DNA 200 Watt

[tehdarkaura]

Seeing a lot of talk about charging lately so figured I should bring up some concerns and questions from posts I've seen with the charging of these devices. Since the first week of having mine and seeing it pull almost 1 Amp through my PC USB a couple times it's been a concern and I always watch it closely when charging. Understanding that these boards are supposed to be limited to 500mA when connected to a PC I don't really understand how this can be.
View attachment 508662

A few examples I'll post of some others charging above the stated and some failures that may be related.

This poster was charging at 1.14 A and found a missing component on the board.
Battery not charging - DNA 200 Early Adopters Forum
View attachment 508663


This is mine and to the best of my knowledge there is nothing wrong with the board. Note that each cell is at 4.2V but pulling almost 1 Amp.
Board fried while mod was connected to PC overnight - DNA 200 Early Adopters Forum
View attachment 508664

This is the highest current being pulled that I've seen captured at 3.082 amps, cells initially balanced then became imbalanced
Weird cell voltages, board not working - DNA 200 Early Adopters Forum
View attachment 508666



This poster posted his USB Bus was fried when connecting the device to his PC.
Charging circuit blew my motherboard/USB/Ethernet rail - DNA 200 Early Adopters Forum

"I was attempting to program a DNA 200 Chip today and upon plugging it into my PC the PC turned off I smelled a faint burning smell and upon turning the machine back on found my USB2 Bus / Ethernet controller to be fried. I yelled like a psycho and replaced the chip with a working one then set the bad chip aside for testing, pretty ...... off about the PC btw."

This poster reports his device caused his PC to flag USB Over Current and reboot and then temporarily crash his USB group.
Tugboat DNA 200 completely dead. - DNA 200 Early Adopters Forum
"Today mid puff my tugboat DNA 200 stopped working. No matter what I do it will not turn on. When I got home I tried hooking it up to Escribe. When it was plugged in to the USB as my computer booted I got a USB over current status. And my PC rebooted after 15 seconds. The next try I booted my computer up and then plugged it into the usb. Once it was plugged in it killed that group of USB plugs until I rebooted my computer. When I plug in my Vaporshark DNA 200 everything is fine and it connects to escribe. Has anyone seen any issues like this? And any possible solutions?"

There are more similar posts some reporting dead boards while charging and some dying shortly after charging. Lot of imbalanced cells or balanced and then they become imbalanced which seems very odd to have this many reports of bad cells.

I don't see anything in the data sheet that indicates there's USB Over Current Protection.
So this makes me wonder do these boards have USB Over Current Protection?
Shouldn't they if they don't?
If they do what could explain these examples?
If they do is it only mechanical in nature? As in by utilizing only the electronic components?
Couldn't there be USB Over Current Protection logic programmed into the firmware? I don't think there is since mine appears to work as designed and some of the others appear the CPU is functioning and communicating via USB with the PC and Escribe but no software restrictions appeared to be activated when they were charging above 500mA while connected to PC.
What about circuit isolation, couldn't there be isolation so if a component failure does occur it could be rendered inoperable or as an open circuit so as not pull more current than it was designed for and potentially damage the source charging power source?

Has anyone else had concerns with these reports? Not so much for the battery packs as I know they're well capable of taking higher charge but for the PC's and the Boards charging circuit.
These concerns make me hesitant to connect to my PC so I usually try to charge with an external charger. But when connecting to my PC I always monitor it very closely to make sure it's not pulling more amperage than it should. My electronics knowledge is mostly forgotten so I have a lot of questions & concerns. Hopefully one of you EE type can answer some of these questions.

The "burden" of deciding or controlling the USB current limit is never left to the phone/usb drive/what ever.
The computer itself always controls how much current is allowed to flow through a USB port...
also, usb3 supports 900ma -- onboard "charging ports" support 1.5A...

 

[Vlad1]

The "burden" of deciding or controlling the USB current limit is never left to the phone/usb drive/what ever.
The computer itself always controls how much current is allowed to flow through a USB port...
also, usb3 supports 900ma -- onboard "charging ports" support 1.5A...

