Do you vape juice from China, or only from USA?

[sailorman]

Correction, juice will be the ONLY thing that gets regulated and even then it will only be the nicotine juice.

Agree

Not trusting China business is hardly unfounded. I would love to trust China on all things so I could buy the illegally imported honey to make mead cheap but honey imports weren't blocked for no reason. That's just one example that you probably didn't know about.
I would love to buy cheap juice but I can't because I can't trust the Chinese to produce something I chronically ingest.

Actually, I did know about the honey. It goes back to what I was saying before. If you are the major producer of whatever, you will shoulder most of the problems. U.S. importers were not blameless in the honey situation. They knew what they were buying.

Who is exaggerating and fabricating nonsense about contamination and subpar quality? I see you make the claim of how much US juice is actually Chinese with nothing to back that up. This very thread has claims about US companies mixing in their bathrooms. Seems to me you're the ones coming up with unfounded claims bent on destroying good people's reputations by instilling irrational fears that aren't based on fact. Telling the FDA that US companies are mixing in unclean conditions and lying about their product is what hurts vaping, not me saying I don't trust Chinese businesses.

I never said a bad thing about any U.S. vendor. Any of them could be mixing in unclean conditions. We don't know one way or the other with respect to most of them. All I ever said was that "made in USA" doesn't mean what it implies. That's no secret, in e-juice or any other business. I also don't consider the fact, and yes it is a fact, that most US juice is made with Chinese nicotine to be a bad thing. The fact is that China produces somewhere near 90% of the nicotine available in the U.S.. Besides the pharmaceutical companies, where would it be going? It's cheap and just as likely to be pure as American nicotine is. So far, I haven't seen any lies about any U.S. juice vendor, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from

The more people say they don't trust Chinese juice the more US or EU companies will buy their supplies from US or EU companies. The more those juice makers buy, the more companies will make those supplies. It does nothing to harm vaping. In fact the more it avoids imports the more it makes vaping harder to ban.

Sorry, it doesn't work that way with tobacco products and Chinese nicotine isn't going anywhere anyway. As long as it's around, it will be cheaper. What little is actually made in the U.S. isn't just sitting around waiting for buyers, and I don't see any boom in U.S. nicotine extraction labs. U.S. nicotine is already priced quite high. That indicates a demand, but that demand isn't being met by additional extraction labs. The reason for that is tobacco is not a "free market" crop. There are tobacco allotments, the crops are "spoken for" and they aren't about to allot extra tobacco acreage to make more nicotine in the U.S. You can't just grow as much tobacco as you want in order to meet a demand. So U.S. grown and produced nicotine will be far more expensive. If people refuse to by juice with Chinese nicotine, there won't be enough juice to go around.

If you want to take away the fear club from the antis it is you who should stop making unfounded claims about US companies and encourage more of them to buy their goods from US sources like those who don't trust Chinese sources are doing.
It's not people's fear that is the problem, it's people's lies told in order to attack those with the fears that is the problem.

Tell me one unfounded claim I've made against US companies. There are none. If a company makes juice with American nicotine, and you can afford it, then I encourage you to do so. But I'm not going to buy from an American company that shouts "Made in USA" on their website, but really uses Chinese nicotine and flavorings. And don't even try to claim that isn't happening. It happens in juice, clothing, cars and everything else you can think of.
If you don't trust Chinese sources, that's fine. Buy from an American company that mixes their juice in America with American made flavorings and American made nicotine. Good luck with that. That'll eliminate about 80-90% of vendors from your shopping list. But don't pretend that the majority of US companies use American nicotine or flavorings. They don't.

Johnson Creek makes juice to as strict of conditions as can be and they are no more money than any other US supplied company.
That is another unfounded claim and exaggeration.
So what is the real reason?

Strict conditions never entered the discussion. Please show me where I said anything about JC being expensive or even using Chinese nicotine? I don't know where they get their nicotine. They're big enough that they buy vast amounts and probably buy American, if they wanted to, without paying the premium other juice companies pay. They could buy their own lab. Most juice companies can't do that. Anyway, the issue was the original source of the nicotine and other ingredients from most US vendors, not the biggest one of them all. Nobody claimed that making juice under strict conditions was overly expensive. What is the real reason for questioning claims and accusations nobody ever made? Why am I being accused of doing what I haven't done?

This is the sum total of everything I've posted on this thread:
Most nicotine comes from China in a very concentrated form.
Most flavors are made from Chinese components, regardless of where they are combined.
American and EU nicotine is significantly more expensive than Chinese nic.
The word "sourced" does not mean "originated'.
The words "made in USA" doesn't necessarily mean made from U.S. components (big surprise?).
U.S. companies often take advantage of consumers' failure to understand what "made in USA" really means.
U.S. companies often take advantage of consumer's failure to understand the difference between "sourced from" and "originated from".
In proportion to what they produce, China has no worse a record than American companies (not particularly in relation to nicotine or juice, but everything).
People go to prison in China for putting contaminated products on the market, a thing unheard of in the U.S..
The biggest producer of ejuice in the world is Chinese and their factory is clean.
You can't necessarily say that about U.S. juice makers, with few exceptions where they allow inspections.

