Don't let anyone tell you that nicotine is a poison...

[Ryedan]

you forgot to quote this part "Maintaining respiration and circulation is the most important aspect of treatment"..
i find that interesting because nicotine causes vascular constriction in small doses, thus limiting circulation.

I was more interested in "Any substance that impairs health or destroys life when ingested, inhaled, or absorbed by the body in relatively small amounts." and "Some toxicologists suggest that, depending on the dose, all substances are poisons." and "Many experts state that it is impossible to categorize any chemical as either safe or toxic and that the real concern is the risk or hazard associated with the use of any substance."

It seems to me that even the professionals disagree on exactly how to classify substances as poison, or even if it has any validity.

But that's just me.

Carry on

 

[CES]

less than 1 MG will give most people a bit of a buzz. a threshold doses like .1 or .2 mg can cause vascular constriction.
like i was saying earlier a very good friend of mine was having issues with circulation near his spine. this caused him a lot of pain and limited mobility. his doctor told him to give up nicotine entirely and the effects have been very profound.

so yes, a habitual / recreational dose can be detrimental to ones health.

Ah, i see where you were going with case by case. Yes, toxicity or detrimental effects can vary by person.

 

[Robino1]

less than 1 MG will give most people a bit of a buzz. a threshold doses like .1 or .2 mg can cause vascular constriction.
like i was saying earlier a very good friend of mine was having issues with circulation near his spine. this caused him a lot of pain and limited mobility. his doctor told him to give up nicotine entirely and the effects have been very profound.

so yes, a habitual / recreational dose can be detrimental to ones health.

To those that have the sensitivity to nicotine.
Mr. Robin is sensitive to caffeine. His heart has a strong reaction to the stuff. Could too much kill him? I don't know and I don't want to find out (shaddup Edd ). Would caffeine then be considered a poison to him?

We humans have the common sense, hopefully, to figure out how much nic we need before it hits toxic levels to our systems. Most times we figure it out by getting nic sick if we consume too much.

Nic sick: when we feel nauseated, sweats, shaky etc. If we stop using nic, we generally feel fine after an hour. Our bodies will let us know when we've overdone the nic intake.

 

[CES]

True enough when you're talking about clinical / recreational dosing, not so much storing jugs of things in the cupboard.

It's a meaningful category: I don't put caustic, volatile or poisonous things in reach of children, or in hard to identify bottles, or in places where I might mistake them for something else.

In that sense, nicotine containing liquid (particularly, but not exclusively, the high concentration stuff used for DIY) should be considered a poison.

so, trying to think this through, caustic and volatile substances can be/are poisonous too. Yes, treat biologically active substances with respect. But i agree with DC2, or what i think his intent was..that the term poison limits the ability to actively discuss and differentiate safe use, recreational use, medical use etc.

Just musing here...how does this discussion affect our behavior? I bet most people also keep chocolate and caffeine out of easy reach of children. But i also wonder whether more toxic stuff is stored in easier reach than non-toxic stuff. And in either case, not everyone worries about whether things in the cupboard or under the sink are well-labeled.

 

[generic mutant]

so, trying to think this through, caustic and volatile substances can be/are poisonous too. Yes, treat biologically active substances with respect. But i agree with DC2, or what i think his intent was..that the term poison limits the ability to actively discuss and differentiate safe use, recreational use, medical use etc.

Just musing here...how does this discussion affect our behavior? I bet most people also keep chocolate and caffeine out of easy reach of children. But i also wonder whether more toxic stuff is stored in easier reach than non-toxic stuff. And in either case, not everyone worries about whether things in the cupboard or under the sink are well-labeled.

Absolutely, and I think it's a useful discussion to have.

"Nicotine is a poison!" is often a short-cut to thinking, a slogan designed to cut off discussion.

But I think "Everything is a poison" can also be that too.

That's the sole point I'm really trying to make: everyone accepts that there's a qualitative distinction between a glass of milk and a glass of 10% nicotine, with respect to their potential to harm people or pets. That distinction is that the latter is 'a poison', irrespective of whether you could dilute it and make it safe, or whether milk becomes toxic at a certain point too.

