E-ciggs in Jail

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uba egar320

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Didn't someone once say something about You're judged as a people by how you treat the weakest in your society, or something along those lines? Just sayin...


And one more thing. Say you put down 50 blood thirsty killers. Hung'em high, justice served. One year later, evidence is found that one of those men was innocent. What then?...........Yeah, don't quite work out does it?
 

LowThudd

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It's really funny that you need to resort to personal attacks to convey your opinion, it shows your character quite well. I hope if someone in your family is murdered that you make sure none of his rights are violated and that he has a nice comfy bed, decent TV, and 3 highly nutritious meals a day. Please don't mind if he spits in your face during the trials, he has rights and who are you to challenge them?

In my opinion, an eye for an eye works quite well, if you revoke another person's rights, then yours should be revoked as well.


To be quite blunt, then you effin shoot them like a rabid dog.

No, that's not a personal attack at all. Is it. Lot's of people have problems, and that remark was directed at anyone who the poster disliked, including drug users. We are drug users, we use nicotine, and it could just as easily by turned into an illegal substance over night. After all, how many people die each yer from cigs. Around 200k. No body ever died from a popular "herbal remedy", which is near becoming legal here in CA. There will still be people in jail for it though.
 
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sailorman

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very true , when someone in any debate resorts to personal attacks it's obvous they have nothing valuable left to say.

It was not a personal attack. I simply labeled him in accordance with what he demonstrated himself to be by virtue of his own words. People who think the way he does are sociopaths. Nothing personal about it. I don't advocate he be swept from the gene pool the way he advocates other mentally defective people be. He should get help and I hope he does.

Perhaps you think I was also calling you and illuxion sociopaths because you seem to hold the same sentiments? I don't know, but methinks thou dost protest too much. IOW, if the shoe fits.....

As far as a member of my family, illuxion, being victimized, I would initially feel the kind of anger and desire for revenge anyone would. I have been in that position when my sister was assaulted. I would have killed the guy myself if I could have. But you know what? After awhile, I calmed down. I didn't begrudge him his rights. I never gave him the opportunity to "spit in my face" during the trial. He was convicted and believe me his bed was NOT "comfy", his TV was NOT "decent", and his meals, while adequate, could not be described as "highly nutritious". They were nutritious enough to prevent medical problems, and that's o.k. with me, especially since I would have had to pay for medical care made necessary by malnutrition and slow starvation was not an option despite how you would probably prefer things to be.

My sister eventually got over it and is doing fine, than you very much. He, OTOH, has that albatross around his neck for the rest of his life. He did almost 12 years and continues, and will continue, to pay for it forever. He's not on my Christmas list, nor that of my sister. But there comes a point where a victim's pain is their own fault because they let hate and revenge eat out their own insides. And, yes, I and my entire family were victims.

So, I've been on both sides of this fence. You, illuxion, talk about revoking rights as if a convicted criminal has any. I thought I straightened you out on that before. I want ALL defendants to have ALL their rights. Once they are convicted, they lose them. That is how it should be. Personally, I think they should be restored once their term is up, but that's not how it is in my state.

Eye for an eye justice is a vestige from primitive, barbaric societies. You seem to admire barbarity. That is your right, but don't expect to impose it on me. Hundreds of years of human progress has brought most of us beyond that.
 
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sailorman

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Didn't someone once say something about You're judged as a people by how you treat the weakest in your society, or something along those lines? Just sayin...


And one more thing. Say you put down 50 blood thirsty killers. Hung'em high, justice served. One year later, evidence is found that one of those men was innocent. What then?...........Yeah, don't quite work out does it?

They would probably call themselves Christians. Yet, wasn't it Jesus who said something to the effect of "How you treat the least of you, that's how you treat me"?

Or "Vengeance is mine"

Someone also said "Better that 100 guilty go free than one innocent man is convicted" or something to that effect. Evidently, they think it should be just the opposite.

Heck, just look at the statistics from the Innocence Project. Dozens of people who spent decades in prison, sometimes on death row, for crimes that dna evidence later proved they didn't committ. And that's just the cases they could get around to. How many people were already executed. They have a huge backlog and it is inevitable more will be executed before they can be cleared. There was a Governor, in Minnesota or Illinois I think, that put a moratorium on executions because so many of the condemned turned out to be innocent.