Which of those statements is false, exaggerated, fear mongering or whatever else you accused me of?

 

[Vapoor eyes er]

One other consideration when buying pre made juice is to ensure it doesn't contain diacetyl. Some vendors will actually state on their website:
All our juices do not contain Diacetyl
""Diacetyl (IUPAC systematic name: butanedione or 2,3-butanedione) is a natural byproduct of fermentation. It is a vicinal diketone (two C=O groups, side-by-side) with the molecular formula C4H6O2. Diacetyl occurs naturally in alcoholic beverages and is added to some foods to impart a buttery flavor."

In "edible" form, it is fine... but in vapour/gaseous form with long term (no one really knows how long) it is toxic and may cause Bronchiolitis obliterans, which is an irrervisible and potentially fatal lung disease.
So.. of course we are heating and vapouring juices.. so juices that contain this ingredient are avoided like the plague. There may only be very minute or trace levels in the juices that contain Diacetyl, however as with anything you are inhaling, it is best to be safe than sorry.
A common product to find this substance in is Microwavable Butter-flavoured popcorn. Ingestion is not a problem but microwaving and inhaling the vapor it could be."
Before I began to DIY this was my go to guy with non Diacetyl juice but he's in Canada.
JUGHEADS.co We've Got the Vapors !
- temporarily closed till May 4th - May 11th ?

After reading the thread on choice of PG or VG juice, I have a different e-liquid question.

Do you use any e-juice, even if it's from China?

Personally, I've avoided anything that goes "into" my body, or that of my pets, that comes from China.
I buy cartomizers made with USA juice only.

 

[nanovapr]

I only vape juice from my basement, which happens to be in the USA. I use USP certified PG (as if that made a difference) and Kosher VG (as if that made a difference). My nic comes from RTS in North Carolina. There are hairnets/gloves/labcoats/masks and ventilation involved.

I'm not anti-China, I just like what I make better.

 

[Myk]

Agree


Actually, I did know about the honey. It goes back to what I was saying before. If you are the major producer of whatever, you will shoulder most of the problems. U.S. importers were not blameless in the honey situation. They knew what they were buying.


I never said a bad thing about any U.S. vendor. Any of them could be mixing in unclean conditions. We don't know one way or the other with respect to most of them. All I ever said was that "made in USA" doesn't mean what it implies. That's no secret, in e-juice or any other business. I also don't consider the fact, and yes it is a fact, that most US juice is made with Chinese nicotine to be a bad thing. The fact is that China produces somewhere near 90% of the nicotine available in the U.S.. Besides the pharmaceutical companies, where would it be going? It's cheap and just as likely to be pure as American nicotine is. So far, I haven't seen any lies about any U.S. juice vendor, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from


Sorry, it doesn't work that way with tobacco products and Chinese nicotine isn't going anywhere anyway. As long as it's around, it will be cheaper. What little is actually made in the U.S. isn't just sitting around waiting for buyers, and I don't see any boom in U.S. nicotine extraction labs. U.S. nicotine is already priced quite high. That indicates a demand, but that demand isn't being met by additional extraction labs. The reason for that is tobacco is not a "free market" crop. There are tobacco allotments, the crops are "spoken for" and they aren't about to allot extra tobacco acreage to make more nicotine in the U.S. You can't just grow as much tobacco as you want in order to meet a demand. So U.S. grown and produced nicotine will be far more expensive. If people refuse to by juice with Chinese nicotine, there won't be enough juice to go around.


Tell me one unfounded claim I've made against US companies. There are none. If a company makes juice with American nicotine, and you can afford it, then I encourage you to do so. But I'm not going to buy from an American company that shouts "Made in USA" on their website, but really uses Chinese nicotine and flavorings. And don't even try to claim that isn't happening. It happens in juice, clothing, cars and everything else you can think of.
If you don't trust Chinese sources, that's fine. Buy from an American company that mixes their juice in America with American made flavorings and American made nicotine. Good luck with that. That'll eliminate about 80-90% of vendors from your shopping list. But don't pretend that the majority of US companies use American nicotine or flavorings. They don't.



Strict conditions never entered the discussion. Please show me where I said anything about JC being expensive or even using Chinese nicotine? I don't know where they get their nicotine. They're big enough that they buy vast amounts and probably buy American, if they wanted to, without paying the premium other juice companies pay. They could buy their own lab. Most juice companies can't do that. Anyway, the issue was the original source of the nicotine and other ingredients from most US vendors, not the biggest one of them all. Nobody claimed that making juice under strict conditions was overly expensive. What is the real reason for questioning claims and accusations nobody ever made? Why am I being accused of doing what I haven't done?