 

[CES]

of course not everyone can tolerate milk

Everything has the potential to be toxic. Some things are more inherently toxic than others and some things are less inherently toxic than others.

What we need is good information to be able to make that determination for ourselves. Each of us titrates our nic dose (as Robino and others have mentioned), whether or not we know the numbers. Others use the "it's a poison" argument in an attempt to limit our ability to self-titrate our nic by a less harmful means. If we can use the information and our language well, we'll be better able to fight to retain recreational use at doses that are effective and not toxic.

 

[generic mutant]

of course not everyone can tolerate milk

Troublemaker

 

[EddardinWinter]

To those that have the sensitivity to nicotine.
Mr. Robin is sensitive to caffeine. His heart has a strong reaction to the stuff. Could too much kill him? I don't know and I don't want to find out (shaddup Edd ). Would caffeine then be considered a poison to him?

We humans have the common sense, hopefully, to figure out how much nic we need before it hits toxic levels to our systems. Most times we figure it out by getting nic sick if we consume too much.

Nic sick: when we feel nauseated, sweats, shaky etc. If we stop using nic, we generally feel fine after an hour. Our bodies will let us know when we've overdone the nic intake.

You made me spray coffee. Good one, and a good point as well.



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[generic mutant]

Could be worse anyway. Could be this stuff, a little over 14 grams of which could kill everyone.

http://www.newscientist.com/article...in-has-its-details-censored.html#.UlzkOdJJMhM

Cripes - if you're gonna be poisonous, do it properly, eh?

 

[happydave]

Could be worse anyway. Could be this stuff, a little over 14 grams of which could kill everyone.

http://www.newscientist.com/article...in-has-its-details-censored.html#.UlzkOdJJMhM

Cripes - if you're gonna be poisonous, do it properly, eh?

wow! now i wont sleep well for a week! 0_o

 

[EddardinWinter]

Which, I believe, was DC's reasoning in starting this thread.

I think DC may not have even known. I think DC was just being DC, pushing the envelope, so to speak. You never quite know where these discussions will go, but that is the point of having them, is it not? He knew some of the posters who would show up. I was late to the party, but I bet he expected a Panthera Leo would appear eventually. I knew GM would make an appearance. I am mildly surprised that some people did not make it...but some new faces in here which is nice, too.

In any case, it was a very interesting discussion, and it did not get too ugly. Sure, there were some tense moments...but a nice thread.

 

[hazarada]

but nicotine is a poison, a very potent neurotoxin to be exactit takes 4 drops of pure nicotine on the skin of a grown man to kill him, if thats not poison then might as well delete the word from the dictionary.Alternatively, the amount of nicotine i got in my mixing shelf right now can kill every child in the school i live next to. Nicotine is poison and a very dangerous one, don't be foolish and be responsible.

 

[CES]

but nicotine is a poison, a very potent neurotoxin to be exactit takes 4 drops of pure nicotine on the skin of a grown man to kill him, if thats not poison then might as well delete the word from the dictionary.Alternatively, the amount of nicotine i got in my mixing shelf right now can kill every child in the school i live next to. Nicotine is poison and a very dangerous one, don't be foolish and be responsible.

But that's the other point of this thread, the nicotine toxicity data for people that everyone has gone by until now was not based on good science.

and deleting the word poison might not be a bad idea- it's not informative. There are better descriptives that carry more information.

wiki is an easy reference for the reported oral LD50's, and it's even been updated...the concentrations for skin may be different due to the slower absorption rates

The LD50 of nicotine is 50 mg/kg for rats and 3 mg/kg for mice. 30–60 mg (0.5–1.0 mg/kg) can be a lethal dosage for adult humans.[5][62] However the widely used human LD50 estimate of 0.5–1.0 mg/kg was questioned in a 2013 review, in light of several documented cases of humans surviving much higher doses; the 2013 review suggests that the lower limit causing fatal out-comes is 500–1000 mg of ingested nicotine, corresponding to an oral lD50 of 6.5–13 mg/kg .[7]

5. "Nicotine (PIM)". Inchem.org. Retrieved 2012-12-19.
7. Mayer B (October 2013). "How much nicotine kills a human? Tracing back the generally accepted lethal dose to dubious self-experiments in the nineteenth century". Arch. Toxicol. doi:10.1007/s00204-013-1127-0. PMID 24091634.
62. Okamoto M, Kita T, Okuda H, Tanaka T, Nakashima T (Jul 1994). "Effects of aging on acute toxicity of nicotine in rats". Pharmacol Toxicol. 75 (1): 1–6. doi:10.1111/j.1600-0773.1994.tb00316.x. PMID 7971729.

