DNA40 thoughts and opinions

[rusirius]

I know what the return rate is and while it's higher than previous dna boards, it is nowhere near staggering. ... Always know that forums and groups are largely for asking others how to resolve issues, so you get a tremendously skewed view of the problem rate.

I know we've held some conversations before, but I don't know who you are or how you have access to information such as return rate. I'm assuming you must work at Evolv, otherwise there would be no way to know if that information was accurate anyway. Regardless, here's my only issue with this... I get what you're saying, and I understand that it's likely you'll see more posts from those who have bad boards than those who have good. If this was a 1 for 1 comparison then I'd completely agree. But where I have to take a step back and wonder is when I see time and time again those with multiple failures. Even on this forum alone I've seen MANY different people who have had multiple boards that were bad. I've only purchased 2... One was good and one was bad... But I've seen others who have ordered 3, 4, 5 or even 6 boards/devices and had a staggering percentage of them bad. Just in the last couple days I saw a report of 4 bad out of 5... Now again, if these were all purchased at the same time from the same vendor, then maybe they were all in the same batch or whatever, but these were different mods purchased from different vendors... Probability isn't my strong point, but when I've seen multiple people who get a 75% or higher bad to good board rate it just doesn't make sense that there isn't a very high percentage of bad ones out there... If one person had such an encounter then it could be chalked up to chance, but I've seen at least 3 reports (maybe several more but I don't want to overstate just in case my memory doesn't serve) on this forum alone, as well as several others on other forums where the number of boards they've purchased is > 4 and had at LEAST 50% and in many cases 75+% of them bad. The probability just doesn't stand that if the failure rate is relatively low these samples would be so high. At least not in my opinion. Even the OP in this post just received a brand new board directly from Evolv 5 days ago and it too had the same problem.

I mean the bottom line is I love my working DNA40. But it does irritate me a little that I had to pay to ship one of them back to be "fixed" when it was a defect out of the box. On top of that the possibility that the replacement I could receive could also experience the same problem? That's speculation, but it's happened to the OP so it could happen to me as well.

I don't agree that it was the fault of the beta testers... I honestly throw the blame directly at Evolv... It was stated that 2 of the what? 36? original beta testers had an issue with their boards. And that's assuming that others didn't actually have bad boards and not know it? Did evolv just send these out? Or did they give any guidelines for testing? If you are beta testing a product you want to make sure your base is evenly distributed... Meaning in this case you want to have people who use kanthal only builds, people who use heavier gauge nickel builds, lighter gauge nickel builds, dual coils, single coils, different environments, different usage patterns, etc... How can you do that with only 36 testers in the first place? If you want to start with those 36 and then expand out fine, I get it, but to only use 36 for testing before a full scale release? I dunno, that just seems odd in my opinion. How many of those 36 vape at high wattages? say 35+? It wouldn't surprise me at all if we found the answer to that question was only a couple... My own VERY bad board would glitch out almost instantly at 40W, but I could drop it to 15 or 20 watts and never see a single problem... Again, why you want to ensure the widest base possible for testing.

For me personally? I think it sucks... Because what Evolv has done here really is something phenomenal. But honestly because of their silence and these issues it's potentially scared a lot of would be users away. If my second board had been bad? I would have been doing everything I could to get my money back and stayed away myself for who knows how long. It would have left a very bad taste in my mouth and not from the burnt wicking...

I just wish they would have handled things a lot differently... It could have saved them a lot of face in a lot of peoples eyes. Mine included.

 

[Moonbogg]

I was considering a DNA 40, but I am under the impression that it has issues both with the board, as well as with the temp control working correctly due to aluminum oxidation on the device boxes and things like that. Is there a good MOD out there that doesn't have issues? I read the vapor flask doesn't monitor temp right due to oxidation and conductivity issues.

 

[WeirdWillie]

I was considering a DNA 40, but I am under the impression that it has issues both with the board, as well as with the temp control working correctly due to aluminum oxidation on the device boxes and things like that. Is there a good MOD out there that doesn't have issues? I read the vapor flask doesn't monitor temp right due to oxidation and conductivity issues.

Again if you get a good board and you overcome the Ni200 learning curve, it is vaping at it's finest.
As far as device boxes go or DNA40 mods go with corrosion I can't comment on that, because I built mine in a 3D printed enclosure, and strictly followed Evolv's recommendation on wiring with everything going to and from the board itself and not trying to use a floating ground.