It seems your suggesting there is no USB Over Current Protection or need for it since the "burden" is decided upon by the computer. Wonder why they would bother to tell the computer that they were going to draw 500mA. I've also read there are some USB that can go up to 5A but that's not really an answer to my questions on why and what protection the board has to prevent it from pulling much more than the stated spec.

 

[tehdarkaura]

It seems your suggesting there is no USB Over Current Protection or need for it since the "burden" is decided upon by the computer. Wonder why they would bother to tell the computer that they were going to draw 500mA. I've also read there are some USB that can go up to 5A but that's not really an answer to my questions on why and what protection the board has to prevent it from pulling much more than the stated spec.

View attachment 508946

I think you're misinterpreting the reference to a usb1.0 spec incorrectly as saying the dna board will limit at the stated current...
the board monitors the voltage level (as has been previously pointed out) and when that voltage level starts to drop that's an indication you've reached what that USB port can supply.

It's a 1 amp charger... so if it draws more than 1A then there is likely a problem...
If it draws more than 500ma on your computers usb port, that means your usb port is providing that much current... not a problem with the dna since it doesn't control the current the USB port feeds and there are multiple types of usb ports and hubs that are designed to deliver greater than 500ma -- so likely isn' a problem with the port either...

 

[Vlad1]

I think you're misinterpreting the reference to a usb1.0 spec incorrectly as saying the dna board will limit at the stated current...
the board monitors the voltage level (as has been previously pointed out) and when that voltage level starts to drop that's an indication you've reached what that USB port can supply.

It's a 1 amp charger... so if it draws more than 1A then there is likely a problem...
If it draws more than 500ma on your computers usb port, that means your usb port is providing that much current... not a problem with the dna since it doesn't control the current the USB port feeds and there are multiple types of usb ports and hubs that are designed to deliver greater than 500ma -- so likely isn' a problem with the port either...

I don't think I'm misinterpreting anything but could be for sure that's why I posted my questions.
What I read from John's comment was they would not violate USB spec and would always limit current to 500mA when attached to PC USB. And here's the link with the Specs he provided for reference to what he was talking about. http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt118/slyt118.pdf

I'm apparently not the only one that has interpreted this to mean the board will limit to 500mA when connected to PC's. I fully understand that connecting a random charger capable of 10A will allow the board to charge at it's maximum of 1Amp in my case. That's not what my questions are about. Perhaps I need to break the questions out so they're more clear.

 

[BlueridgeDog]

if i were to downgrade to Yosemite n followed ur tutorial, will there be any success of connecting my mac to a dna device?

You should get success, but at this point with a working El Capitan, I suggest VM Fusion. It is very similar to VirtualBox. The Escribe incompatibility with El Capitan is one of two issues keeping me from upgrading my primary system. I did upgrade one of my office Macs and find that i like it....

 

[Mad Scientist]

I don't think I'm misinterpreting anything but could be for sure that's why I posted my questions.
What I read from John's comment was they would not violate USB spec and would always limit current to 500mA when attached to PC USB. And here's the link with the Specs he provided for reference to what he was talking about. http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt118/slyt118.pdf

View attachment 508954


I'm apparently not the only one that has interpreted this to mean the board will limit to 500mA when connected to PC's. I fully understand that connecting a random charger capable of 10A will allow the board to charge at it's maximum of 1Amp in my case. That's not what my questions are about. Perhaps I need to break the questions out so they're more clear.
View attachment 508957

I remember the same thing -- if data is detected then it limits itself to 500mA current draw. I think you confused the issue talking about what's happening on the PC end of things. So ok, forget about the supply -- just muddies the waters; If your board is drawing a lot more than 500mA from a PC, there may well be something wrong with the board. As you indicate, the published specs and info say it's not supposed to do that. Do you have any other questions?

 

[Vlad1]

I remember the same thing -- if data is detected then it limits itself to 500mA current draw. I think you confused the issue talking about what's happening on the PC end of things. So ok, forget about the supply -- just muddies the waters; If your board is drawing a lot more than 500mA from a PC, there may well be something wrong with the board. As you indicate, the published specs and info say it's not supposed to do that. Do you have any other questions?