I'd be much more worried about botox injections being contaminated with GM's new botulinum toxins. I think I'll keep my wrinkles.

 

[EddardinWinter]

But that's the other point of this thread, the nicotine toxicity data for people that everyone has gone by until now was not based on good science.

wiki is an easy reference for the reported oral LD50's, and it's even been updated...the concentrations for skin may be different due to the slower absorption rates



I'd be much more worried about botox injections being contaminated with GM's new botulinum toxins. I think I'll keep my wrinkles.

True Dat!

I am 44. I don't wanna look 32, or 25, or any of that junk. Hell, I look better today than I ever have. I know it is harder for women in some ways, but let me tell you my opinion on this matter. A woman in her forties who knows her age has benefits, has taken good care of herself, and is confident enough to own her age is damn sexy.

I know...the irony of the cheeleader-picture-posting poster boy for mid-life crisis talking about liking women who show their age is palpable. However, that does not make the assertion untrue.

Stay away from Botox.

 

[CES]

so, an anecdote added for supporting evidence: when one of my dogs was much younger, he ate a pack of cigarettes. The whole thing. oops. He was about ~40lbs at the time, ~18 kg. Smoking cigs yields ~ 1mg of nic/cig, so there's likely to be more nic in the unsmoked cig. But, let's use the conservative estimate, 'cause he might have missed a few crumbs of tobacco

20mgs for an 18kg dog is ~ 1.1 mg/kg. That dose is under the the LD50 reported for rats and mice but right at the old numbers reported for people...He raced and raced and raced around the house...for quite awhile (I have no problems with the characterization of nicotine as a stimulant). It was worrisome at the time, but he slowed down after an hour or so. Even with the wide differences between the LD 50 for rats and mice, I suspect that, for nicotine, the rodent data is more accurate than the people data.


(fingers crossed that your estimates for confident women holds up for women in their 50's too, Eddard )

 

[Nirk]

There is no clear definition for the word "poison", so this thread could go on forever. My opinion is that Nicotine in its original form when made by a plant, is intended as a poison, in the same way that caffeine is, a pesticide to kill insects etc. And possibly also to encourage pollination by having recreational effects at low doses and lethal effects at high doses.

But it seems that the word "poison" is out of date and does not really have a specific meaning, it would be better to say that pure nicotine is a highly toxic substance, in pure form similar or higher in toxicity compared to substances such as cyanide and strychnine.

In humans however at low - moderate doses (1-30mg a day) it would be better classed as a drug, as it does not have any serious toxic effects at low doses. Avoiding using the word "poison" again I would class it as a drug at low doses and an potent toxic substance at 100% purity. I still think that the titling of this thread is misleading and should be changed.

 

[generic mutant]

...Smoking cigs yields ~ 1mg of nic/cig, so there's likely to be more nic in the unsmoked cig. But, let's use the conservative estimate, 'cause he might have missed a few crumbs of tobacco
...

The consensus in this thread

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...e-getting-we-not-nicotine-50.html#post1311232

is that 90% of nicotine is destroyed in burning a cigarette, so that's a *very* conservative estimate. But then I have also read that nicotine isn't very efficiently absorbed in the stomach, so goodness only knows.

Must have been scary

 

[CES]

yep....scary at the time. since everything turned out ok, it's kinda funny in hindsight. The first indication of something wrong was waking to a dog bounding in laps around and across the bed, directly over a sleeping head. vrooooom... vrooooom...

 

[EddardinWinter]

(fingers crossed that your estimates for confident women holds up for women in their 50's too, Eddard )

I was more exclusive than I intended to be.

I think Jessica Lange is one of the sexiest women on earth, and she is in her sixties, I do believe.

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[Robino1]

You made me spray coffee. Good one, and a good point as well.



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Hahahahaha! Sorry about that