 

[Moonbogg]

Again if you get a good board and you overcome the Ni200 learning curve, it is vaping at it's finest.
As far as device boxes go or DNA40 mods go with corrosion I can't comment on that, because I built mine in a 3D printed enclosure, and strictly followed Evolv's recommendation on wiring with everything going to and from the board itself and not trying to use a floating ground.

Thanks. I can see myself making one rather than buying one. Making one seems so much better. Time to go into research mode.

 

[dr g]

My experience working directly with Evolv, as well as others experience would certainly suggest the contrary.
However it doesn't mean that they aren't now testing boards before shipping, but it's pretty evident that they were not up till now, I guess time will tell as the known defect rate continues to decline.
I want it to be clear that I haven't given up on Evolv or the DNA40, Infact I believe the technology is the future of vaping, and I believe that with new technology comes growing pains, but with that being said it doesn't excuse the fact that Evolv did continue to ship untested boards as recently as last week.

There is zero chance they do not test every board they ship, particularly with the issue they are dealing with. You get the idea of the difficulty, then, when they test every board and still see these problems in the field. Personally I think assembly techniques can really affect failure rate, so the problem might not even be happening at Evolv.

The procedure for the DNA30 is shown in this video starting around 46:00

I know we've held some conversations before, but I don't know who you are or how you have access to information such as return rate. I'm assuming you must work at Evolv, otherwise there would be no way to know if that information was accurate anyway. Regardless, here's my only issue with this... I get what you're saying, and I understand that it's likely you'll see more posts from those who have bad boards than those who have good. If this was a 1 for 1 comparison then I'd completely agree. But where I have to take a step back and wonder is when I see time and time again those with multiple failures. Even on this forum alone I've seen MANY different people who have had multiple boards that were bad. I've only purchased 2... One was good and one was bad... But I've seen others who have ordered 3, 4, 5 or even 6 boards/devices and had a staggering percentage of them bad. Just in the last couple days I saw a report of 4 bad out of 5... Now again, if these were all purchased at the same time from the same vendor, then maybe they were all in the same batch or whatever, but these were different mods purchased from different vendors... Probability isn't my strong point, but when I've seen multiple people who get a 75% or higher bad to good board rate it just doesn't make sense that there isn't a very high percentage of bad ones out there... If one person had such an encounter then it could be chalked up to chance, but I've seen at least 3 reports (maybe several more but I don't want to overstate just in case my memory doesn't serve) on this forum alone, as well as several others on other forums where the number of boards they've purchased is > 4 and had at LEAST 50% and in many cases 75+% of them bad. The probability just doesn't stand that if the failure rate is relatively low these samples would be so high. At least not in my opinion. Even the OP in this post just received a brand new board directly from Evolv 5 days ago and it too had the same problem.

I mean the bottom line is I love my working DNA40. But it does irritate me a little that I had to pay to ship one of them back to be "fixed" when it was a defect out of the box. On top of that the possibility that the replacement I could receive could also experience the same problem? That's speculation, but it's happened to the OP so it could happen to me as well.

I don't agree that it was the fault of the beta testers... I honestly throw the blame directly at Evolv... It was stated that 2 of the what? 36? original beta testers had an issue with their boards. And that's assuming that others didn't actually have bad boards and not know it? Did evolv just send these out? Or did they give any guidelines for testing? If you are beta testing a product you want to make sure your base is evenly distributed... Meaning in this case you want to have people who use kanthal only builds, people who use heavier gauge nickel builds, lighter gauge nickel builds, dual coils, single coils, different environments, different usage patterns, etc... How can you do that with only 36 testers in the first place? If you want to start with those 36 and then expand out fine, I get it, but to only use 36 for testing before a full scale release? I dunno, that just seems odd in my opinion. How many of those 36 vape at high wattages? say 35+? It wouldn't surprise me at all if we found the answer to that question was only a couple... My own VERY bad board would glitch out almost instantly at 40W, but I could drop it to 15 or 20 watts and never see a single problem... Again, why you want to ensure the widest base possible for testing.

For me personally? I think it sucks... Because what Evolv has done here really is something phenomenal. But honestly because of their silence and these issues it's potentially scared a lot of would be users away. If my second board had been bad? I would have been doing everything I could to get my money back and stayed away myself for who knows how long. It would have left a very bad taste in my mouth and not from the burnt wicking...

I just wish they would have handled things a lot differently... It could have saved them a lot of face in a lot of peoples eyes. Mine included.