This is the sum total of everything I've posted on this thread:
Most nicotine comes from China in a very concentrated form.
Most flavors are made from Chinese components, regardless of where they are combined.
American and EU nicotine is significantly more expensive than Chinese nic.
The word "sourced" does not mean "originated'.
The words "made in USA" doesn't necessarily mean made from U.S. components (big surprise?).
U.S. companies often take advantage of consumers' failure to understand what "made in USA" really means.
U.S. companies often take advantage of consumer's failure to understand the difference between "sourced from" and "originated from".
In proportion to what they produce, China has no worse a record than American companies (not particularly in relation to nicotine or juice, but everything).
People go to prison in China for putting contaminated products on the market, a thing unheard of in the U.S..
The biggest producer of ejuice in the world is Chinese and their factory is clean.
You can't necessarily say that about U.S. juice makers, with few exceptions where they allow inspections.

Which of those statements is false, exaggerated, fear mongering or whatever else you accused me of?

You suggesting that any of them could be unclean is much worse than me saying I can't trust ingesting stuff from China.
I am stating why I avoid Chinese juice. You are making an assumption and stating it as fact.

You went further than to say "made in the USA" doesn't mean what it implies. You were giving made up percentages to say nearly every juice mixer in the US was using Chinese ingredients even though they say otherwise. You backed your made up percentage down once you found out about RTS.

Tobacco allotments do not mean this company gets that much. Tobacco allotments are about what the farmers can grow. If there were predestined allotments American Spirit never would've been able to add perique to their line because that was a pipe and cigar tobacco. Tobacco is sold at auction.
Since most of the vapers are ex-smokers and cigarettes burn whether they are inhaled or not I would venture to guess that every increase in the need for more nicotine is met with a decrease in demand for tobacco to go to cigarettes.
Even if it didn't even out and liquid nicotine had more demand than available tobacco the demand could be met by simply growing a higher nicotine content variety to stay within the government limits on how much can be grown. That's not even getting into the fact that nicotine extraction does not require quality tobacco or even tobacco at all.

You keep on claiming US nicotine is quite costly yet everyone who uses US nicotine is managing to make affordable juice.

One unfounded claim was those who claim US nicotine were actually buying Chinese through a wholesaler. Yet RTS says it's extracted right there in NC.

Where you brought Johnson Creek into it was with your claim that, "Ironically, if we keep it up, a day may come when only the Chinese juice companies, and BP, are big enough to meet the FDA standards and still charge less than $10/ml."
They charge the same >$9/15ml range as any company in the US who uses US nicotine.
If they can manage to keep that price meeting those standards before they are required to, the $10/ml is yet another baseless claim.

People go to prison in China WHEN CAUGHT. If it's something like the honey the government is most likely at least allowing the scam of removing the pollen to keep anyone in China from being caught. They wouldn't even need to test. Just looking out the window and seeing a tanker shipping out more honey than they have legal buyers would be enough.

The biggest producer of e-juice in the US is also clean, so what's your point?

From the files of "be careful what you wish for", after I finished my work for the week I'll go through this thread and collect all the US juice maker falsehoods and who said what.

 

[nansc]

I vape anything that tastes good.I think a lot of the US vendors use china based liquids to mix their juices anyway.I mostly mix my own now anyway with flavors from Capella (USA) and Flavor Art(Italy).

 

[elfstone]

"You suggesting that any of them could be unclean is much worse than me saying I can't trust ingesting stuff from China.
I am stating why I avoid Chinese juice. You are making an assumption and stating it as fact."

Now, there - let's not push this to absurd limits. Nobody left the realm of good common sense. With hundreds of vendors, most of them one-person operations, no rules, no regulations, no requirements of transparency, it is a fact that we do not know the conditions some of these vendors work in.

The argument was NOT "American juices are made in poor sanitary conditions"; it was "being made in America alone does not ensure superior working conditions than being made in China" and "we have very little reliable information about the working conditions of the staggering multitude of American vendors ". These are not "lies and exaggerations". The only fault you can find is that they are truisms.

"You were giving made up percentages to say nearly every juice mixer in the US was using Chinese ingredients even though they say otherwise. "

The percentages were made up by necessity and I'm assuming whoever spat them out did so as a figure of speech. There are no percentages, see above: no common rules for disclosure and lack of quality standards and regulation. However, as far as I see it, the reference was not to juice makers who explicitely claim their nicotine or other ingredients are American; the argument was that the statement "made in America" makes no representation as to the origin of the ingredients. From my browsing around, I saw very few vendors making claims as to the ingredients. Again, there are no rules of disclosure, so nobody accused vendors of cheating - just stating an obvious fact. Also, at least two unflavored high nic liquid vendors state they source their nicotine form the same channels as Pharma - which means China/India. There was no assumption made, just an interpretation, again, of the obvious status quo.