But, I guess their reasoning is Kill em all and let God sort em out.
 
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uba egar320

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I myself am for the death penalty. But I also think there should be a clause added where if someone who was put to death was later found innocent, the party responsible should have charges levied against them. JMO. Some way to balance out an injustice of that nature. Money for the family doesn't cut the cake if you ask me.
 

Automaton

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ubar egar - How does that solve anything? All that does is pay forward more pain. The death penalty is not only flawed in concept, but it does nothing to deter crime, or to help the victims. All it does it kill someone who may or may not be guilty, and cost the tax payer a ton of money.

Finding out we killed the wrong guy and then punishing more people for the failings of the system itself creates this never-ending chain of pain. Why not just avoid the whole issue and deal with crime justly, humanely, and in such a way to stop the pain from spreading?

sailorman - Possession and assault are totally different ball games, and it takes a totally different kind of person to do the latter. Don't throw yourself in the same category as someone who actually hurts and commits violence towards other people.

Running with what you said, at a certain point a victim has to make the decision to be a survivor. We live in a "victimizing" culture that encourages people to live their lives as victims forever, and that is so unhealthy. I think that encourages a lot of the bloodlust we see here. People have to decide to heal and be at peace.

I'm glad you and your sister are doing that, from the sounds of things.
 

illuxion

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Possession and assault are totally different ball games, and it takes a totally different kind of person to do the latter. Don't throw yourself in the same category as someone who actually hurts and commits violence towards other people.
A few years back I was charged with felony assault and a few other charges, but thankfully had a decent lawyer. I came out of a bar and a guy was beating the living hell out of his girlfriend(later discovered wife), split lip, bloody nose and still swinging on her. Like a valiant, and stupid, knight I pushed him mid swing as he was about to give her a NASTY right hook. I told him to knock it off but instead he started swinging at me, bad move for both of us. I proceeded to pummel him until we saw the police cars then both of us acted like best friends just having a small quarrel. The police came up and the woman started squealing swearing up and down that I attacked her husband out of the blue and I had knocked her down causing the damage on her face demanding that I be charged for assaulting both of them. Greeeaaat, here come the silver bracelets for me and a rather uncomfortable seat. I could hear most of the questioning of witnesses, but most only saw me beating him. There were 2 that saw the whole thing, but I guess the wife's testimony was a strong thing, and the husband keeping his mouth shut didn't help me at all. As it was a busy Friday night in the big NYC, I got to spend the night in county. I had a felony assault charge because I had "military training" and he was a civilian, hand to hand combat training for a submariner, yeah ok. I did know how to throw a jab or two, but it didn't come from the military, but that was the justification for my charges. I would have been in the hole for the whole weekend because I was too young and knew nothing of bondsman and such, but somehow shore patrol had gotten wind of it and came to bail me out. I was promptly taken to our base brig until my Capt came to get me Monday morning. I explained the whole thing to my captain and he seemed sympathetic but was pretty bound because I had civilian charges against me, felony charges. Anyhow, the lawyer my dad hired got it down to simple battery although of course the wife beater was never charged with a single thing. I got time served and 6 months probation. Of course I got to deal with the Navy after that and at Captain's Mast I got 1 week restriction and 1/2 pay for 1 month.

I guess I'm a violent person then. I boxed, wrestled, and played some pigskin in high school and boxed and wrestled in college. I had one fight in high school and one real fight as an adult, not counting my valiant knight disaster.

You can never judge a book by a cover, or the charges on the paper. Every circumstance is unique.

I beg to differ about death penalty deterring crime though. Our million miles of red tape and more than likely not getting death unless you are a serial killer deters nothing. The thought of holding up a liquor store with a gun being punishable by death, and a swift death at that, would surely be a serious deterrence. Being guaranteed that you will be dead by sunrise if there is HARD evidence that you shot someone would make some people take a second thought.

