E-ciggs in Jail

[LowThudd]

OK, another perspective. I respect animals greatly, but if a rabid wolf/bear whatever started ravanging people, killing a few. Would you be against there humane dispatching? If you say yes, you are indeed in the minority. If you say no, you are a hypocraite, because the actions and end results of said individuals is the same. Animals are given far less chances to prove innocence of even the WORST offenders, reguardless of race, in our society.

 

[sailorman]

Apearantly you didn't understand me. Even w/ court costs it evens out in the end. Jail is a terrible faite for horrible people(ONLY if they deserve it. We agree that many do not), and the death penalty is there for worthless sociopaths who have no use in society, or even jail. What is the point to keeping these horrible people who have no empathy towards men woman and children alive. Why...what can be gained. Nothing. Morality has nothing to do with it. Assuming these scum are actually guilty, they serve no purpose AT all. They are just a waste of resources and fresh air. Eff um. Let it go, these scum most of them would kill you and everyone you love to get free. They aren't even worth worrying about.

I don't worry much about them, that's not my point. I don't agree at all that it evens out in the end. But, even if it did, your assumption that these "scum" are actually guilty is a giant leap of faith I'm not willing to take. Recent events have proven that it is, in fact, a leap of faith. Too many innocent people have been discovered on death row or doing LWOP.

BTW, who would you kill if you were facing the D.P.? Would you be more or less likely to kill again if you were facing LWOP? The vast majority of murderers are doing LWOP. If you're theory was true, murder would be rampant among institutions were they were being held. But it's not. Fact is, the vast majority of murderers never killed before and would probably never kill again. I know TV tells you different, but that is a fact. It's only the "probably" part that provides justification not to release them back into society at some point. Again, they used to parole murderers all the time. They didn't stop it because of recidivism. They didn't stop it because it didn't work. They stopped it because of sensationalism and political pressure.

The only way to ensure, without doubt, that the D.P. is cheaper than LWOP is to take measures that will result in even MORE errors in the system and even MORE innocent people being murdered by the state.

Sorry, but you can't argue that morality has nothing to do with it. Morality has EVERYTHING to do with it. If the point is not money, what else is there? Deterrence? That's a moral issue.

If we wanted to be absolutely sure, (probably impossible), that we weren't murdering innocent people, a DP trial would be even MORE costlier. Then, there would be absolutely no doubt that LWOP is cheaper.

So, why do we risk murdering innocent people? Money? (savings are debatable) Deterrence? (that benefit is Highly doubtful) That only leaves revenge. So, we probably pay a dollar premium for the privilege of satisfying our sense of revenge, while we undeniably take a clear and proven risk of murdering innocent people ourselves. Sorry, but that makes no sense to me, either morally or economically or pragmatically.

Let's not forget, as the Duke study points out, the "opportunity costs" of imposing the D.P..
D.P. cases take up many more resources than LWOP cases. Those resources could, and should, be used for other things, like apprehending and prosecuting other criminals. They are hard to quantify exactly, but those costs are undeniable.

So, in a day of limited resources, while that investigator is doing all the extra work required for a DP case, the trail of the thug who killed your brother is getting colder. While the DAs office is doing all the extra work needed for a DP case, they have to scrimp on the less publicized case against the guy who raped your sister. Is your bloodlust worth it? Few DAs offices are provided extra resources just for DP cases. The extra resources needed for a DP case are diverted from other cases. Maybe one of those cases is yours.

 

[sailorman]

OK, another perspective. I respect animals greatly, but if a rabid wolf/bear whatever started ravanging people, killing a few. Would you be against there humane dispatching? If you say yes, you are indeed in the minority. If you say no, you are a hypocraite, because the actions and end results of said individuals is the same. Animals are given far less chances to prove innocence of even the WORST offenders, reguardless of race, in our society.

That is a false dichotomy. That's like asking if your dog can't get a job, should you feed him.
Animals are not people. They do not kill for the same reasons and they do not refrain from killing for the same reasons. They do not kill from passion, drugs, alcohol or greed. Unlike with people, there is no data to show that if a wolf killed someone, there is a reasonable chance he wouldn't do it again. Rogue bears cannot be rehabilitated. Rabid dogs cannot manage anger. Wolves, dogs and bears are immune from reason.

