Does this seem right to you?

[Jode]

Kinda musing this morning

I was watching an episode of The West Wing last night and it made me think about the fight we are in right now.

The powers that be were going to vote on the passage of a bill that would earmark a few billion dollars for some things for kids. Bill started out at about a billion but was already up to about 6 billion. One man wanted to tack on more for kids with autism. The other powers that be said no, let's put it to a vote now.

He decided to filibuster (get up there and talk 'til the cows come home). Well at the eleventh hour the white house found out that the reason he was so dead set about adding the money is because he himself had an autistic grandchild.

The white house (The President and all his helpers) jumped through all kinds of hoops to help him out. It was one of their own so they made sure he got what he wanted. It didn't matter to them when it was just some random kids out there. It was personal now.

The point I am making with all this blather is: The only way we will get any kind of action from the powers that be is if it effects them personally. If not, then sadly, we may as well be shouting at the wind. That won't stop me from doing all I can do to get their ear but I don't think they will hear me unless they can be convinced that it is in their personal best interest to listen and do something.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could find some people (or more people) in position that vaping has helped or at least that we could show that if vaping had entered their world it could have helped. I am not being very clear so maybe a small example will help. If we could find people that hold clout at the deciding table that have been negatively effected by smoking that could have been helped by vaping. I understand that time is of the essence right now, but even if this battle goes down hill it doesn't necessarily mean we have lost. It may feel like it but no matter the outcome I think we will still need to continue to search for more and more people to get behind this. Continue studies and research into vaping that makes it clearer for those to understand. This may not be an appropriate comparison (because one alters your mind and the other doesn't), but I think it fits ok. There was a period of history where we saw prohibition, but people continued to make and drink alcohol behind closed doors. Prohibition didn't last. I think it may take a lot of time (and maybe some of this will have to be done behind closed doors) but I think eventually we will get more and more people on our side where it does become personal to them. Eventually I think people are going to have to admit that vaping used as a harm reduction technique to get off cigs can in fact be a life saver. I know it doesn't happen too often but laws and regulations can be reversed. I wish there were more hospitals that are willing to get on board and put the money into doing studies to show improved lung function and more truths about vaping. Make it personal to a wider group of people. Help those still unaware on cigs that feel hopeless that there is an option if they are willing to give it a try. A year ago I knew very little (actually nothing about the advances) about vaping. I tried it about 5 yrs ago when my first grandchild was born but cigalikes did nothing for me so I forgot about it. My daughter had to do a college paper on ENDS and her research piqued my interest. That's all it took for vaping to go from almost a non thing to highly personal for me. I continue to hold out hope that people in position will also have an awakening so that it is personal to them.

 

[Jode]

Most of us aren't lawyers, though a few here are obviously very educated on these matters and I am thankful for them!! But if everyone else just took your attitude, we'd be in much better shape!!

Awww thank you. I bet you could find a whole bunch, however, that might not agree that my attitude is always good.

 

[AndriaD]

The only way we will get any kind of action from the powers that be is if it effects them personally. If not, then sadly, we may as well be shouting at the wind. That won't stop me from doing all I can do to get their ear but I don't think they will hear me unless they can be convinced that it is in their personal best interest to listen and do something.

And I wonder if perhaps the reason GA lawmakers seem to be so sane with respect to e-cigs is because smoking is still very widespread here in the south; not only a great many of their constituents, but also perhaps some of their family members and close friends (or even themselves!) are/were still smokers, and perhaps either have already been helped by e-cigs, or stand to benefit from them by their providing such an easy (relatively) method of quitting.

In places where smoking isn't very common any longer, lawmakers don't have "any skin in the game," so they're less concerned about the real benefits, and only focus on the "potential" for harm from a whole new thing. Or, they're just so well-funded by ANTZ and BT, they don't want to rock the boat and endanger their own gravy train. Or they're just t-total idiots.

Andria

 

[KattMamma]

Or, they're just so well-funded by ANTZ and BT, they don't want to rock the boat and endanger their own gravy train. Or they're just t-total idiots.

ALL of this... but especially the idiots part.

 

[Ladiekali]

I was thinking of buying a really popular eliquid recently. I always keep my eliquids out of reach from my kids, but I just couldn't bring myself to buy this particular eliquid because of the packaging and the thought that it just looked too much like something kids would mistake for candy. Anyway this is the eliquid:

I hate all the media reports that say eliquid flavours are attracting kids when vendors never sell to under 18s, but I think packaging like this isn't helping either.

i have this juice and like it alot. you can buy bottles for cheap to put them in if it's a big deal for your situation.
branding doesn't bother me personally, and i have a age range of children. i can say my youngest who is three has not noticed the packaging. she has commented on the smell of my vapor being yummy smelling.
i believe as adults it our job to be responsible with our eliquid, just as we are with cleaning chemicals, or our cigarettes, and lighters or matches and what not. i even have a tool box with a lock for my juices, but that is mostly because my older son has happy fingers and thinks whats mine is his.

 

[DC2]

step one.the American Family Tobacco act authorizes the FDA to regulate
e-cigs as a tobacco product. thus the act deemed e-cigs as a tobacco product,
not the FDA.