Edit: Adding Link to original post with reference material.
DNA 200 Watt

Yea I had quite a few. I figured they may have been muddied up with such a long post so I'll break them out of my original post to make it easier.


I don't see anything in the data sheet that indicates there's USB Over Current Protection.

So this makes me wonder do these boards have USB Over Current Protection?

Shouldn't they if they don't?

If they do what could explain these examples?

If they do is it only mechanical in nature? As in by utilizing only the electronic components?

Couldn't there be USB Over Current Protection logic programmed into the firmware? I don't think there is since mine appears to work as designed and some of the others appear the CPU is functioning and communicating via USB with the PC and Escribe but no software restrictions appeared to be activated when they were charging above 500mA while connected to PC.

What about circuit isolation, couldn't there be isolation so if a component failure does occur it could be rendered inoperable or as an open circuit so as not pull more current than it was designed for and potentially damage the source charging power source?

 

[retird]

Yea I had quite a few. I figured they may have been muddied up with such a long post so I'll break them out of my original post to make it easier.


I don't see anything in the data sheet that indicates there's USB Over Current Protection.

So this makes me wonder do these boards have USB Over Current Protection?

Shouldn't they if they don't?

If they do what could explain these examples?

If they do is it only mechanical in nature? As in by utilizing only the electronic components?

Couldn't there be USB Over Current Protection logic programmed into the firmware? I don't think there is since mine appears to work as designed and some of the others appear the CPU is functioning and communicating via USB with the PC and Escribe but no software restrictions appeared to be activated when they were charging above 500mA while connected to PC.

What about circuit isolation, couldn't there be isolation so if a component failure does occur it could be rendered inoperable or as an open circuit so as not pull more current than it was designed for and potentially damage the source charging power source?

Lots of questions/suppositions here..... Evolv forum is probably your best place to get answers. Ask John or James.

 

[Vlad1]

Lots of questions/suppositions here..... Evolv forum is probably your best place to get answers. Ask John or James.

All of the referenced posts I used were from the Evolv forum, some have been out there for quite some time but are mysteriously overlooked and unanswered by the Evolv staff.

 

[retird]

All of the referenced posts I used were from the Evolv forum, some have been out there for quite some time but are mysteriously overlooked and unanswered by the Evolv staff.

But your questions/suppositions you make were not asked with the reference posts you mentioned. If you truly want answers you could ask them there as the people qualified to answer them are not posting etc. here.

 

[Aal_]

Guys what is the best source of Ti wire? Sweetspot does not ship oversees

 

[macis]

You should get success, but at this point with a working El Capitan, I suggest VM Fusion. It is very similar to VirtualBox. The Escribe incompatibility with El Capitan is one of two issues keeping me from upgrading my primary system. I did upgrade one of my office Macs and find that i like it....

i might try VirtualBox first since its free. i can upgrade to el capitan again once my son got his new P.C.

i dunno if i'll be stepping over the boundaries here, but would it be ok for u if i were to drop u a P.M regarding this Mac stuffs if i really bought a dna200 device?

 

[BlueridgeDog]

Glad to help however I can. You should also post in the Mac support thread on the Evolv forum. As an aside, there is no rush to upgtrade...I have one that I upgraded and two that I have not and see little improvement to rush out and strive for.

 

[macis]

Glad to help however I can. You should also post in the Mac support thread on the Evolv forum. As an aside, there is no rush to upgtrade...I have one that I upgraded and two that I have not and see little improvement to rush out and strive for.

actually i'm already using el capitan now, so i might restore yosemeti from my time machine b4 installing VB.

i'll start posting at the Mac support thread on Evolv once i got a dna200 device. i'm still on the fence between the dna200 or sx mini ml, all becos of the lacked of mac support on evolv.

i really appreciate ur helped Sir, especially the tutorial u posted on Evolv.

will contact u again once i started out.

