does dripping/high wattage produce mor carcinogens ?
- Thread starter Mazinny
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
- Status
Without information on the equipment they're using, voltage information is worthless. They could have tested that 4.8 volts on a crappy cig-a-like cartridge... at 1.8 ohms, that's 14.4 watts which is totally fried on low end gear like that and no one uses it that way in the real world. If they tested it on a decent build appropriate for the voltage (like a Kayfun with a good build), it's a totally different story and could be a real problem. There's no way to know what it means without specifics on the exact gear, resistance, and wattage they're experimenting with.
High temp. causes the problem, not voltage or wattage. So keep the radiator full so that the engine doesn't overheat.
All they proved with those studies was that dry hits really do SUCK
add:
I would also point out that it's just as easy to do with a 3.4v eGo.
All they proved with those studies was that dry hits really do SUCK
add:
I would also point out that it's just as easy to do with a 3.4v eGo.
Last edited:
Just an FYI http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...g-links-junk-science-other-rubbish-posts.html
Thank you and have a great day
Thank you and have a great day
If you over heat your eggs in the frying pan, it's going to produce all kinds of noxious fumes.
In simple terms, it smells bad.
It's all fine to identify what chemicals compounds are in the burnt vapors from the burnt eggs, to simply say that "overheating your eggs produces carcinogens" is just marketing spin for common sense "burnt eggs"
In simple terms, it smells bad.
It's all fine to identify what chemicals compounds are in the burnt vapors from the burnt eggs, to simply say that "overheating your eggs produces carcinogens" is just marketing spin for common sense "burnt eggs"
I was wrong in that statement -
Cigarettes burn at 480°C - 752°F to 580°C - 1700°F producing the levels of formaldehyde that become a concern. Do e-cigs vaporize at a temperature high enough to produce a like amount?
The question becomes how hot is the e-cig vapor.
Glycerin's (VG and PG):
- boiling point (where liquid starts to become vapor) is 176 °C - 349 °F
- flash point (where the vapor becomes flammable if exposed to an ignition source) is 290 °C - 554 °F
- critical point (all gas and where no liquid remains) is 577 °C - 1070.6 °F.
(Information obtained from a couple of different manufacture's Material Safety Data Sheets (MSDS).
It was pretty easy to test for flash point - I took a .6 ohm dripper with pure VG and without the cap, put it on a DNA mod at 20.6 watts (3.6 volts), fired it off, and placed a lit butane torch near the atomizer under the vapor - instant flame over the top of the atomizer.
At least on a .6 ohm dripper our vapor is produced at 290 °C - 554 °F or higher. How much hotter can a dripper vaporize at? Would those using .2 ohm drippers with a fresh battery that are pushing more than 80 watts - be enough to reach the threshold temperatures of a cigarette. It would be interesting to see some valid studies.
Very interesting test, but I believe that if you go too high over the flash point, you might not get ignition (really not 100% about this as it definitely depends on intrinsic properties of the liquids involved and resulting air concentration.)
The best way to check coil temperature would be with an infrared thermometer. Coils being so small, it would be more precise to use thermal imagery. Does anyone here have access to such equipment???
Also, this would be a time-curve relation as coils don't fire up at max temperature right away and many other factors also count (time on, coil gauge/resistance/size, battery voltage/capacity, watts, voltage, amps, PWM (regulation type or battery discharge curve in general), wick type and gauge, how much liquid in contact with the coil, airflow, atomizer chamber size, heat dissipation from the atomizer chamber, ambient temperature/humidity level, air pressure, etc.) Any direct temperature reading would be interesting at this point, though.
Like boiling water on a stove, once there's water in the pot, the temperature is the boiling point of water, and the energy from the fire is going into latent heat of vaporization of the water; but once the water gets all boiled off, THEN the temperature of the pot goes up rapidly.
Similarly, once the wick remains wet, the coil temperature should be at the boiling point of the liquid, but if the wick goes dry, THEN the temperature of the coil shoots up.
