Does this seem right to you?

[Jazzman]

I though Appellate Courts only heard Appeals on Lower Court Rulings?

I think the deeming regs are not a court ruling Zoid. The appeal would be a first court ruling to the regs if passed.

 

[Mitchell.martel]

It is possible Mitchell. And I can tell you I would give a huge amount of respect to our president if he did this. I really don't believe he will, and it would be nothing but a footnote in history, but it would make a very big difference in how I view Obama's legacy going forward.

Is it possible? yes...are your chances of winning the lottery in all 50 states in the same year let alone in your life better? once again yes...if he does help vapers then I'll be thankful...doesn't excuse the crap he's already pulled and is/will pull though

 

[zoiDman]

I think the deeming regs are not a court ruling Zoid. The appeal would be a first court ruling to the regs if passed.

Deeming isn't even Final.

But some have Suggested that the Legal Authority of the FDA to Deem e-liquids that contain Nicotine could be Challenged.

And I Don't think that is Possible.

 

[Lessifer]

IIRC the judgement was not that electronic cigarettes ARE recreational tobacco products, only that they ARE NOT combination drug devices.

ETA: I'm not a lawyer though, and I have no idea what the merits of the case would be.

 

[zoiDman]

IIRC the judgement was not that electronic cigarettes ARE recreational tobacco products, only that they ARE NOT combination drug devices.

ETA: I'm not a lawyer though, and I have no idea what the merits of the case would be.

Aren't they either One or the Other?

 

[Rocketpunk]

Tenacity, son!

 

[Lessifer]

Again, not a lawyer, but I have to think that a completely novel product could warrant a novel classification. Especially since the expressed intent of the FSPTCA was to mitigate the health effects of tobacco products, and vapor products do not pose the same health threats.

 

[zoiDman]

Tenacity, son!

Just doing My part to get the ECF to 20,000,000 Post.

And talking about RTA's all day long is Boring. Issues that will Shape the Future of the e-Cigarette Market are Much More Interesting.

 

[beckdg]

Zoid, I think you and I are saying the same thing. I just don't think this next released version will be as strict as we fear either, because it doesn't need to be. It's like all the local fights, why do we fight a ban on vape vending machines(especially when there are no vape vending machines)? Because the law banning them also classifies vapor products as tobacco products, opening the doorway to taxation as tobacco products.

The FDA doesn't have to spell out every restriction and regulation it wants to subject vapor products to, all it has to do is successfully deem vapor products as tobacco products. After that, they have the authority to set whatever policy guidelines they want, without review, within the scope of the FSPTCA, and they only way to stop them is in the courts.

After the fact. When we're fighting from behind and already under restriction.

Tapatyped

 

[supertrunker]

Aren't they either One or the Other?

They might be something else altogether, requiring their own regulations, or none!

T

 

[beckdg]

And this is Exactly why, I believe, that the FDA will want to write as an Inclusive Rule Set as Possible.

You're too focused on e-cig future to see a clear and present path cut deep and wide by this agency throughout a very blatant history on several subjects.

Tapatyped

 

[zoiDman]

Again, not a lawyer, but I have to think that a completely novel product could warrant a novel classification. Especially since the expressed intent of the FSPTCA was to mitigate the health effects of tobacco products, and vapor products do not pose the same health threats.

I always thought the FSPTCA was just a piece of Legislation to Glean Votes.

Ya know... a "we're up in Washington here to Save your Children" thing.

 

[Jazzman]

Deeming isn't even Final.

But some have Suggested that the Legal Authority of the FDA to Deem e-Liquids that contain Nicotine could be Challenged.

And I Don't think that is Possible.

My understanding Zoid is the FDA deeming vaping to be a medical device was challenged in court and was won in the appellate court by NJoy. And the courts said that vaping would have to be deemed as a tobacco product, which is where we are today. And yes, any deeming can be challenged in court and based upon the ruling of a lower court can be referred to a higher court if the higher courts agrees to hear the case. Otherwise the ruling of the lower court will prevail. But as I've said, IANAL, so others may have a better understanding of the system.

 

[zoiDman]

You're too focused on e-cig future to see a clear and present path cut deep and wide by this agency throughout a very blatant history on several subjects.

Tapatyped

Hey I never said that the FDA doesn't a History of putting Public Health before Corporate Profits or Federal Tax Revenues.

And I'm not Exactly Thrilled with the Way things are Going. Or with the Level of Activism I see in Most People/Retailers/OEM's.

 

[Lessifer]

I always thought the FSPTCA was just a piece of Legislation to Glean Votes.

Ya know... a "we're up in Washington here to Save your Children" thing.

The stated Public Health objectives of the FSPTCA are:

• Prevent Americans—especially youth–from starting to use tobacco
• Encourage current users to quit
• Decrease the harms of tobacco product use

Actually, if they DON'T deem vapor products as tobacco products, and don't kill the vapor product industry, they could accomplish all three of those.

 

[supertrunker]

The UK went down the road of trying to get e-cigs regarded as medical devices and i believe they are still doing so.

The major problem with such an approach is that they neither treat or cure any recognised disease!

So, i'll take my tobacco product to Europe, where upon landing it will be a medical device needing a doctor's note and on the return flight i'll have to pay tobacco duty?

T

 

[zoiDman]

My understanding Zoid is the FDA deeming vaping to be a medical device was challenged in court and was won in the appellate court by NJoy. And the courts said that vaping would have to be deemed as a tobacco product, which is where we are today. And yes, any deeming can be challenged in court and based upon the ruling of a lower court can be referred to a higher court if the higher courts agrees to hear the case. Otherwise the ruling of the lower court will prevail. But as I've said, IANAL, so others may have a better understanding of the system.

We can Challenge Individual Parts of the FDA "Deemed" Rules.

Such as Closed System Cartridges. Or Limits on Nicotine.

But I Don't believe a Legal Challenge that the FDA does not have the Authority to Regulate e-liquids that Contain Nicotine as Tobacco Products (after deeming is Approved) is possible.

 

[zoiDman]

The stated Public Health objectives of the FSPTCA are:

• Prevent Americans—especially youth–from starting to use tobacco
• Encourage current users to quit
• Decrease the harms of tobacco product use

Actually, if they DON'T deem vapor products as tobacco products, and don't kill the vapor product industry, they could accomplish all three of those.

So could it be that Congress is Not Telling us the Truth? And could it be that the FDA is just being used as a Tool to Turn the e-Cigarette market over to BT?

And that our Government doesn't Give a Rat's Azz because they can Tax us after it Happens?

Wow.

 

[beckdg]

Hey I never said that the FDA doesn't a History of putting Public Health before Corporate Profits or Federal Tax Revenues.

And I'm not Exactly Thrilled with the Way things are Going. Or with the Level of Activism I see in Most People/Retailers/OEM's.

And you think they'll be able to succeed with that with an all inclusive rule set on the first blow without risking outing themselves?

I don't.

Cool and calculated, blow by blow... that's what I foresee.

Tapatyped

 

[beckdg]

So could it be that Congress is Not Telling us the Truth? And could it be that the FDA is just being used as a Tool to Turn the e-Cigarette market over to BT?

And that our Government doesn't Give a Rat's Azz because they can Tax us after it Happens?

Wow.

I smell something.

Can't quite put my finger on it.

A very distinct, familiar scent.

A very bold odor.

What could it be?

SARCASM! that's it...

Tapatyped