If a juice maker states all their ingredients are from the USA, I am willing to take them for their word until proven otherwise. But most juice makers make no such claim.

"They charge the same >$9/15ml range as any company in the US who uses US nicotine."

You are being simplistic. That argument is not about end price (right now, after regulation and taxation that will change). It is about large corporations having higher leverage in negotiating preferential supply chains.

"People go to prison in China WHEN CAUGHT"

Is that a joke, or a serious remark? It's the same everywhere. That argument (a weak one to being with, imo) was that the US business environment tends to have protection in place for high level executives who do bad things, and that punishments are more severe in China. It may, at a stretch, support the contention that the Chinese environment is more deterrent.

"From the files of "be careful what you wish for", after I finished my work for the week I'll go through this thread and collect all the US juice maker falsehoods and who said what. "

I'd love to see that, because then it means you have access to information about the juice makers that I've been dying to see for a long time. Only I couldn't find it.

 

[elfstone]

The fact remains that most of the hardware, and most of the juice components originate from China and other countries with cheap labor and lax environmental regulations where American and multinational companies do their bulk of production. Bashing China, therefore, does indeed cast doubts on the entire vaping business.

 

[xXSHOTDOWNXx]

I only use juice in the U.S. for the simple fact of shipping. If it wouldn't cost so much to ship from china at a fast pace then I wouldn't care. As long as the juice is good..

 

[sailorman]

You suggesting that any of them could be unclean is much worse than me saying I can't trust ingesting stuff from China.
I am stating why I avoid Chinese juice. You are making an assumption and stating it as fact.

Saying that any of them could be unclean is not an assumption. That's a fact. We don't know one way or the other.
You assume you can't trust stuff from China and assume you can trust stuff from the U.S.. I don't know anything more about JC than I do about Dekang, except that Dekang is much larger and I don't hear any problems from either of them. So, I'm assuming both Dekang and JC are o.k.. That doesn't mean all US or China juice makers are good and it doesn't mean they're not. But there are only two Chinese companies that make nearly all of the Chinese juice that's imported. Dekang is by far the largest. If Dekang is clean, then probably 90% of the Chinese juice in America is clean. JC doesn't have nearly that large a market share.
The biggest fact I'm saying is that, with few exceptions, we don't know and I'm not going to assume just because it's a US company, it's automatically cleaner, pure, etc except JC.. Nor will I assume that about Chinese juice, except Dekang, but Dekang is what most Chinese juic is.

You went further than to say "made in the USA" doesn't mean what it implies. You were giving made up percentages to say nearly every juice mixer in the US was using Chinese ingredients even though they say otherwise. You backed your made up percentage down once you found out about RTS.

Yes, because given the amount of Chinese vs American nicotine in the country, there is no way that a majority of juice made here is not Chinese. The majority of juice mixers don't say they don't use Chinese ingredients. The ones that don't, will state it up front because it's a selling point. The ones that say the "source" from the US can, and probably are, getting Chinese juice from a US supplier. So, I stand by that. The amount of nic that RTS makes is trivial compared to the amount imported from China.

Tobacco allotments do not mean this company gets that much. Tobacco allotments are about what the farmers can grow. If there were predestined allotments American Spirit never would've been able to add perique to their line because that was a pipe and cigar tobacco. Tobacco is sold at auction.
Since most of the vapers are ex-smokers and cigarettes burn whether they are inhaled or not I would venture to guess that every increase in the need for more nicotine is met with a decrease in demand for tobacco to go to cigarettes.
Even if it didn't even out and liquid nicotine had more demand than available tobacco the demand could be met by simply growing a higher nicotine content variety to stay within the government limits on how much can be grown. That's not even getting into the fact that nicotine extraction does not require quality tobacco or even tobacco at all.

I didn't say it was alloted by company. It's allotted by farm. So, you can't just grow more if the demand increases. Don't accuse me of saying stuff I don't say. There is a predetermined amount of tobacco grown. Every tobacco plant that is used to extract nicotine is one less plant that goes to the tobacco companies to make cigarettes. If Chinese juice were banned, the amount of tobacco grown here could never keep up with the demand for nicotine extract. That's one reason BP uses Chinese nicotine. They need a lot and don't want to compete for it with Philip Morris. You seriously underestimate the amount of imported nicotine if you think that we could keep up the demand. Now you're talking growing high nic yield tobacco. Yeah, that'll make up the difference. And eggplants. What do you figure that would cost? Every increase in nic demand is NOT met by a decrease in smokers, especially if Chinese nicotine is banned and now you have the pesticide market, the pharma market and god knows who all who uses both pharmaceutical and agricultural grade nicotine all competing for the same number of tobacco plants. The Chinese were importing large quantities of nicotine before anyone knew what an e-cig was. The gov't isn't going to increase the allotment to supply nic for ejuice.