That's why the coil goes red only when dry.
I'm guessing the coil temperature is coolest when the wick is fully saturated, and the highest when completely dry, and temperatures are in between when the wick is partially saturated.
Measured with a DMM, 300C - 700C
http://www.thevapersden.com/index.php?topic=2941.0
Measured with a DMM, 300C - 700C
http://www.thevapersden.com/index.php?topic=2941.0
Last edited:
Forgot about thermodynamics... thanks for that reminder
Temperature will still vary according to ambient air pressure, though -which is really not by much and will hit it's peak at sea level (just had to have the last word )With the pot, water, and stove: the temp of the stove (gas flame or electric) is much higher than the boiling point of water when the water is boiling. I suspect the temp of the atomizer coil is higher than the boiling point of the eliquid. The ejuice boils furiously, and almost instantaneously.
Last edited:
Taste is a chemical phenomena. When the taste changes, the chemicals have obviously changed.
Yes the temperature of the flame can be 1000 degree celcius, but the metal of the pot where it is in contact with liquid water cannot get past the 100 degree celcius boiling point of water; if you were able to force enough power into the pot to attempt to get that metal surface hotter than the boiling point of water, the water dissappear first before the temperature can get past the boiling point; yes that does happen in the case of the coil, because it not immersed in the liquid; the boiling water in a pot would be more analagous to a flooded coil; the priciple however, is that the coil temperature - while wet, tends to hover around the boiling point of the liquid, until the liquid is gone.
Temperature of the coil will be higher, but the general surface temperature in contact with the liquid will remain at the temperature of said boiling point of the liquid, give or take a tad. Coils are so small, there might not really be any temperature difference other than negligible.
[edit]: unless you have wayy much power incoming than can be dissipated by contact surface. Just don't take anything I say for granted, I've had a few glasses of wine.
Last edited:
After I read about carcinogens and higher temps, I immediately reduced the wattage that I vape.
Five watts is not so bad. Been vaping 5 for a few days. Noticed juice seems to last longer too.
Five watts is not so bad. Been vaping 5 for a few days. Noticed juice seems to last longer too.
That's only if it is a valid peer reviewed unbiased study, unlike this one. There have been plenty of these BS studies that do not come close to real world conditions. You need to understand what is a valid, correctly crafted study (try reading the Drexel University study) and ones that are not (try reading Stan Glantz's UCF study).
This 'carcinogens' thing to me is just media fear mongering as far as i'm concerned; when you get 'burnt taste' I'm sure there's going to be more a matter of 'noxious fumes' which are probably carcinogenic but probably more toxic than they are 'carcinogenic'.
What I mean is like if somebody tells you not to breathe the air when you go in a certain room because there is a gas in there that's poisonous,
.....
but they don't mention that the gas is hydrogen sulphide. (rotten egg smell).
hydrogen sulphide stinks to high hell! you don't have to tell me that there's a 'poisonous gas' in the room like you're fool everybody to think it's some kind of silent killer that you won't notice; you're going to notice it as soon as you open the door cause you're gonna smell it.
formaldehye for example is not odourless.
the big thing I'd be worried about would be carbon monoxide!!! I mean you're burning an organic compound like glycerol on a potentially red hot coil, maybe you'd get some buildup of carbon on the coil and you end up vaping some carbon monoxide; so to me it's a bit surprising that they mention formaldehyde but not carbon monoxide, and if there's no carbon monoxide when they push the limits trying to find something bad in ecigs, then HECK! these things are alot safer than I thought!
The orthodox view is that any study that hints there might be something unhealthy about vaping is bogus. Studies that hint it might be benign are fine and dandy good science.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...sion/565191-science-bogus-2.html#post13204600
Carcinogens are present in so many chemicals that evaporate at less than room temperature (I work with some of them). I've read so many MSDS files that say a product's fumes can cause cancer if inhaled in great quantities, yet those are present in many everyday workplaces without any control. Most people working with those are not even required to receive any training and some don't even have a clue what a MSDS is (Material Safety Data Sheet in case some wonder).
