does dripping/high wattage produce mor carcinogens ?

[Mazinny]

someone posted a link to a NYT article discussing two studies implying that the hotter the liquid gets the more carcinogens specifically formaldehyde it produces. Just wondering if this study has been discussed in the community, especially with a sub-culture of higher and higher wattage that seems to be growing.

The most pertinent part of the article :

Both studies point to the same phenomenon: Intense heat can change the composition of e-liquids, creating new chemicals. Importantly, the researchers said, the chemical reactions apply not only to the liquid nicotine, but also to two other crucial ingredients in most e-liquids: vegetable glycerin and propylene glycol.

Precisely what level of heat causes the reaction is difficult to pinpoint. The Roswell research found, generally, that when battery voltage increased to 4.8 volts from 3.2 volts, toxin levels increased markedly.

link to complete article :

www. nytimes. com/2014/05/04/business/some-e-cigarettes-deliver-a-puff-of-carcinogens.html

 

[The Torch]

Seems like a honest article, but I couldn't finish reading it because one thing is ticking me off into a rage:
When did the studies of what's coming out from cigarettes cause some concern for regulation to the point of making them completely illegal? Now they want to regulate something they admit, and I quote:
"But new research suggests that, even without a match, some popular e-cigarettes get so hot that they, too, can produce a handful of the carcinogens found in cigarettes and at similar levels."

I agree research is needed, but I see too many idiots trying to stop us from enjoying a better life with an extremely easy way to control our nicotine intake. As far as I can tell, and I think I might be omniscient on this single topic in the whole world: no analog cigarette sold in the world has a built-in counter or offers a customizable nicotine content. We'd be vaping water from a spoon and they'd want to regulate that if it replaced death sticks.

Sorry about the rant, it just reaaaallly had to come out.

 

[Mazinny]

I think regulation is probably needed, just not the sort of regulation that would make it impossible for the smaller and medium sized companies to comply. I think it should be mandatory for companies to list ingredients and have liquids in child proof bottles, for example. Not the draconian regulation being suggested however, which only the big three tobacco companies ( Reynolds, Altria and Lorillard ) and a few others like nJoy and Logic could afford.

As far as studies showing harmful substances in vapor, it's key that we accept them and make a point that eCigs are still way, way safer than cigarettes. Let's not pretend that vaping is harmless.

 

[Recycled Roadkill]

This is the stuff that nightmares are made of. I almost can't wait until someone feels it's necessary to tell me about this danger of vaping.

 

[Mazinny]

This is the stuff that nightmares are made of. I almost can't wait until someone feels it's necessary to tell me about this danger of vaping.

well, if they happen to be overweight, just remind them that overeating is also harmful but you don't want to regulate the amount they eat

 

[Steamix]

can, could,would, maybe, perhaps, probably, possibly...

I should stop reading that drivel published by as 'fact'.

Considering the claims are getting ever wilder and more far-fetched we'll be in for some entertaining ( and aggravating ) reads in the near future. Think they're going to blame us for pretty much anything from global warming to famine, the four riders of the apocalypse are drawing near, wielding mods, juice bottles...

Also seems that e-cigs are responsible for causing cerebral ........ in non-vapers...

 

[Nudzacysie]

Lol funny that no battery I know off can go over the 4.2 mark plus compare 4000 (or however much it is) to maybe 5 I'm sorry but I'll take those odds anyday but if it's so harmful then why aren't analogs banned as well if they produce more harmful chemicals? Cars for that matter? Kind of the monopoly that happened between the big 3 auto makers and a few cars trying to come out during their prime age

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[edyle]

Yup; in plain simple terms, when you turn up the voltage too high for your setup, you get BURNT TASTE

 

[The Vagabond]

once again book smart people testing things they scarcely understand!

albeit they don't revel which study or how it was carried out, I'm sure it isn't within the range of temperatures that vapers would vape. lets keep in mind the millions of burnt taste posts. Vapers have time and time again expressed an extreme dislike, intolerance, and aversion to any burnt taste in their vape however slight. While I certainly understand that telling the researchers to test within the rather short temperature range that a pg/vg liquid mix would vaporize at, might cause some to cry foul.

let's consider how cigarettes are tested? yep you got it they rig up something that simulates smoking, like drawing air though them and measuring the sample in question. Since they have some grasp of how a cigarette works the testing leads to some realistic results. Now let's take the testing to something that resembles what they are doing to test e-liquids, heat a cigarette in a 1000 degree crucible and measure the resulting "vapor" ! yes perhaps an exaggeration, but not that far off.