As far as petty crimes, I hate how we treat users as criminals. I believe that traffickers should be shot on sight, but users should be treated for the illness instead of blaming them for the outcome. Nedarlands has a great example of treating users. This only pertains to the heavy stuff though because I consider pot solely illegal because the government hasn't quite figured out how to properly get it's fingers in the mix even though it used to issue it.
 

uba egar320

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I understand your view. And in some cases I agree with you. But with people like this guy, that killed this poor little girl in the most brutal way..........I think you understand my view lol.

I hear a news story about these awful things happeneing to kids like this one, and I have trouble worrying about the thug that did it's right to breath. Predators don't change.
 

LowThudd

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Jessica Lunsford - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I understand your view. And in some cases I agree with you. But with people like this guy, that killed this poor little girl in the most brutal way..........I think you understand my view lol.

I hear a news story about these awful things happeneing to kids like this one, and I have trouble worrying about the thug that did it's right to breath. Predators don't change.

Not to mention the 40k a year it costs to house, feed, cloth etc.. someone that demonic for however long the infirmary can keep him alive for when he eventually has health problems in 30-40 years. That is 1.6+ million dollars to take care of this guy for the rest of his life, times how ever many thousands of the similar ilk there are.
 

LowThudd

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Got an answer, in 2010 there are 3,261 inmates on death row in the US. Obviously, some of these guys must be inocent however. So I do see your point Mistress. However, that is 5 billion or so dollars being spent on people who are primarily guilty. And I do think our justice system is flawed, and that is where we need the most work done, rather than finding a way to house all the individualls for 40+ years a piece.
 

sailorman

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I myself am for the death penalty. But I also think there should be a clause added where if someone who was put to death was later found innocent, the party responsible should have charges levied against them. JMO. Some way to balance out an injustice of that nature. Money for the family doesn't cut the cake if you ask me.

The other problem with that approach, besides doing no good for the dead person, is that at a practical level almost no one is found guilty after they're executed unless they have family and friends doggedly working (and spending money) in order to clear their name. Almost every time someone has been cleared after execution, it was because of DNA evidence. There are a lot of cases where that evidence doesn't exist. Also, it would never fly politically for the same reason that you can't hold judges responsible if someone gets out of jail and commits another crime, or hold psychiatrists responsible if a crime is committed by one of their patients who they had deemed safe for re-introduction into society.

The death penalty is simply a remnant of a time when society was less evolved and life was short, brutish and nasty. Only the most barbaric countries still share our practice of killing to prove killing is wrong. I am not in favor of it because it is grossly discriminatory (name one rich, white guy on death row) and it is not a deterrent. If it were, we'd have the lowest murder rate on earth and I might change my mind. This raises a dilemma in my mind because I feel it's actually more humane than life w/o hope of parole, which is the worst possible fate anyone could face, IMO. Personally, if I had to make the choice, I'd much rather be executed than face life w/o parole.

I don't understand why so many people who claim to believe in hell and who spout nonsense about treating prisoners badly favor the D.P.. After all, it's more expensive, it's no deterrent, and there's plenty of time for the convicted to suffer in hell. Why not give them a lifetime of hell on earth, where you can feel all fuzzy knowing they're suffering, before they get an eternity of it? I guess I would give them the choice. Either way, society will be protected from them and that should be the point.

MistressNomad - I don't know what I said to make you think I see no difference between someone guilty of possession and assault. There's absolutely a difference. That doesn't mean either one should be denied their rights when they are a defendant. And except for the firearms restrictions for violent felons, their rights should be restored when they are released so that they have a chance of turning themselves around and aren't put into the position of having to break the law again just to survive.

Innocent before being proven guilty still means something in my mind. I also don't make an exception for violent criminals insofar as my view on being treated cruelly in prison. Violent people should be incarcerated to protect other people from their violent actions. Period, end of story. Not for revenge or to be dehumanized or degraded or to generate income for the prison-industrial-complex or votes for politicians. After all, they will be getting out some day (presumably) and it does no one any good if they are less human than when they went in.

