Don't let anyone tell you that nicotine is a poison...

[pcrdude]

As transparent attempts to evade the question go, that was pretty transparent. Common usage doesn't mean anything? You started by saying the word poison doesn't have a rigorous definition, now you're telling us common usage is irrelevant. Shall we just redefine 'poison' to mean 'cabbage stew', and be done with it?

My position has been entirely consistent.

Medicines are frequently poisons. Almonds contain poisons.

Please try to keep up.

What is the difference between the status as poisons of bleach and nicotine base liquid?

Just answer the question.

I have. The term poison is meaningless without regard to dose.

Please read:

The Dose Makes the Poison: A Plain-Language Guide to Toxicology, 3rd Edition: Patricia Frank, M. Alice Ottoboni: 9780470381120: Amazon.com: Books

You might learn something. Although, based on what you have written here, I don't have high hopes for you.

 

[generic mutant]

If you'd stated "poison does not have a rigorous definition, but nicotine base is toxic enough to be generally regarded as a poison" from the beginning I might have agreed with you.

But that sounds too much like equivocation, doesn't it? And we don't have room for truth or reason when there's a war to fight.

Nicotine is good for you! Nicotine will make you strong and wise! All hail nicotine!

 

[Ryedan]

This is the first time I've heard this. Got any hard data on that? I DIY and I don't take the kind of precautions with nic base that I would if this were true.

Hard data? Not sure it is that type.. But from our DIY sections, stickied... I started DIY a year ago or so... I am not going to search through the threads but can remember seeing a lot of warnings about high strength nic base. I want to say they even spoke about 60mg. (Maybe it has all changed in a year. I swear I read 60 would kill ya)

Mainly this part

"Do not DIY unless you understand the consequences and and can carry out your own testing, as it appears that some vendors are not familiar with how to test their products."


Another link to a thread

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ew-rules-applied-nicotine-discussion-ecf.html

Now time to correct myself.. 100 mg seems okay... it is above this it goes wonky.

Thanks bluecat. I believe JMarca was mistaken in the statements he made. I know what 48 mg base is like to get a whiff of (nothing happens) and to get a bit on my skin (wash it off a few minutes later when it's convenient) and there is no issue with it. Of course I don't spend an hour sniffing it or bath in it. "Simply inhaling it <100 mg base> can leave devastating trauma to the lungs" is absurd

 

[pcrdude]

If you'd stated "poison does not have a rigorous definition, but nicotine base is toxic enough to be generally regarded as a poison" from the beginning I might have agreed with you.

But that sounds too much like equivocation, doesn't it? And we don't have room for truth or reason when there's a war to fight.

Nicotine is good for you! Nicotine will make you strong and wise! All hail nicotine!

Strawman much?

You are not representing my consistent position with accuracy. All along I have emphatically and clearly stated that the term "poison" is meaningless without taking dosage into consideration. I have given plenty of examples.

I gave you everything you need to understand, but you completely ignore the logic.

Nicotine base at 1 femtogram per liter is not toxic by transdermal dosing of one milliliter.

NaCl, taken orally at 0.5 kilograms is toxic to the point of being lethal.

Which one is a poison?

Show your work.

 

[pcrdude]

<snip>

"Nicotine is a poison!" is often a short-cut to thinking, a slogan designed to cut off discussion.

<snip>

There you have it gm. You have disagreed with yourself!!!!

 

[generic mutant]

You're conflating 'poisonous' with 'toxic'.

I'm not claiming poisonous is rigorously defined. I'm claiming it doesn't matter that it isn't. It's still defined.

There is a qualitative difference between bleach and apple juice, or between nicotine base and water.

The former are toxic at concentrations routinely encountered: they are poisons by any widely accepted definition.

 

[Nirk]

0.1-0.6ml of pure nicotine could easily kill you. Sounds pretty poisonous to me.

Why I am posting this I do not know, because the people arguing nicotine "is not a poison" clearly will not budge on this.... lol

Just a thought....

If someone put 1ml of pure nicotine in your can of coke for example and you drank it... What would they have done to you? Poisoned you yes.

What would it say in the autopsy report? .................................

Yes you guessed it.....

Nicotine poisoning.

 

[pcrdude]

Nirk and GM,

Your last posts entirely miss the points I have been making.

The term "poison" is imprecise since it doesn't take into account the dose, or quantity required to do harm (be toxic). Today, the FDA announced that the dosage of acetaminophen should be limited. At too high of a dose, it is toxic. In fact, it can kill you.

They didn't proclaim that acetaminophen is a poison. Yet, one can be killed by too much acetaminophen.

I asked a question about NaCl and nicotine with relevant dosages. You both dodged the question.

Care to answer?

 

[pcrdude]

If anyone is still following along, they might think recommending a book about toxicology is a little "wrong". Those who don't understand modern toxicological science, and argue about what a poison may or may not be, probably won't go buy a book that will refute their position.

Therefore, I supply a link to a free resource that should help make the point. If you really want to know about what the science of toxicology really is, in contrast to the layperson term "poison", here it is for your reading pleasure:

http://toxlearn.nlm.nih.gov/Toxicology/tx010101/tx010101.pdf

It's hosted by the national Institute of Health.