There needs to be a better understanding of what are real world vaping conditions, before testing and evaluating blindly.

The Times article states, "the F.D.A. has focused largely on what goes into these products — currently, an unregulated brew of chemicals and flavorings — rather than on what comes out of them, as wispy plumes of flavored vapor." With that sort of thinking, let us virtually test something! How about we pick something we are familiar with, but not to well versed in. Something that fits their perceived notions about e-liquids (an unregulated brew of chemicals and flavorings), .... I got it! cookies! I hear everyone's doing them, and certainly they fit the "an unregulated brew of chemicals and flavorings" part. With some basic research we find that we can set up some testing at 300 - 500 degree F @ 50 degree increments. So jump to our findings - we found that at all temperature ranges we ended up with something that resembled a lump of smoldering charcoal. they gave off an acrid burnt smell. we measured many harmful VOC's including some carcinogens. Anyone surprised????

Just like no one would test cookies to the point of charcoal, testing of e-liquid NEEDS to be done within the range that they could, within a wide range of reasonable or believable, that they would be used in! if it doesn't meet the cookie standard then its meaningless!

scoff if you must, but let me expand on that.
injection: some have stated fears that e-liquid or its components might be injected: ok same with cookies
abuse: cookies are far more abused and ask most doctors, too many cookies are very unhealthy
substitution: putting other chemicals in or drugs in them - yep cookies led the way - gateway cookies
targets kids: yep you got it cookies, adults don't care for flavors, and only eat non flavored cookies
stealth: yes cookies have been sheathed in millions of venues where they were banned - library's, trains, etc

go ahead try any of the ANTZ arguments, and you find cookies fit! so ANTZ is also apposed to cookies

 

[AveryW]

Also seems that e-cigs are responsible for causing cerebral ........ in non-vapers...

Maybe we need warning labels on our bottles for this?

Sent from the mothership.

 

[ClintS]

It would be interesting to know what level of formaldehydes they are talking about. Formaldehyde is a common chemical found in many items; brand new homes typically have significant high levels of formaldehydes but that dissipates quickly. It is found in manufactured woods, carpeting, clothing, upholstery, and much more. So the amount of formaldehydes found is significant - within acceptable standards or ?

And I don't see how any level of voltage applied could be a basis of any objective scientific documentation - it should be a level of heat or temperature range. I'm not sure that e-liquids reach the temperatures (> 500 degrees F, 260 Celsius) that cigarettes burn at to produce formaldehyde.

 

[Giraut]

Yup; in plain simple terms, when you turn up the voltage too high for your setup, you get BURNT TASTE

It's not that simple: I have a friend whose tastebuds seems a lot more sensitive than mine. She keeps complaining about "some burnt or hot aftertaste" in almost all her juices, with almost all her clearos. She changes clearo heads every 2 or 3 days, because she says they go bad and start fouling the flavors (and no, before you suggest it, she doesn't want to hear about rebuildables - too much messing about for her).

But whenever she makes me sample her "bad" vapes, I can't taste anything. Just the flavor of the juice, and the vape seems perfectly find to me.

So, assuming a burnt taste is indicative of carcinogens being produced by the atomizer, she must gets a cleaner vape than I do, simply because my own warning system is defective compared to hers.

And what if you vape something so strongly flavored that you can't detect the burnt taste quite as soon?

I think it's not pointless to research the issue.

 

[Giraut]

I'm not sure that e-liquids reach the temperatures (> 500 degrees F, 260 Celsius) that cigarettes burn at to produce formaldehyde.

Of course it does. Not as long as the wick is nice and wet, but when it dries out... Remember, when you see the coil glow, it's at 700C / 1300F, and you *dont* see anything below that.

Not a problem with properly designed tanks that are kept full, but drippers tend to dry out their wicks regularly (by design), and I'm willing to bet they can easily reach over 260C even before you feel the flavor fading. In fact, that sudden rise in flavor right before the wick needs wetting may be caused by unusually high heat breaking down the juice's chemicals for all I know.