Also, there are a lot of people found guilty of assault who are not generally violent people and just went off the bean after getting drunk or in a fit of passion or whatever. This is not to excuse their behavior and they should certainly be punished, but it indicates they they are not "bad people" and are capable of being rehabilitated. These people are different than the "career criminals" and predators and should be dealt with more severely. A good bar fight can get you an assault charge if you don't have enough witness on your side to claim you grabbed that beer pitcher in self defense. It is a fact that nearly all people who commit violent assaults when they are young pose no threat when they are old, even with little in the way of rehabilitation. Take a violent young person and lock him up, treat him with a measure of humanity (assuming he behaves like a human in prison), and it's almost guaranteed that when you let him out at the age of 50 or 60, he will be no threat to anybody. Many anti-social behaviors are cured simply by the passage of time. I would have no particular concern if Charlie Manson were released and moved into my neighborhood. If he gave me a hard time, I'd kick his decrepit old ..... LOL
 

LowThudd

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A few years back I was charged with felony assault and a few other charges, but thankfully had a decent lawyer. I came out of a bar and a guy was beating the living hell out of his girlfriend(later discovered wife), split lip, bloody nose and still swinging on her. Like a valiant, and stupid, knight I pushed him mid swing as he was about to give her a NASTY right hook. I told him to knock it off but instead he started swinging at me, bad move for both of us. I proceeded to pummel him until we saw the police cars then both of us acted like best friends just having a small quarrel. The police came up and the woman started squealing swearing up and down that I attacked her husband out of the blue and I had knocked her down causing the damage on her face demanding that I be charged for assaulting both of them. Greeeaaat, here come the silver bracelets for me and a rather uncomfortable seat. I could hear most of the questioning of witnesses, but most only saw me beating him. There were 2 that saw the whole thing, but I guess the wife's testimony was a strong thing, and the husband keeping his mouth shut didn't help me at all. As it was a busy Friday night in the big NYC, I got to spend the night in county. I had a felony assault charge because I had "military training" and he was a civilian, hand to hand combat training for a submariner, yeah ok. I did know how to throw a jab or two, but it didn't come from the military, but that was the justification for my charges. I would have been in the hole for the whole weekend because I was too young and knew nothing of bondsman and such, but somehow shore patrol had gotten wind of it and came to bail me out. I was promptly taken to our base brig until my Capt came to get me Monday morning. I explained the whole thing to my captain and he seemed sympathetic but was pretty bound because I had civilian charges against me, felony charges. Anyhow, the lawyer my dad hired got it down to simple battery although of course the wife beater was never charged with a single thing. I got time served and 6 months probation. Of course I got to deal with the Navy after that and at Captain's Mast I got 1 week restriction and 1/2 pay for 1 month.

I guess I'm a violent person then. I boxed, wrestled, and played some pigskin in high school and boxed and wrestled in college. I had one fight in high school and one real fight as an adult, not counting my valiant knight disaster.

You can never judge a book by a cover, or the charges on the paper. Every circumstance is unique.

I beg to differ about death penalty deterring crime though. Our million miles of red tape and more than likely not getting death unless you are a serial killer deters nothing. The thought of holding up a liquor store with a gun being punishable by death, and a swift death at that, would surely be a serious deterrence. Being guaranteed that you will be dead by sunrise if there is HARD evidence that you shot someone would make some people take a second thought.

As far as petty crimes, I hate how we treat users as criminals. I believe that traffickers should be shot on sight, but users should be treated for the illness instead of blaming them for the outcome. Nedarlands has a great example of treating users. This only pertains to the heavy stuff though because I consider pot solely illegal because the government hasn't quite figured out how to properly get it's fingers in the mix even though it used to issue it.

Honestly? I would have ended up in the same situation as you. But that's when it pays to know how to grapple and restrain someone. Don't know if you are into MMA, but the most incredile fight I've seen ever is when 160 pound Royce Gracie, using JuiJistu, managed to beat a 400+ pound Judo expert through submission. IT is THE fight, if you want to see a perfect example of why grappling is important. BTW, the judo fighter walked off the arena, however Royce was spent and needed his brothers to hold him up while he accepted victory. Amazing.
 

Shotline

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We have a saying at work, "If you don't want to go to jail, don't break the law." Yes it is a simplistic answer, but it is really that simple. If you don't break the law you won't go to jail. (this obviously excludes anyone wrongly convicted but that is another discussion).