Have fun!

Nirk and GM, I strongly suggest you read the document at the link. I'll be happy to address any questions you may have after you do so.

 

[Lifted]

Many naturally occurring and artificial poisonous substances are used as medicine. My takeaway from this thread is that nature is not black or white, true or false. Also, I choose to self medicate with caffeine and nicotine on a nearly daily basis.

Sent from my Nexus 5

 

[Nirk]

PCRdude do you think we could arrange some sort of private lessons? I would be willing to pay you, I aspire to be as intelligent as you and maybe you could give me some pointers?

 

[EddardinWinter]

If anyone is still following along, they might think recommending a book about toxicology is a little "wrong". Those who don't understand modern toxicological science, and argue about what a poison may or may not be, probably won't go buy a book that will refute their position.

Therefore, I supply a link to a free resource that should help make the point. If you really want to know about what the science of toxicology really is, in contrast to the layperson term "poison", here it is for your reading pleasure:

http://toxlearn.nlm.nih.gov/Toxicology/tx010101/tx010101.pdf

It's hosted by the national Institute of Health.

Have fun!

Nirk and GM, I strongly suggest you read the document at the link. I'll be happy to address any questions you may have after you do so.

Interesting stuff there, to be sure. Thanks for the link!



Roaring via Tapatalk

 

[JMarca]

I don't know about anyone else, but I am claiming that pretty much everything is a poison depending on the dose.
That is not one of the options you decided to make available though.

And like everyone else on this thread, I am quite certain that I am right.


But I would go further and say that certain types of people will purposely call nicotine a poison in order to denigrate us.
And I will reject that characterization by those types of people, and encourage others to do the same.

Nicotine needs to be treated with a certain kind of respect not only for yourself but for those around you. I'd love to see you talk down the damage that nicotine can do after one of your loved ones accidentally swallows some thinking it was something else. You have to think before you talk, Nicotine is a poison and should be respected as such, a certain degree of responsibility is needed for handling such substances.

Think before you talk, there are more people than you think listening.

 

[generic mutant]

Being poisonous is a function of toxicity and amount, at no point have I disputed that.

Whether something is considered 'a poison' is a heuristic. 'Will that stuff chemically kill or injure someone?'.

Arguing that the concept is outdated and scientifically imprecise is fine, but it still exists: people still divide things, in speech, thought and storage methods, between things that are OK and things that are poisonous (...volatile, corrosive). The fact that the division is extremely fuzzy, that small amounts of things considered 'poisons' can be harmless (or beneficial), or that large amounts of things considered harmless can be harmful, doesn't suddenly dissolve the category, and people divide things into similarly slippery categories all day long.

My point is simply this. If there is a category 'household poisons', and bleach is in it, then nicotine base is too.

 

[DC2]

Nicotine needs to be treated with a certain kind of respect not only for yourself but for those around you.

Nobody in this thread has said otherwise.

I'd love to see you talk down the damage that nicotine can do after one of your loved ones accidentally swallows some thinking it was something else.

And as far as I know brief exposure to too much nicotine does no permanent damage other than killing you...
Which simply is not happening in the real world.

Think before you talk, there are more people than you think listening.

I thought long and hard before I talked.
That is why I made this thread.

I have been thinking about this for years.

 

[NorthwestV4l]

All this talk of things that can kill you and "this is worse than that" I can only think of one thing that won't kill you.

 

[pcrdude]

Being poisonous is a function of toxicity and amount, at no point have I disputed that.

Whether something is considered 'a poison' is a heuristic. 'Will that stuff chemically kill or injure someone?'.

Arguing that the concept is outdated and scientifically imprecise is fine, but it still exists: people still divide things, in speech, thought and storage methods, between things that are OK and things that are poisonous (...volatile, corrosive). The fact that the division is extremely fuzzy, that small amounts of things considered 'poisons' can be harmless (or beneficial), or that large amounts of things considered harmless can be harmful, doesn't suddenly dissolve the category, and people divide things into similarly slippery categories all day long.

My point is simply this. If there is a category 'household poisons', and bleach is in it, then nicotine base is too.

Heuristic? Really? Did you read the link I posted? I don't think you did.

GM, you seem to be unable to grasp the concept of the difference between colloquial speech and scientific terminology. The term poison is outdated in scientific practice. The link I supplied explains exactly why. Exactly.

Now, back to the topic the OP wanted to emphasize.

Imagine you are out there vaping, and someone walks up to you and tells you that the nicotine you are vaping is a deadly poison. You are now armed with all the information you need to tell them that it most certainly is not.

You seem to want to argue for the sake of arguing. The evidence is there. Science has spoken (from the Society of Toxicology no less).

 

[generic mutant]

What is the scientific definition of a black person?

Was Malcolm X a black person?

 

[pcrdude]

What is the scientific definition of a black person?

Was Malcolm X a black person?

After you learn about toxicology, you may want to look up "Logical Fallacy", so you can learn about how to debate effectively.



BTW, I'll help you get started. The post I quoted is a "Red Herring" logical fallacy of the informal variety.

 

[Robino1]

What is the scientific definition of a black person?

Was Malcolm X a black person?

Huh? Not sure why you said this I don't see the connection.....