I suspect that if someone came up with a reliable method to teach a killer bear not to kill, bears who kill people would be subjected to that training instead of being put down, at least domestic ones would. Did they eventually kill that whale at SeaWorld? Regardless, I know his last kill was not his first. In fact, there are other cases of a domestic animal attacking someone and NOT being put down because of the circumstances under which it happened. Wild animals are not given the same consideration, simply because there is no human investment in them.

Things are not as black and white as "action and end result" the way you imply. If that was the case, there would be no sentencing hearings for anything. There would only be fixed, statutory penalties for a given crime. Some binary thinkers believe that is the way it should be, hence mandatory drug laws. But they are the biggest travesty ever perpetrated on the criminal justice system and are a holdover from more primitive and barbaric societies. I hope we have evolved past that way of thinking. I have my doubts.

 

[sailorman]

I'll ask you this. If you were walking through the plains of Africa on a phot-safari and a lion attacked you, should it be killed? If so, why? Just because it did what lions do? Or, because it poses a threat in the future?

Wouldn't it make mores sense to create an atmosphere where the lion posed no more threat, like getting the hell out of his territory? Or, relocate him if possible, or confine him if there were no other alternative?

If you kill a rattlesnake in the desert because it bit you and ran away, you are just being stupid. If that rattlesnake is in your yard or a playground, that's a different issue.

If you kill a wasp that stung you, do you do it BECAUSE he stung you? Would you chase it down the road to kill it? Or, do you kill it so it won't sting you again? If you killed it because it stung you, you are being childish. A rational human does not kill an offending animal as a "penalty". They do it for protection. If an alternative exists, a rational, humane person will employ it.

Merely considering "action and end result" is simpleminded.

Your attempt to compare a murderer to an animal that kills doesn't hold up.
Killing killers, be they man or beast, should only be done as a last resort and for protection. Not for revenge.

 

[sailorman]

OK, another perspective. I respect animals greatly, but if a rabid wolf/bear whatever started ravanging people, killing a few. Would you be against there humane dispatching? If you say yes, you are indeed in the minority. If you say no, you are a hypocraite, because the actions and end results of said individuals is the same. Animals are given far less chances to prove innocence of even the WORST offenders, reguardless of race, in our society.

I had to think about this awhile longer. You say you respect animals. If there was a way to cure that rabid animal and return him to the wild, or to keep him in a zoo, where even if he wasn't cured of his propensity to kill, he couldn't hurt anybody again, would you do it?

If you say no, you are either willing to kill him for revenge or economic purposes, or you must claim deterrent value as the only rationale. As we know, the evidence for that is non-existent for animals and exceedingly flimsy for humans.
You'd kill humans for a flimsy rationale.

If you say yes, you respect an animal more than a human.

Which is it?

 

[reeveh]

Too many potential weapons with an ecig. And, why cater to their needs. They are in there for a reason. Let them suffer.

 

[Noctoru]

Wow, where to start. I guess I'll just say I agree with "When you break the law, you lose your rights" and prison is too soft now. Comfy bed, hot meals, workouts, education, television, games... Shoot, I should file for bankruptcy and go to prison. No more bills!!! WOOO

 

[uba egar320]

They already have tv's in some prisons. You can make a weapon out of just about anything, so that really shouldn't be a concern imo.

 

[Nepenthy]

Ive turned a few old 510 batteries into a shank by mistake, from trying to remove the connector. A battery tube or atomizer body could be turned into a weapon easy. Ever stab a potato with a drinking straw? The straw will go right through it without much force at all, and thats flimsy plastic. Cant imagine the damage you could do with a thin, metal straw.

 

[uba egar320]

I get that one can be used for that. But did you know there is a metal strip in just about every shoe made? Or a toothbrush can hold a razor or a sharp point? Or if you take a plastic bag a melt it and roll it up and melt it again it will eventually get hard enough to hold a sharp point. My point is, just about anything can be made into a weapon if you put a bit of thought into it.