I see so many times the same people coming back to jail over and over and over. They don't learn, they keep doing the same things, committing the same crimes and they wonder why they end up in jail. And then when they are in jail, they act in the same way that got them put there to begin with. Breaking the rules, committing new crimes IN JAIL!!!

There are a few people who make a "mistake" and end up in jail and do their time and get out and never come back, but they are the minority. I would estimate that about 75% of the people in the jail I work in don't ever learn their lesson and ultimately they end up doing time in prison.
 

Dimbulb

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We have a saying at work, "If you don't want to go to jail, don't break the law." Yes it is a simplistic answer, but it is really that simple. If you don't break the law you won't go to jail. (this obviously excludes anyone wrongly convicted but that is another discussion).

I see so many times the same people coming back to jail over and over and over. They don't learn, they keep doing the same things, committing the same crimes and they wonder why they end up in jail. And then when they are in jail, they act in the same way that got them put there to begin with. Breaking the rules, committing new crimes IN JAIL!!!

There are a few people who make a "mistake" and end up in jail and do their time and get out and never come back, but they are the minority. I would estimate that about 75% of the people in the jail I work in don't ever learn their lesson and ultimately they end up doing time in prison.

i bet none of your so called reguler crims wonder why there there, criminals have brains,
 

sailorman

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A few years back I was charged with felony assault and a few other charges, but thankfully had a decent lawyer. I came out of a bar and a guy was beating the living hell out of his girlfriend(later discovered wife), split lip, bloody nose and still swinging on her. Like a valiant, and stupid, knight I pushed him mid swing as he was about to give her a NASTY right hook. I told him to knock it off but instead he started swinging at me, bad move for both of us. .......

I had almost the same thing happen to me except there were 2 guys beating on a girl I knew and the cops sat less than 100 feet away and ignored the whole thing while they kicked the crap out of me. I still have a crooked nose because of it. The worst part was, the girl who's .... I had just saved from god knows what just walked away without so much as a thanks.


.....Anyhow, the lawyer my dad hired got it down to simple battery although of course the wife beater was never charged with a single thing. I got time served and 6 months probation. Of course I got to deal with the Navy after that and at Captain's Mast I got 1 week restriction and 1/2 pay for 1 month.

And what would have happened if you were in your beloved Asia, and/or you had to rely on an overworked and underpaid public defender like millions of other defendants? I guess that instant and severe justice you advocate for others would not be such a great idea when you are the one on the dock.

I guess I'm a violent person then. I boxed, wrestled, and played some pigskin in high school and boxed and wrestled in college. I had one fight in high school and one real fight as an adult, not counting my valiant knight disaster.
I'm not. I never had a fight since elementary school before that parking lot incident that broke my nose. Yet, I'm the ex-felon whose life has been severely handicapped by the system for the last 25 years. Go figure.

You can never judge a book by a cover, or the charges on the paper. Every circumstance is unique.

That sounds rather contradictory coming from someone who advocates shooting traffickers "on sight".


I beg to differ about death penalty deterring crime though. Our million miles of red tape and more than likely not getting death unless you are a serial killer deters nothing. The thought of holding up a liquor store with a gun being punishable by death, and a swift death at that, would surely be a serious deterrence. Being guaranteed that you will be dead by sunrise if there is HARD evidence that you shot someone would make some people take a second thought.

Swift death penalty would be a good idea as soon as we have a perfect criminal justice and court system. As soon as all cops and witnesses are honest, prosecutors don't have higher political ambitions, and all evidence is as it first appears. There are plenty of people who were convicted on "hard" evidence and later exonerated, sometimes years or decades later. Would you consider eyewitness evidence "hard"? Most people do, yet it's the most unreliable evidence possible. I would think that what happened to you would have taught you better. What if that guy had died? Do you think his wife would have testified on your behalf? How many years later would she have had a change of heart and told the truth? Would you have been dead by then? After all, the evidence was pretty "hard".