You keep saying that electronic cigarettes already ARE tobacco products.

After your post above I think I finally understand your thought processes on this.
And now I know why you focus so much on what "derived from" means.

Not sure I agree, but now I can see where you're coming from at least.

 

[skoony]

You keep saying that electronic cigarettes already ARE tobacco products.

After your post above I think I finally understand your thought processes on this.
And now I know why you focus so much on what "derived from" means.

Not sure I agree, but now I can see where you're coming from at least.

i am working on a timeline starting with the food,drug and cosmetic act.
this is were the FDA thought they had authority to regulate e-cigs as drugs.
then came the tobacco control act followed by the FDA' stakeholder letter.
then the deeming proposal.this may take a while.
my timeline may be off but the end conclusion is not that far off.
trying to get a grip on what happened when is like herding cats.
regards
mike

 

[zoiDman]

i am working on a timeline starting with the food,drug and cosmetic act.
this is were the FDA thought they had authority to regulate e-cigs as drugs.
then came the tobacco control act followed by the FDA' stakeholder letter.
then the deeming proposal.this may take a while.
my timeline may be off but the end conclusion is not that far off.
trying to get a grip on what happened when is like herding cats.
regards
mike

Would this Help?

The FDA and Electronic Cigarettes, a Timeline Part 1

 

[zoiDman]

BTW - Here is a Nice Chart showing the Steps in the "Deeming" and Regulations process.

http://www.reginfo.gov/public/reginfo/Regmap/regmap.pdf

Nine-Step Rulemaking Process and FDA Tobacco Deeming Regs | CSPnet

 

[skoony]

Would this Help?

The FDA and Electronic Cigarettes, a Timeline Part 1

yes thanks
mike

 

[skoony]

BTW - Here is a Nice Chart showing the Steps in the "Deeming" and Regulations process.

http://www.reginfo.gov/public/reginfo/Regmap/regmap.pdf

Nine-Step Rulemaking Process and FDA Tobacco Deeming Regs | CSPnet

yep thanks again.
mike

 

[Wow1420]

there are no regulations at all yet.
the deeming proposal is is just an outline of what they will consider when
writing the actual regulations.they are writing the regulations right now.
that's my understanding.
step one.the American Family Tobacco act authorizes the FDA to regulate
e-cigs as a tobacco product. thus the act deemed e-cigs as a tobacco product,
not the FDA.
step two.the FDA presents their deeming proposal outlining the frame work
of what they will consider when writing the regulations.just because it says
deeming proposal it is not the document that deemed e-cigs a tobacco product.
see step one.
step three.the comment period.(no comment needed)
step four.write the regulations.
step five.unveil the regulations. after an allotted time period
from 18 months to 2 years depending on sources the regulations become
codified in law barring any congressional objections in whole or part
of the regulations.

regards
mike
addendum:there seems to be some confusion concerning the court case.
the court denied the FDA to regulate e-cigs as a medical device.
however noted there was nothing to bar them from regulating them
as a tobacco product.
this is not an authorization for the FDA to regulate e-cigs as a
tobacco product. the FDA didn't have the authority to do so.
the American Family Tobacco Act gave the FDA the authority.
it is unclear if the FDA could have regulated e-cigs as a tobacco
product without the AFTA.

What is this AFTA you keep writing about? You mean the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act?

The Tobacco Control Act is what gives the FDA authority to regulate tobacco products. It doesn't mention ecigs, but it did give the FDA authority to extend what is defined as a tobacco product beyond products that are specifically mentioned in the TCA (deeming). The FDA did not have authority to regulate tobacco prior to the TCA (see the Brown ans Williamson case).

The TCA is also what sets the 2007 date for what existing products are grandfathered in and not subject to the new product review process.

 

[zoiDman]

BTW - Here is Something that People should be Aware of...

Congressional Review Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

U.S. GAO - CRA FAQs

 

[skoony]

What is this AFTA you keep writing about? You mean the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act?

The Tobacco Control Act is what gives the FDA authority to regulate tobacco products. It doesn't mention ecigs, but it did give the FDA authority to extend what is defined as a tobacco product beyond products that are specifically mentioned in the TCA (deeming). The FDA did not have authority to regulate tobacco prior to the TCA (see the Brown ans Williamson case).

The TCA is also what sets the 2007 date for what existing products are grandfathered in and not subject to the new product review process.

thanks.
i gotten that far.
its going through it to separate the wheat from the chaff.
regards
mike

 

[caramel]

BTW - Here is Something that People should be Aware of...

Congressional Review Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

U.S. GAO - CRA FAQs

They won't veto something "for the children"......

 

[YoursTruli]

Kinda musing this morning

I was watching an episode of The West Wing last night and it made me think about the fight we are in right now.

The powers that be were going to vote on the passage of a bill that would earmark a few billion dollars for some things for kids. Bill started out at about a billion but was already up to about 6 billion. One man wanted to tack on more for kids with autism. The other powers that be said no, let's put it to a vote now.

He decided to filibuster (get up there and talk 'til the cows come home). Well at the eleventh hour the white house found out that the reason he was so dead set about adding the money is because he himself had an autistic grandchild.