You keep on claiming US nicotine is quite costly yet everyone who uses US nicotine is managing to make affordable juice.

One unfounded claim was those who claim US nicotine were actually buying Chinese through a wholesaler. Yet RTS says it's extracted right there in NC.

Once again, not everyone gets their nic through RTS, and I never said RTS used Chinese nicotine. I specifically said that I didn't know where their nic came from. I really never even said that all those who claim US SOURCED nicotine were buying Chinese through a wholesaler. What I said was that claiming "US sourced" doesn't necessarily mean that it's US nicotine. And I am correct about that. So there you are again, twisting my words and accusing me of saying things I never said. And yes, US nicotine is more costly. So is Euro nicotine. You don't even know who uses US nicotine in their juice, so you cannot claim that everyone using US juice is making affordable juice.

Where you brought Johnson Creek into it was with your claim that, "Ironically, if we keep it up, a day may come when only the Chinese juice companies, and BP, are big enough to meet the FDA standards and still charge less than $10/ml."
They charge the same >$9/15ml range as any company in the US who uses US nicotine.
If they can manage to keep that price meeting those standards before they are required to, the $10/ml is yet another baseless claim.

That brought JC into it??? Where?? Where in that sentence are the words Johnson Creek? But I stand by that anyway. If we keep making a fuss about this, ALL ejuice prices will go up because there will be a limited number of juice makers who can undergo the testing that will be required of them. So, BP, Dekang and a small number of large US makers will be all that's left. Do you seriously think the price will stay where it is when that happens? In Lala land perhaps.

People go to prison in China WHEN CAUGHT. If it's something like the honey the government is most likely at least allowing the scam of removing the pollen to keep anyone in China from being caught. They wouldn't even need to test. Just looking out the window and seeing a tanker shipping out more honey than they have legal buyers would be enough.

And when Americans get caught what happens? Nothing. What happens when BP kills 11 people and destroys the Gulf? A couple scapegoat engineers get charged. What happens when bankers and mortgage brokers and Wall St. tycoons run amok and destroy an economy? They get billions of dollars in tax money. How many cases of contaminated food has there been in the US in recent years? Anyone get "caught"? Anyone charged? Anyone go to jail? When an American health ins. company bilks Medicare out of billions, does anyone go to jail? No, they elect the CEO governor of Florida. Don't even bring up government corruption when you're sitting in the US.

The biggest producer of e-juice in the US is also clean, so what's your point?

That one US company is dwarfed by Dekang. The fact it is clean says nothing about all the other companies. Dekang and the one smaller Chinese company, combined, provide nearly all the Chinese juice that makes it to the U.S.. I'm judging the largest company in the world by their record and the fact they sell vast amounts of juice worldwide. You're judging a thousand backyard and kitchen table juice mixers by one not-so-large juice company in the US.

From the files of "be careful what you wish for", after I finished my work for the week I'll go through this thread and collect all the US juice maker falsehoods and who said what.

Please do. It'll be much better than you mangling, distorting and misrepresenting everything I said. But please, don't be taking stuff out of context to appear the way you remember it instead of the way it was written. I'll be checking your work.

 

[DC2]

This discussion is interesting, but snide comments will only serve to arouse anger.

I always check my comments before posting them to see if I could use some editing.
I often find there is a lot of what I am saying that doesn't really need to be said.


I would hate to see this thread closed.
That's all I'm saying.

 

[N rustica]

Different types of tobacco are grown everywhere. I've been googling around with no success, but I was under the impression that many of the Chinese nicotine extraction facilities grow and use a Nicotiana Rustica strain of tobacco which can contain 3-9X the amount of nicotine as Nicotiana Tabacum. This also influences the economics of demanding only "Pure American" extracted nicotine. I also wouldn't be surprised if there is GMO tobacco being grown over there that we are not even aware of.

USP only is about the honesty of the end product. I guess theoretically they can legally lie about anything before that.

So Johnson Creek uses only Chinese nicotine? My guess is they do.

If something goes wrong in China and people die from a bad product and people are caught, they don't go to jail, they are taken outside and shot. If I worked in that environment, I would be sure to be dilligent or not get caught. When you look at the scale of production involved, there is absolutely no proof that Chinese products are any less safe than American products.

 

[newq]

Myk,

I was the one who stated that Juices and mods made in the US could have the same if not in some circumstances worse conditions for manufacturing.

What you are failing to take into account is that I was arguing the distinction that just because it is chinese doesnt mean it is in somehow inferior. The Idea was not to discredit America or the vendors which reside here. Although it is interesting that you would consider it a slant.

Many great things have come from china including the luxury of cheaper Juices along with millions of other goods that come from abroad. I can safely say without a doubt that all my juices have been from US vendors. That does not mean i would object to trying any chinese juices or any other country of origin.