Let's just say I have a lot of experience with these boards. Enough to objectively observe failure rate firsthand, plus I am privy to the estimated numbers for Evolv and some producers. My personally experienced rate is lower than others has been, so that is what makes me wonder how much install technique can exacerbate the issues. The board is definitely not as foolproof as the DNA20/30.

I can assure you as a beta tester that the group was quite diverse and testing was very thorough. And we didn't miss anything.

I can also assure you that Evolv is handling the issue in about the best way possible. And, as you probably now know, in the end the technology is so superior that this will all be a footnote.

 

[rusirius]

Let's just say I have a lot of experience with these boards. Enough to objectively observe failure rate firsthand, plus I am privy to the estimated numbers for Evolv and some producers. My personally experienced rate is lower than others has been, so that is what makes me wonder how much install technique can exacerbate the issues. The board is definitely not as foolproof as the DNA20/30.

I can assure you as a beta tester that the group was quite diverse and testing was very thorough. And we didn't miss anything.

I can also assure you that Evolv is handling the issue in about the best way possible. And, as you probably now know, in the end the technology is so superior that this will all be a footnote.

I could see issues being introduced at install. I'll agree I'm sure most people installing these boards aren't all electronics technicians. For example, I can imagine someone using a small 15W iron for example trying to solder battery wires on. I've seen my fair share of people who weren't very well versed in such matters, even when having access to a good variable temp soldering station turn the heat way down. Their thinking was that less heat means less chance of over heating something and destroying an IC or whatever. What they fail to realize is that often times that's exactly what DOES destroy them. Because if you have too little heat it means it's going to have to stay in contact for much longer, because that heat is sinked away from the joint and feeds into the rest of the board. When you run much higher heat it's in and out quickly. Yes it's much more heat, but that heat stays localized and by the time it disperses and is sinked into other components the heat source is long gone. The iron shouldn't be in contact with the joint for more than half a second or 1 second at most generally. The faster you get in and out the less chance of causing any problems.

BUT... (there's always a but isn't there? ) I've seen many of these multiple bad mod reports with pre-built mods. VF, VS, and even Protovapor. Which again just makes me question everything.

I'm probably WAY off base here, but I've formed my own opinion which is this. I still feel like most likely the "bad board to good board ratio" was very high even if the return rate isn't. I still suspect at least based on my own findings and the postings of users that there may still be a lot of "undiscovered" bad boards out there. Like I mentioned before, my own original board didn't show the glitch unless I was firing at 30 or so watts or higher. And considering how many people I've seen using kayfuns and the like it wouldn't surprise me at all if we found that there were plenty out there who thought they had a perfectly working DNA40 that the moment they decide to crank up the wattage (if they ever do) will find that it really did have an issue all along. That's pure speculation at best, I have no grounds to base that on other than the fact that my own board never showed a problem below about 20W, and I've seen other reports of this as well coupled with the fact that it does seem like a lot of users tend to stay below that range anyway it's not hard to imagine it to be the case. I dunno...

 

[dr g]

BUT... (there's always a but isn't there? ) I've seen many of these multiple bad mod reports with pre-built mods. VF, VS, and even Protovapor. Which again just makes me question everything.

Who says any of those are built by electronics technicians? Well at least before they were hired to build those mods. Anyway, there are no mods that have never had reported issues; the rate is what matters.

I'm probably WAY off base here, but I've formed my own opinion which is this. I still feel like most likely the "bad board to good board ratio" was very high even if the return rate isn't. I still suspect at least based on my own findings and the postings of users that there may still be a lot of "undiscovered" bad boards out there. Like I mentioned before, my own original board didn't show the glitch unless I was firing at 30 or so watts or higher. And considering how many people I've seen using kayfuns and the like it wouldn't surprise me at all if we found that there were plenty out there who thought they had a perfectly working DNA40 that the moment they decide to crank up the wattage (if they ever do) will find that it really did have an issue all along. That's pure speculation at best, I have no grounds to base that on other than the fact that my own board never showed a problem below about 20W, and I've seen other reports of this as well coupled with the fact that it does seem like a lot of users tend to stay below that range anyway it's not hard to imagine it to be the case. I dunno...

As you know with TP you don't need to keep wattage low with kayfuns, etc. in fact you can leave it on 40 for everything and it will work well.

 

[rusirius]

Who says any of those are built by electronics technicians? Well at least before they were hired to build those mods. Anyway, there are no mods that have never had reported issues; the rate is what matters.

True...

As you know with TP you don't need to keep wattage low with kayfuns, etc. in fact you can leave it on 40 for everything and it will work well.