The white house (The President and all his helpers) jumped through all kinds of hoops to help him out. It was one of their own so they made sure he got what he wanted. It didn't matter to them when it was just some random kids out there. It was personal now.

The point I am making with all this blather is: The only way we will get any kind of action from the powers that be is if it effects them personally. If not, then sadly, we may as well be shouting at the wind. That won't stop me from doing all I can do to get their ear but I don't think they will hear me unless they can be convinced that it is in their personal best interest to listen and do something.

And I wonder if perhaps the reason GA lawmakers seem to be so sane with respect to e-cigs is because smoking is still very widespread here in the south; not only a great many of their constituents, but also perhaps some of their family members and close friends (or even themselves!) are/were still smokers, and perhaps either have already been helped by e-cigs, or stand to benefit from them by their providing such an easy (relatively) method of quitting.

In places where smoking isn't very common any longer, lawmakers don't have "any skin in the game," so they're less concerned about the real benefits, and only focus on the "potential" for harm from a whole new thing. Or, they're just so well-funded by ANTZ and BT, they don't want to rock the boat and endanger their own gravy train. Or they're just t-total idiots.

Andria

...and maybe this is what it took for more in the ecig industry along with more ecig users to finally take notice, that this might actually effect them personally, that they might have skin in the game. If you consider the amount of current ecig users (estimated at about 10% of adult population) and vape shops across the US (estimated at 15 thousand) (reference for stats - E-cigarette usage surges in past year: Reuters/Ipsos poll| Reuters comparatively... our side has had and really continues to have a rather pathetic show of support.

 

[AndriaD]

...and maybe this is what it took for more in the ecig industry along with more ecig users to finally take notice, that this might actually effect them personally, that they might have skin in the game. If you consider the amount of current ecig users (estimated at about 10% of adult population) and vape shops across the US (estimated at 15 thousand) (reference for stats - E-cigarette usage surges in past year: Reuters/Ipsos poll| Reuters comparatively... our side has had and really continues to have a rather pathetic show of support.

True... and for that I think we must blame the ANTZ... they've carried on their "smoking kills everybody who ever inhales a single whiff" rhetoric with such stunning results -- bans everywhere -- that a lot of folks probably think, "What's the use? They're gonna ban it anyway." Having The Powers That Be always against you is bound to result in widespread apathy and resignation. When you're beating your head against a wall, it feels good when you stop and simply accept the presence of said wall.

Andria

 

[YoursTruli]

True... and for that I think we must blame the ANTZ... they've carried on their "smoking kills everybody who ever inhales a single whiff" rhetoric with such stunning results -- bans everywhere -- that a lot of folks probably think, "What's the use? They're gonna ban it anyway." Having The Powers That Be always against you is bound to result in widespread apathy and resignation. When you're beating your head against a wall, it feels good when you stop and simply accept the presence of said wall.

Andria

I don't know how I feel about that Andria, it seems a bit of a cop out, it's easy to blame others for our shortfalls. Maybe it is a bit of you can't win brainwashing that makes people so passive when it comes to issues like this, maybe a bit of someone else will do it for them mentality and I believe there is a lack of awareness and full understanding when it comes to this specific issue too.
I think we need a march on the FDA .....all 24 million of us!

 

[KattMamma]

I sort of agree YoursTruli - sort of! LOL

I still blame the ANTZ for their part, but I still blame the ones who give up too easily - I know I'm hard headed, but for others who get tired of beating their head against that wall, just take a short break, then go back to beating on it.

Just imagine if every vaper did JUST ONE THING to help the cause - write their rep or senator, join casaa, donate to casaa, educate peers, etc. - I doubt we'd be preparing for the hammer to fall now.

 

[Jazzman]

I sort of agree YoursTruli - sort of! LOL

I still blame the ANTZ for their part, but I still blame the ones who give up too easily - I know I'm hard headed, but for others who get tired of beating their head against that wall, just take a short break, then go back to beating on it.

Just imagine if every vaper did JUST ONE THING to help the cause - write their rep or senator, join casaa, donate to casaa, educate peers, etc. - I doubt we'd be preparing for the hammer to fall now.

I really have to agree with you Katt. Freedom is won, not given. And if most ignore the issue and don't even try to join the fight it's awfully hard to gain freedom. If all vapers spoke up it would be monstrously loud and impossible to ignore. But that doesn't seem to be the case unfortunately.

I'm not going to blame anyone for not fighting hard enough... or not fighting at all. It's an individual choice. But I won't have much sympathy when the freedom to vape is lost and the folks who never even joined the fight start whining.

I know the folks in this thread see the future and what is going to happen as a result of the complacent attitude most vapers seem to have. So I guess the question is, how do we reach the folks that have ignored the issue so far and don't feel a need to participate in the fight? We know that it will be exponentially harder to repeal regs than to block them in the first place. So frustrating.

I, like you (and most in this thread), am stubborn and will continue to fight. But I really despair of the opportunity lost to fight the deeming regs at it's easiest point with the full voice of vapers, which is before they are passed.