My point was to point out one country and say everything that comes from it is definately a degraded product would be a falsehood as well. Buying American is patriotic and a symbolic gesture granted it does little for the argument then add a sentiment of patriotism which is fine. In my opinion it should be on the forefront of everyones mind more thn it is when they purchase anything. However dont confuse patriotism with quality.

In the end my intent was not to discredit american vendors. Only to provide points that most american vendors use chinese components and that the end products can be no better than where it started. Wether the liquid is mixed here or abrod doesnt matter if it all started over there. Made in american doesnt mean what it used to as now the FTC only requires that 75% of the manufacturing costs be directly attributed to US held goods as this applies to automobiles and textiles.

On a sidenote, Sailor will argue a topic tirelessly , he's intelligent and does his homework, you will have to do your homework to outpace him, better to buy him a beer and shake hands to agree to disagree.

 

[sailorman]

Different types of tobacco are grown everywhere. I've been googling around with no success, but I was under the impression that many of the Chinese nicotine extraction facilities grow and use a Nicotiana Rustica strain of tobacco which can contain 3-9X the amount of nicotine as Nicotiana Tabacum. This also influences the economics of demanding only "Pure American" extracted nicotine. I also wouldn't be surprised if there is GMO tobacco being grown over there that we are not even aware of.

USP only is about the honesty of the end product. I guess theoretically they can legally lie about anything before that.

So Johnson Creek uses only Chinese nicotine? My guess is they do.

If something goes wrong in China and people die from a bad product and people are caught, they don't go to jail, they are taken outside and shot. If I worked in that environment, I would be sure to be dilligent or not get caught. When you look at the scale of production involved, there is absolutely no proof that Chinese products are any less safe than American products.

I'm not sure what nicotine JC uses. Frankly, it doesn't matter one bit. Some people are conflating e-juice and nicotine and bashing both as if they were the same situation. In reality, nicotine is nicotine and as long as it's at least 99.7% pure, I couldn't care less if it came from China, India or Africa.

I do know that the vast majority of nicotine used in America, by agriculture, Pharma and the juice business is imported from China. If, for any reason, there was a ban on the import of Chinese nicotine, we'd be up the creek. There is no way that we can, or would, switch to higher yield tobacco, increase acreage, or start an eggplant growing boom. It just ain't happening in this world.

As to Chinese mixed juice, the fact that the main import is Dekang and they are the biggest in the world, tells me that they must be doing something right. You cannot ship a product like that worldwide if it's not up to snuff in terms of purity. Americans think they have the highest standards, etc. We don't. If Chinese juice was dangerous or impure, there are plenty of other more strict countries that wouldn't allow its import. If it can be imported into Europe, it's safe enough for me. They are much more rigorous in their inspections and what they allow in their food and cosmetics than US regulatory agencies. Taste is a whole different issue.

 

[analogbgone]

I buy USA made juice, I have tried juice made in China also, but bought in the USA. As far as the quality, I prefer the USA made juice. It could be just the brand I bought was sub standard. That doesn't mean mean that all Chinese juice is inferior. Just that I prefer to support US business and know there are some regulations in place, at least I hope so.

 

[sailorman]

I buy USA made juice, I have tried juice made in China also, but bought in the USA. As far as the quality, I prefer the USA made juice. It could be just the brand I bought was sub standard. That doesn't mean mean that all Chinese juice is inferior. Just that I prefer to support US business and know there are some regulations in place, at least I hope so.

What you have to remember is that the Chinese companies ship that same juice all over the world. They have to try to make it taste good to Europeans, Asians, Americans and everyone else. Different countries have different tastes. That's the main reason I don't particularly like Chinese juice. Juiced mixed in the US is usually heavier flavored, Europe is lighter. Both of them are just as likely to be made with Chinese ingredients, only the recipes are different.

I'd just as soon buy 100% US juice made with US nicotine and US flavorings. But I'll settle for juice mixed to an American recipe but made with Chinese juice and flavorings, which is what most U.S. juice is.

BTW, regulations? Not really. There are regulations on USP VG and PG. Nicotine, not yet, but sure to come. Be careful what you wish for though.

 

[hallucinoJEN]

I think the reason why many Americans do not trust the Chinese manufacturers is because of all of the media hype over contaminated food made in China (like the chicken jerky treats for dogs, and the mercury levels in fish). At the same time, there is no standardization in juice production in America right now, so we really don't know what is actually being put into the juice. Until there is R&D on nic juice and a standardization set on how it is made, we will not be able to completely know what is in the nic juice by any one vendor.

 

[Myk]

I'm going to start this off pointing out that mentioning you avoid stuff from China that goes into your body qualifies as "China bashing" and xenophobia. That is what started the US juice company bash fest.
You all really need to learn the difference between personal reasons and bashing. Then learn that you don't defend someone by attacking someone else, all that ends up doing is attacking everyone.