Absolutely, and I do just that (though I do typically try to build setups that can handle 35+ watts well... That gives me a little headroom. But if you've been watching these forums you know that many don't run them that way. There are even those who insist they get more vapor production by setting the wattage lower and not letting it hit TP. Which is silly frankly (unless you've got your TP set way too high). But anyway, the point is, from what I've seen very few use TP in this fashion (the way that I do) instead they set it and then adjust their wattage way down to try to reach a point where the temp they set on TP is never actually achieved by the coil. Which is why I say it's entirely possible there are still bad boards out there that just haven't been discovered yet.

Regardless I've give you one thing though... If you can get a good working board and understand how to build and use it, it's the best vape you'll ever have.

 

[Norrin]

To get away from bashing Evolv for a minute I was wondering (yes I Googled but found nothing) if anyone has made coils for the DNA 40 temp control stuff? Or any word on someone thinking about this. With the 2 new sub-ohm tanks you would think that they could cope with these coils.

 

[NOVA jon]

^^^^^^ dude, your "till I get a new mod" counter is awesome!!

 

[Norrin]

^^^^^^ dude, your "till I get a new mod" counter is awesome!!

Thanks, but just think if I had smoked more I'd be closer to getting it.

 

[xtwosm0kesx]

Let's just say I have a lot of experience with these boards. Enough to objectively observe failure rate firsthand, plus I am privy to the estimated numbers for Evolv and some producers. My personally experienced rate is lower than others has been, so that is what makes me wonder how much install technique can exacerbate the issues. The board is definitely not as foolproof as the DNA20/30.

I can assure you as a beta tester that the group was quite diverse and testing was very thorough. And we didn't miss anything.

I can also assure you that Evolv is handling the issue in about the best way possible. And, as you probably now know, in the end the technology is so superior that this will all be a footnote.

So now the mod makers and home builders are too inept/not electronics technicians and that's why the boards were glitching out?

I love my DNA40, respect Evolv immensely, and do think TP is the future, but that's some STRONG kool-aid you're drinking there friend.

 

[dr g]

Absolutely, and I do just that (though I do typically try to build setups that can handle 35+ watts well... That gives me a little headroom. But if you've been watching these forums you know that many don't run them that way. There are even those who insist they get more vapor production by setting the wattage lower and not letting it hit TP. Which is silly frankly (unless you've got your TP set way too high). But anyway, the point is, from what I've seen very few use TP in this fashion (the way that I do) instead they set it and then adjust their wattage way down to try to reach a point where the temp they set on TP is never actually achieved by the coil. Which is why I say it's entirely possible there are still bad boards out there that just haven't been discovered yet.

Regardless I've give you one thing though... If you can get a good working board and understand how to build and use it, it's the best vape you'll ever have.

In my experience and observation if the problem doesn't happen quickly in the field, chances are it won't happen. That's because of the nature of the issue and the ongoing addressing of it. Also, because there are no commercially built coils for it yet, most who are using it tend to be higher on the enthusiast scale and capable of rebuilding atomizers. It is unlikely that they would not run the wattage up at some point early in their ownership of the device.

So now the mod makers and home builders are too inept/not electronics technicians and that's why the boards were glitching out?

I love my DNA40, respect Evolv immensely, and do think TP is the future, but that's some STRONG kool-aid you're drinking there friend.

No, it's jut a theory I have to explain why the rate seems to vary. I also think mod design is a factor.

 

[SeaNap]

I got an early batch of 4 DNA boards and the first one I used screen glitches very frequently. I did call and talk to Steve over at Evolv and he recommended that I send in all 4 and he will replace them outright with new 1.3 boards. I didnt see the issue until I used Ni200 at 40W. Steve at Evolv confirmed that this was a firmware issue, and reassured me that there was nothing physically I can do to fix the issue.

I did build my own mod (gDeals DNA BF). I can see your point about the installation being a factor. Someone that doesn't know how to solder could make cold solder joints, unintended shorts, or scortch the board/components. I'm an electrical engineer, and I have done my fair share of soldering, not to say I'm not infallible but I really took my time and I have all the proper equipment (Weller WES51, rosin core solder, flux, helping hands, nice tips). The fact that it works great in VW mode, leads me to believe that there was a manufacturing error when programming various batches of boards. As far as statistics (or probability) of a failed chip have to be looked at the batch level eg. one batch may have a 100% screenlock issue where another batch may have 1%, but the probability of getting something from a bad batch is 50/50. A lot of people from the DNA40 co-op had bad chips.