The fact is that most murders are done without pre-meditation. Serial killers are relatively rare psychos and don't give a flip about penalties. Contract killers rarely get caught. Most run-of-the-mill murders are committed in the heat of the moment or in conjunction with another crime. There is no thought about potential penalties. There are exceptions of course, but that is the general rule and you can't fashion law based on the exceptions and expect a successful outcome. The lack of murders in your beloved Asian systems has more to do with firearm prohibitions than swift justice.

As far as petty crimes, I hate how we treat users as criminals. I believe that traffickers should be shot on sight, but users should be treated for the illness instead of blaming them for the outcome. Nedarlands has a great example of treating users. This only pertains to the heavy stuff though because I consider pot solely illegal because the government hasn't quite figured out how to properly get it's fingers in the mix even though it used to issue it.

We could mostly agree here, though shooting traffickers "on sight" is pretty ridiculous. What is trafficking and how is it different than dealing to support your habit? Most importantly, how would you tell the difference "on sight".
You'd be surprised how little of a drug is needed to be charged with trafficking, especially the harder drugs that people are most likely to sell as part of a "group buy" or to support a habit. One prescription bottle of certain pills would get you a trafficking charge, as would one ounce of croakane.
So, If someone arranges a group buy of an ounce of croakane with 4 or 5 or 8 of his friends so he can get a good price and feed his habit without robbing you, is he trafficking? The law would say so. Should he be "shot on sight"? Not all people who fit the legal definition of trafficking fit the stereotypes the media promotes. I'd trust a trafficker over an alcoholic child beater, mugger or crackhead any day.

BTW, when I was locked up and especially in the Salvation Army work release program, the staff loved the traffickers. These guys, caught with an ounce or two in their possession were the smartest, least violent, most stable and responsible inmates they had to deal with. They dominated the "honor wings" of the living facilities and worked the most responsible jobs. I worked with some of them. Only a miniscule minority of people convicted of trafficking fit the Scarface stereotype. In the U.S., kingpins get buried deep under the foundations of the Federal maximum security prisons with 100-200 year mandatory sentences.

You know who the worst criminals are in terms of recidivism and generally anti-social behavior? Burglars!! That's right. If you were to set sentences solely based on recidivism rates, burglars would get life and murderers would get 10 years.
 
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Automaton

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I understand your view. And in some cases I agree with you. But with people like this guy, that killed this poor little girl in the most brutal way..........I think you understand my view lol.

I hear a news story about these awful things happeneing to kids like this one, and I have trouble worrying about the thug that did it's right to breath. Predators don't change.

No, I don't. I don't think there is ever an excuse for murder, short of dire cases of self-defense.

As we've already been over, it's not like prison in this country is paradise. Especially not for people who hurt kids.

Murder is immoral is any sophisticated society. The death penalty also costs taxpayers more money, due to the cost of court appeals (16+ years, on average) and housing them in the superior fascilities afforded to inmates on death row.
 

LowThudd

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We have a saying at work, "If you don't want to go to jail, don't break the law." Yes it is a simplistic answer, but it is really that simple. If you don't break the law you won't go to jail. (this obviously excludes anyone wrongly convicted but that is another discussion).

I see so many times the same people coming back to jail over and over and over. They don't learn, they keep doing the same things, committing the same crimes and they wonder why they end up in jail. And then when they are in jail, they act in the same way that got them put there to begin with. Breaking the rules, committing new crimes IN JAIL!!!

There are a few people who make a "mistake" and end up in jail and do their time and get out and never come back, but they are the minority. I would estimate that about 75% of the people in the jail I work in don't ever learn their lesson and ultimately they end up doing time in prison.

Repeat offenders. True. But there is also alot of psycolgical profiling and reseach that has been done to point out that once a person is incarcerated for a lesser offence, and kept in prison with "True" criminals/sociopaths, that the only defense they have to survive is to become similar in spirit to the fellow inmates. Pack thinking. And lesser criminals are often put in the same cell w/ institutionalized inmates. That is a statistical fact also. Prisoners often, and even guards sometimes, use scare tactics to keep noobies in line. This has the similar effect of "brainwashing" on a person, and they start to believe that they themselves are as much lowlifes as their fellow inmates. This, IMO, is often done because once they are in prison, it doesn't matter what they have done, they are all treated the "same" for the extent of their stay.

inmates institutionalized - Google Search
 
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