#19, elfstone starts the ball rolling by suggesting claims of US ingredients aren't truthful and that US sourced is "possibly" less than clean.
#25, elfstone suggest American juice mixers use less than sanitary conditions and "sneeze all over your juice". Up to that point nobody has said anything to call Chinese juice makers into question beyond their personal opinion of not trusting China for ingestibles.
#32 wv2win calls into question all US food manufacturers because someone dared mention the pet food. Also the false claim of 100% atty/cartos are Chinese made is made. (You liked this, sailorman. Instead you should've been attacking it as a falsehood that hurts vaping. There is at least one US atty.)
#37, sailorman, "Over the last 30 years or so, inspection regimens by the U.S. gov't have deteriorated to the point that they are no better than many 3rd world countries". I guess attacking the US with a complete lie (we're 3rd world standards) is fair play in your eyes even though no attacks on China have been made. Unless you know someone is making nicotine "cooked up in a basement in Iowa" that would be classed as a lie.
#41, sailorman, "Where's the video of the U.S. juice manufacturing facilities?", knowing full well that Johnson Creek has a video showing their facilities.
#44, wv2win claims that someone's preference to avoid Chinese juices is China bashing. Funny since his defence of that is blatantly attacking US companies.
#49, wv2win claims that having a personal opinion to avoid Chinese products is scaring people. Note this comes after the attack on all US companies.
#51, AlmightyGod claims US juice makers mix in their bathroom. (Again you liked this post, sailorman. If you're worried about people's fear of Chinese juice "hurting vaping" why would you like this claim?)
#55, sailorman admits he knew of JC's video after he claimed US makers didn't have any videos in #41. That's one Chinese company video vs 2 US companies' videos.
#62, sailorman claims as to standards, EU>US>China. This after claiming the US is no better than a 3rd world country in #37. So in his eyes the 3rd world is above China. But it's all rhetoric because the claim US is any better than China's standards contradicts the whole mess.
#68, sailorman claims China "probably" makes 90% of the world's e-juice with nothing to back up that claim.
#88, TTK suggests US juice makers are making in their kitchen or garage with no proof, only the thought there are too many to be otherwise.
#91, sailorman runs with the making juice in the bathroom idea.
#110, sailorman claims, "If you pay less than at least 150-200% of that amount for your nicotine, it is almost certainly NOT extracted in America and it is definitely not European." Wizard labs 60mg/500ml $39.29 (Chinese according to sailorman), RTS 60mg/500ml $47.95. A 22% increase. Depending on how you do your math the most that would be is 122%, not 150%-200%.
Then claims "your nicotine vendor" gets their nicotine from China. My vendor was going to be Wizard for when I DIY, but now it will be RTS.
#112, sailorman claims all the flavorings are made in China. I don't know if that's true and I doubt if you do either.
#118, sailorman correctly states that "don't import" doesn't mean someone else didn't import, but goes on to claim it means someone else definitely did import it.
#120, sailorman again claims wholesalers and vendors get their nicotine from China if they don't they splash it in big letters on their site. Which I did not see at Copper Creek when I emailed them to find out they use US extracted nicotine.
#123, sailorman claims 99.9% of the nicotine in the US and UK is Chinese with no proof of such a claim.
#133, sailorman admits he didn't know RTS was American made nicotine. But then goes on trying to justify a claim that they're not telling the truth.
#140, sailorman backs his 99.9% claim down to 99% having accepted the fact that RTS is US extracted. A whole .9%. "If any juice maker is getting his nic from RTS, he's an idiot if he doesn't splash it all over the first page of his website.", Copper Creek didn't have it clearly marked anywhere and sent me to RTS when I asked for country of origin.

At best the people who don't trust China ingestibles were plinking with a pea shooter to explain their reason. You guys bring out nukes to attack the US as your defense of China. If the claim is people's mistrust is China bashing what do you think you were doing?

elfstone, taking things out of context is not good debate tactics.
Not knowing the conditions is not the same as saying someone mixes juice in their bathroom. It is certainly not equal to me saying I can't trust Chinese juice to suggest that US juice makers are sneezing all over your juice. You do not attack one company to defend another.
The part about "when caught" was about the honey. In the least the Chinese government is turning a blind eye to the removal of pollen to keep their law breaking apiaries from getting caught. It's not like China is going out to try and catch the wrong doers, they only react when they get caught by someone else.
Sailorman made the claim that FDA regulating to high standards like Dekang would drive the price of US juice to $10/ml. Yet JC is as clean as any standards could be and they charge >$10/15ml. Realistically juice mixing is food prep and would not be required to be held to the clean room standards chemical extraction would be held to.
I was talking about what was said in this thread, not juice makers claims. It's claimed people's personal opinions about trusting China is China bashing. Then it seems the defense of the perceived China bashing is to bash the US. Ridiculous.

sailorman

"Every tobacco plant that is used to extract nicotine is one less plant that goes to the tobacco companies to make cigarettes. If Chinese juice were banned, the amount of tobacco grown here could never keep up with the demand for nicotine extract."