 

[crxess]

By test standards and assumption - cooking many pre-packaged foods should be Deadly.

I have no issue with real science in relation to Actual comparison of use, but when you bend your rules to fit your desired results the science is useless except for Personal and Political gain.

 

[rurwin]

It's not that simple: I have a friend whose tastebuds seems a lot more sensitive than mine. She keeps complaining about "some burnt or hot aftertaste" in almost all her juices, with almost all her clearos. She changes clearo heads every 2 or 3 days, because she says they go bad and start fouling the flavors (and no, before you suggest it, she doesn't want to hear about rebuildables - too much messing about for her).

That's a pity, because it might cure her problem. Certainly with a dripper or genesis, where one can see how the coil works, the leads from the coil to the terminals frequently get hot enough to glow, a hot spot, and people can taste that. Many clearos, eg Kanger, have long leads on their coils.

Of course it does. Not as long as the wick is nice and wet, but when it dries out... Remember, when you see the coil glow, it's at 700C / 1300F, and you *dont* see anything below that.

Not a problem with properly designed tanks that are kept full, but drippers tend to dry out their wicks regularly (by design), and I'm willing to bet they can easily reach over 260C even before you feel the flavor fading. In fact, that sudden rise in flavor right before the wick needs wetting may be caused by unusually high heat breaking down the juice's chemicals for all I know.

Generally we don't keep vaping with a burnt taste, so our exposure to a dry wick is going to be a lot lower than the study may assume.

 

[Giraut]

Generally we don't keep vaping with a burnt taste, so our exposure to a dry wick is going to be a lot lower than the study may assume.

My point is that the assumption that no burnt taste means safe coil temperature may be wrong.

It seems reasonable that a coil that's just a little too hot and starts producing nasty chemicals (again, assuming that it does) may not be felt in the vape's flavor, because the concentration of said nasty chemicals is too low to overpower the vape's normal flavor, or because the vaper doesn't have very sensitive tastebuds.

The human senses of taste and smell are far from objective and reliable. Just for that, I say it'd be worth studying. The study may be misguided or subjective, but the issue shouldn't be dismissed.

 

[Giraut]

By test standards and assumption - cooking many pre-packaged foods should be Deadly.

It's a known fact that food is not innocuous, even if it's not pre-packaged. See here for example.

 

[Nightshard]

The coloring and sweeteners in your e-liquid, when decomposed do release carcinogens.
Rate of decomposition is effected by the amount of heat applied.
So basically yes the hotter it gets the worst it gets.

On the other hand almost every processed food or drink we consume contains carcinogens to some degree, the question is to what degree and how is e-liquid compared to everything else.

 

[CabinetGuyScott]

someone posted a link to a NYT article discussing two studies implying that the hotter the liquid gets the more carcinogens specifically formaldehyde it produces. Just wondering if this study has been discussed in the community, especially with a sub-culture of higher and higher wattage that seems to be growing.

The most pertinent part of the article :

Both studies point to the same phenomenon: Intense heat can change the composition of e-liquids, creating new chemicals. Importantly, the researchers said, the chemical reactions apply not only to the liquid nicotine, but also to two other crucial ingredients in most e-liquids: vegetable glycerin and propylene glycol.

Precisely what level of heat causes the reaction is difficult to pinpoint. The Roswell research found, generally, that when battery voltage increased to 4.8 volts from 3.2 volts, toxin levels increased markedly.

link to complete article :

www. nytimes. com/2014/05/04/business/some-e-cigarettes-deliver-a-puff-of-carcinogens.html

Extensive coverage and discussion on the article & "studies" in this ECF thread: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...eating-e-liquid-may-produce-formaldehyde.html

 

[TheColdHandedVG]

Lol funny that no battery I know off can go over the 4.2 mark plus compare 4000 (or however much it is) to maybe 5 I'm sorry but I'll take those odds anyday but if it's so harmful then why aren't analogs banned as well if they produce more harmful chemicals? Cars for that matter? Kind of the monopoly that happened between the big 3 auto makers and a few cars trying to come out during their prime age

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Actually, most, if not all regulated devices have the ability to exceed 4.2 voltage output. You must be referring to unregulated devices/batteries.