Yes this is unfortunate, and it sucks that I wasted so much time building and soldering everything only to have it not work. BUT I feel they are handling it properly (would be nice if they covered shipping, but almost NO company does this) and most importantly, when it works, it is a fantastic vape. This set-back does not in any way change how I feel about Evolv, or the DNA40.

In hind sight it would be nice if it was able to be user upgradeable, that way we wouldn't have to ship it back we could just reflash. And if I were a betting man I would bet that the next major innovation from Evolv will have this support.

 

[dr g]

In hind sight it would be nice if it was able to be user upgradeable, that way we wouldn't have to ship it back we could just reflash. And if I were a betting man I would bet that the next major innovation from Evolv will have this support.

Good post but on this specific point I wouldn't be so sure. I believe Evolv intends to produce boards which do not need updating, i.e. they are rock solid embedded devices. Also, this is a means of protecting their IP; after all this time, China has yet to successfully copy the operation of DNA20s and 30s so it's been effective.

 

[WeirdWillie]

Good post but on this specific point I wouldn't be so sure. I believe Evolv intends to produce boards which do not need updating, i.e. they are rock solid embedded devices. Also, this is a means of protecting their IP; after all this time, China has yet to successfully copy the operation of DNA20s and 30s so it's been effective.

The Chinese hasn't successfully cloned the DNA20/30 because they decided to push the wattage well beyond practical regulated vaping use to take advantage of western philosophy of bigger is better.
Believe me when I tell you that any electronics/software can be reverse engineered, and every security protocol or algorithm can be broken.
My theory goes like this, China is waiting for the smoke to clear and Evolv to work out the glitching, why spend countless hours trying to hash out current issues, when you can just wait for the original MFG to do all the work, I'm sure by now China can see that temperature protection is and will be the next evolution in the vaping industry and sadly they can and will cash in on it.

 

[Rossum]

I believe Evolv intends to produce boards which do not need updating, i.e. they are rock solid embedded devices. Also, this is a means of protecting their IP; after all this time, China has yet to successfully copy the operation of DNA20s and 30s so it's been effective.

Intentions are all well and good. Nobody intends to ship a product with software bugs. But even the DNA20/30 have a bug that apparently has never been found and killed (the ohm reading locking up). I've been involved with embedded systems since the 1980s. Ever since FLASH replaced EEPROM close to 20 years ago, I wouldn't dream of shipping an embedded system that can't be updated in the field. Why? Because I know there will be bugs. Sometimes they don't turn up for a long time. Making your update process relatively secure is extra work, but if it's done well, it becomes more difficult for someone to get your code that way than it would be for them just to hand the fully programmed device to one of the pirate businesses that specialize in dumping code from programmed MCUs.

The above comments should not be construed as bashing Evolv. I just don't agree with that aspect of their design. I'm not even saying that software bugs are responsible for the glitches that some people are experiencing, but I suspect they play a part. I know from first hand experience that batches of circuit boards can have flaws that don't show up in testing but do show up later in the field. I know that batches of components sometimes don't meet spec and aren't caught in testing. I also know that sometimes, software can be changed to work around hardware problems that are found in the field, and having the ability to update your software can save you a heck of a lot of grief in the form of returns and scrapped hardware.

 

[SeaNap]

Well said Rossum.

I work with many different manufacturing plants and factories, and I know from experience that once a company feels the Pain of a recall, or a mass of field failures, they tend to make a priority out of not only correcting the problem, but making sure that in the future it is easier to field service. I can't imagine the losses (and customer dissatisfaction) Evolv must be having simply because the chip can't be field serviced.

I'm not bashing Evolv, not all new product have a 100% success rate, it's natural to make a mistake and then learn from them. This was mearly speculation about their next future chip design.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Rossum]

Most of the reports of DNA40 problems seem to center around glitchy or otherwise not properly functioning displays, right?

What if it turned out that those problems were actually due to a big batch of bad displays?

 

[rusirius]

Most of the reports of DNA40 problems seem to center around glitchy or otherwise not properly functioning displays, right?

What if it turned out that those problems were actually due to a big batch of bad displays?

It's entirely possible. I saw a post where someone supposedly talked to a tech at evolv who stated it was a firmware issue. Considering some of the very strange behaviors saw out of my unit it's very likely that's the case. It did more than just garble the screen. It would often times drop out of tp mode, change resistance up or down randomly, etc. Things neither of my two good boards now do.