Reading back, I came to remember a certain number of things:
For a product to be transformed, there needs to be a chemical reaction -and that is a hard fact. Chemical reactions can be caused in different ways. Here are the ones that come to mind:
-Immediate reactions due to coming in direct contact with another product with which it can react. This part would happen during mixing of e-juice and has certainly already been looked at in previous studies.
-Introduction of a catalyst into a mix of products (introducing another chemical not likely present in normal vaping mixes).
-(slowly) heating a mix of products that don't normally react at room temperature. Heat levels can vary from a few degrees over room temperature (usually happens with very reactive materials) to near evaporation. Just going by memory on this, but past evaporation point I believe most materials tend to just evaporate and don't mix. This is most likely what's going on in an ecig (my opinion).
-Extreme heat; where a material does not have time to evaporate before reaching critical temperature (as in a fire is actually a chemical reaction). The actual temperature of extreme heat can cause different reactions depending on how fast the reaction is caused (direct relation to heat level). I somewhat doubt this can happen in an ecig unless you drip on a red hot coil and then some.
Sounds like the said studies have been concentrating on making the juice have a chemical reaction (perhaps even an extreme one) and then studying what comes out. It has nothing to do with what can happen at actual levels of power involved since they don't seem to have even studied what are the achievable temperatures in ecigs in normal operating conditions. It would, however, sound like it makes sense to someone who had no idea of the difference between an actual cigarette and an ecig, e.g. actual burning VS heating. I even doubt that the burning taste from a lack of liquid would cause an extreme reaction since it is more likely that the burnt taste comes from the wick itself than juice heating way past its boiling point, but that is my opinion alone.
Again, don't take any of what I say for granted; I'm not an actual chemist, but I do like to stay informed for personal safety at work. And, sorry for posting so much in this thread, BTW...
Reading back, I came to remember a certain number of things:
For a product to be transformed, there needs to be a chemical reaction -and that is a hard fact. Chemical reactions can be caused in different ways. Here are the ones that come to mind:
-Immediate reactions due to coming in direct contact with another product with which it can react. This part would happen during mixing of e-juice and has certainly already been looked at in previous studies.
-Introduction of a catalyst into a mix of products (introducing another chemical not likely present in normal vaping mixes).
-(slowly) heating a mix of products that don't normally react at room temperature. Heat levels can vary from a few degrees over room temperature (usually happens with very reactive materials) to near evaporation. Just going by memory on this, but past evaporation point I believe most materials tend to just evaporate and don't mix. This is most likely what's going on in an ecig (my opinion).
-Extreme heat; where a material does not have time to evaporate before reaching critical temperature (as in a fire is actually a chemical reaction). The actual temperature of extreme heat can cause different reactions depending on how fast the reaction is caused (direct relation to heat level). I somewhat doubt this can happen in an ecig unless you drip on a red hot coil and then some.
Sounds like the said studies have been concentrating on making the juice have a chemical reaction (perhaps even an extreme one) and then studying what comes out. It has nothing to do with what can happen at actual levels of power involved since they don't seem to have even studied what are the achievable temperatures in ecigs in normal operating conditions. It would, however, sound like it makes sense to someone who had no idea of the difference between an actual cigarette and an ecig, e.g. actual burning VS heating. I even doubt that the burning taste from a lack of liquid would cause an extreme reaction since it is more likely that the burnt taste comes from the wick itself than juice heating way past its boiling point, but that is my opinion alone.
Again, don't take any of what I say for granted; I'm not an actual chemist, but I do like to stay informed for personal safety at work. And, sorry for posting so much in this thread, BTW...
Last edited:
The intelligent view, something that appears foreign to you, is that a study either positive or negative on vaping, must have a foundation based on reality and study methods that are credible and unbiased.
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