I didn't see anyone calling for a ban on Chinese nicotine. For the FDA to do that would be hurting BP so it's not going to happen.
As I already stated, for every mg of nicotine needed for juice that's less mg needed for cigarettes. If your claim is that vaping is attracting new nicotine addicts that is what will get things shut down.
The government limits on tobacco are not such that every leaf grown in a year is smoked in a year. We do not have a tobacco shortage.
I am not talking eggplant. There's at least one plant that has a higher yield than tobacco. There are also common garden flowers about equal to tobacco. When the goal is extracting nicotine there isn't a definite need to use tobacco.

newq, attacking someone to defend someone else isn't a good practice, you end up casting doubt on everyone. You don't have to call all US companies into question to state China is the biggest liquid nicotine producer and they supply US pharmaceutical companies. You can defend without attacking.
I don't care if my nicotine comes from China as long as I don't know about it. As long as I don't have that thought in the back of my head triggering a rush of panic with every puff I'm good. I think it's hilarious people think PG, VG, flavoring and nicotine needs to be mixed in a clean room.
I don't buy beer, I buy grain and make it myself (one reason I think the clean room requirement is hilarious).

 

[newq]

I think I called no one into question but leveled the playing field Myk. You also can't tell me its wrong and walk the fence on the issue. Telling me you lack care for cleanliness is edifying the issue altogether and dismissing the premise that all things being equal , you cannot prove that US juice manufacturers are any cleaner than the Chinese manufacturers. Speaking that most components to make juice are from China only indicates that one things could affect the juice. THE COMPANY mixing it! You should learn not to attack people by asserting that China is lax on its practices.... See convenient isn't it.

Just for the record, I never made any statements regarding the quantity of anything from anywhere , I only drew comparisons which you took out of context to mean that I was attacking US companies somehow.

 

[Vapoor eyes er]

Actually up here in Canada vendors have gotten an Association together and are insisting on quality control and mandatory independent testing among it's members. It's a start.
As for China and trust since I was laid off I've been playing the mkts- did it yrs ago so it wasn't too bad getting back into the flow. The problem with Chinese companies is the business culture and in general the lack of ethics has not changed. Seems it's a weekly situation with Chinese companies (some of them RTOs) getting delisted/ halted/ investigated because of inflated revs/ holdings, illegal insider trading. etc. We are talking about hundreds of billions of dollars worth of fraud...as for the Chinese Govt penalizing anyone I've yet to see it happen. And no I have not gotten burnt on any of these "yet". I also watched a video by an Alberta, Canada Professor who was studying the Ecig movement. He was impressed with quality in N. America but said he was concerned about QC in China. He believed there were a "couple dozen companies" that were suspect. He supports vaping 100%.

I think the reason why many Americans do not trust the Chinese manufacturers is because of all of the media hype over contaminated food made in China (like the chicken jerky treats for dogs, and the mercury levels in fish). At the same time, there is no standardization in juice production in America right now, so we really don't know what is actually being put into the juice. Until there is R&D on nic juice and a standardization set on how it is made, we will not be able to completely know what is in the nic juice by any one vendor.

 

[Myk]

I think I called no one into question but leveled the playing field Myk. You also can't tell me its wrong and walk the fence on the issue. Telling me you lack care for cleanliness is edifying the issue altogether and dismissing the premise that all things being equal , you cannot prove that US juice manufacturers are any cleaner than the Chinese manufacturers. Speaking that most components to make juice are from China only indicates that one things could affect the juice. THE COMPANY mixing it! You should learn not to attack people by asserting that China is lax on its practices.... See convenient isn't it.

It's not the cleanliness of the mixing or even the extracting that has my attention. It's the barrels they are shipped in. I'm basing that on an US barrel factory I lived near that was a literal toxic waste site when they closed down.

Weren't contaminated barrels the source of one of the pet food poisonings? China exports more so they have more barrels floating around thus have better odds for the wrong barrel to get put into the wrong pile.

Cleanliness is relative to need.
All that trash you see blowing along a roadside gets blown into the fields and harvested with the grain and some of it makes it into my beer (I've also seen garbage make it into my pipe tobacco).
There is no need for "clean" in beer making up to the point of post boil so that garbage doesn't matter. Post boil the level of cleanliness required is "sanitary". In my house which is not clean the only infected beer I've had have been on a bottle to bottle basis, never a whole batch. I fixed that problem by increasing the level of cleanliness for the bottles to sterile.
That sanitary need would be the same for juice mixing. It's not the thought that sanitary conditions are a joke but the thought that sterile conditions are what is required.

What contaminant related to cleanliness do you think you're going to inhale in vapor?

(Amazing to have a panic disorder person talking down cleanliness OCD isn't it? )