts, but my point is that a shill, if there was one, would want to keep the issue hidden and uncorrected for now for use in destroying vaping at a later date.

 

[kinabaloo]

Pete - looks like some of the deposit has broken off (on the right) or the buildup was only on one side?

Exo - Isn't the ceramic pot always sparkling clean?

The B.P. for PEG-400 is the same as gllycerine: 290C, so quite high. But PEG-400 is heat stable.

 

[surbitonPete]

Pete - looks like some of the deposit has broken off (on the right) or the buildup was only on one side?

Exo - Isn't the ceramic pot always sparkling clean?

The B.P. for PEG-400 is the same as gllycerine: 290C, so quite high. But PEG-400 is heat stable.

yes kinba....some of it broke off with the wrapping of the fibreglass wicking material.

I am liking the sound of the PEG

 

[surbitonPete]

Hey guys I don't want to worry you but.....I had some small circular metal mesh filters very similar to the wicking mesh that I picked up in my old engineering work....If I remember correctly they were used in pnumatic switches. Anyway I have cut a peice to the size of my mouthpiece and inserted it into my mouthpiece between me and the vapour so the vapour I am breathing runs through a sort of filter.....and I am finding it is catching little tiny bits of the black gunk!

 

[Letzin Hale]

Hi Alan ....I don't worry much over what I am vaping....in my mind it just cannot be compared to what I was smoking...the only thing that did worry me was the possibility of vaping bits of the polyester but I don't use that any more. ......I have no idea why your coil is clean though.....what make of juice do you vape?........I have tried TW and Janty and the e-cigs juicel and they all cover the coils in black gunk within just a few days.

I've been using samples of ECOpure that I, along with a few others, were asked to test. I avoided using the name before as I do not want to be wrongly accused of any kind of conspiracy or cover up.
Alan.

 

[exogenesis]

Pete, is e-cigs apple juice mainly a PG or VG liquid?

Black bits in that filter - could you just see them on that mesh,
or did they come out when you washed the mesh, or the atomizer ?