 

[Mad Scientist]

Edit: Adding Link to original post with reference material.
DNA 200 Watt

Yea I had quite a few. I figured they may have been muddied up with such a long post so I'll break them out of my original post to make it easier.


I don't see anything in the data sheet that indicates there's USB Over Current Protection.

So this makes me wonder do these boards have USB Over Current Protection?

Shouldn't they if they don't?

If they do what could explain these examples?

If they do is it only mechanical in nature? As in by utilizing only the electronic components?

Couldn't there be USB Over Current Protection logic programmed into the firmware? I don't think there is since mine appears to work as designed and some of the others appear the CPU is functioning and communicating via USB with the PC and Escribe but no software restrictions appeared to be activated when they were charging above 500mA while connected to PC.

What about circuit isolation, couldn't there be isolation so if a component failure does occur it could be rendered inoperable or as an open circuit so as not pull more current than it was designed for and potentially damage the source charging power source?

The current draw for charging has to be done through software. As indicated, based on the specs and info provided by evolv, if it draws more than 500mA when data lines are present it is malfunctioning.

You keep talking about having the connected device protect the supply and I keep telling you the supply is supposed to be engineered to protect itself as well as the device. Much more can go wrong with what's connected to a USB port than drawing over 500mA -- as mentioned a shorted 10c cable will do the trick. If that fries a supply or bus, it deserves to die. So to answer your question, no, the device side of a USB interface should not be required to have a completely fail safe overcurrent protection system built into it because doing so is 1. Impossible (the failure could be upstream of the device, such as in the cable) and 2. Wasteful because a truly fail safe system where device current draw is programmable would be relatively expensive on the device end. On the supply end, it can be much cheaper to design a true fail safe because the supply has a fixed absolute max current it is designed to deliver in addition to the fact that one supply is intended to connect to a number of devices. As an example, a good hub design would have one of these at each port: Fast-Tripping Resettable Fuses Can Protect USB Circuits

 

[vapealone]

Guys what is the best source of Ti wire? Sweetspot does not ship oversees

They are praising SV's Gr1 for its pureness, cleanness, malleability, so it will be my next purchase.
ATM I am using Crazy Wire and it does the job, quite springy tho. They are both in the UK.
Zivipf in Germany has also TiGr1 but it is reported super dirty and springy.

 

[nic_fix]

whoa ktm. if I could like that twice I would! holy smokes I mean I am getting 1 port doodoo chargers at wally world for 20 bucks. that thing is a beast and 11 bucks to boot. ordered. thanx.

I think it is good sense not to plug any battery based device into a pc other than for setting it up. a lot of people do not know that to be fair. even back in the day the original evic could well fry a motherboard. at least now it will just fry the usb controller. still, it pretty much leaves you with a dead pc.

 

[tchavei]

Guys what is the best source of Ti wire? Sweetspot does not ship oversees

Stealthvape. I like it better than zivipf

 

[Aal_]

Stealthvape has issues at the moment. They scrapped the old Ti wire and their v2 is only 24ga. Bummer.

 

[KTMRider]

whoa ktm. if I could like that twice I would! holy smokes I mean I am getting 1 port doodoo chargers at wally world for 20 bucks. that thing is a beast and 11 bucks to boot. ordered. thanx.

I think it is good sense not to plug any battery based device into a pc other than for setting it up. a lot of people do not know that to be fair. even back in the day the original evic could well fry a motherboard. at least now it will just fry the usb controller. still, it pretty much leaves you with a dead pc.

I paid $15 for it a few months ago and well worth it. It has 5 ports but can only provide 8a total which hasn't been a problem for me. The most I've had on the charger at one time is a DNA200 (1a), VS DNA200 (2a) and a rDNA40 (2a).

It's not a problem charging from a computer USB port but if you need more than 500ma, you need a driver to allow it. If you don't have a driver installed and it's pulling more than 500ma, you have a problem with the USB port on the computer, cable or device you're trying to charge. The only exception I can think of is if you have a charge only cable where pin 2 and 3 are jumped to allow full power charging.