 

[PaDrO]

Wow, where to start. I guess I'll just say I agree with "When you break the law, you lose your rights" and prison is too soft now. Comfy bed, hot meals, workouts, education, television, games... Shoot, I should file for bankruptcy and go to prison. No more bills!!! WOOO

I was just skimming over the thread, while i normally keep my personal life to myself i just had to comment on this.. After turning in some scrap metal that was not mine from a bridge reconstruction job site, the $90 worth of used metal, was a costly $1000 brand new, and i was prosecuted as an example to the fullest extent even though i had no record... I ended up going to County jail for the first time in my life for 6 months on a felony charge.. Once there it was nothing like you say as being soft, the steel bed with 2" of foam, 1 luke warm meal a day, 1 cold, and a donut for breakfest.. They took away all lifting weights, and unless you play chess and checkers there wan't any games.. Eat, TV, TV, Eat, Sleep, TV, Workout, Sleep, Eat, TV, TV, Sleep.. and come to learn that being away from your kids and wife is about the most stressful thing i've ever had to endure in my entire life.... Sorry didn't wanna tell my life story, just had to reiterate that it's in no way what it sounds..

PaDrO

 

[uba egar320]

That sucks they did that to you. Folks like you should never see the inside of a jail. There are plenty of ways for a judge to get his point across without exposing a decent working man to society's worst.

 

[PaDrO]

Ya tell me about it, At the time metal prices were really high, and there was ALOT of thefts of copper and other metals from buildings and what not.. My public defender said the judges were trying to make examples, and wanted to send me to prison for 1-3 years... Instead i got 4 months in jail, and 5 years of and adult baby sitter for probation..

As for e-cigs, they are so strict in Jail you have like no privs.. From what people said, in Statre prisons they are allowed to smoke here so would be interesting none the less..

 

[DivaB]

No way. Prisoners are there for a reason. First off they don't need any spa treatment and secondly, there are to many dangerous variables to having hardware like this.

 

[uba egar320]

No way. Prisoners are there for a reason. First off they don't need any spa treatment and secondly, there are to many dangerous variables to having hardware like this.

What spa treatment dude? It's rough. I had a pal that was never the same after some hard time. When you expose a decent person to a gladiator school, they come out with bad new friends, or a better understanding on how to be a more effective criminal. SO you think the guy in the above post needed to have his well being put at risk over some scrap metal? Community service is nasty hard work and just as effective imo.

 

[sl_rat]

can't we solve world peace first???

 

[R1ppy]

Seeing as they are not allowed analogs anymore I don't see why they would be allowed pv's..

 

[uba egar320]

My argument is that it could be a privilege. Remember, there are good men and women that are locked up that are going to be amongst us again. Treating people like animals, and then expecting them to act "normal" when they get out isn't a way to prepare them for the rest of their lives imo. Also, good men and women work inside of the facilities watching over the inmates. I think anything we can do to create a more livable atmosphere for the inmates(getting a nicotine fix as a privilege) can go a long way in making it a safer work place as well. I could be wrong lol. But that's my two cents.

 

[Noctoru]

I was just skimming over the thread, while i normally keep my personal life to myself i just had to comment on this.. After turning in some scrap metal that was not mine from a bridge reconstruction job site, the $90 worth of used metal, was a costly $1000 brand new, and i was prosecuted as an example to the fullest extent even though i had no record... I ended up going to County jail for the first time in my life for 6 months on a felony charge.. Once there it was nothing like you say as being soft, the steel bed with 2" of foam, 1 luke warm meal a day, 1 cold, and a donut for breakfest.. They took away all lifting weights, and unless you play chess and checkers there wan't any games.. Eat, TV, TV, Eat, Sleep, TV, Workout, Sleep, Eat, TV, TV, Sleep.. and come to learn that being away from your kids and wife is about the most stressful thing i've ever had to endure in my entire life.... Sorry didn't wanna tell my life story, just had to reiterate that it's in no way what it sounds..

PaDrO

I was mainly being facetious. No insult was intended.

 

[LowThudd]

Kay, first off Animals like primates that are taught to smoke for experimentation are being exploited and abused IMHO. So the whole "give them PVs or they are being treated like animals" philosiphy doesn't fly.

Second, there is still the fact that these devices can be dangerous, even if inocently mishandled. So, it is obvious then that they can easily be purpousfully mishandled in a wrongfull manner.
The arguement that the already have several items that can be made into a weapon doesn't fly. You cannot tell me that it makes sense to give prisoners a source for MORE potential deadly weapons because they already have them. That logic makes no sense what so ever.

It's very simple, they don't need them. It is not a requirement, it would be a luxury. And luxuries are more closely monitered than necessities. Honestly, jail sux. And I wish we had a system that only sent deserving people to jail, but we don't. That does not mean that we should soften up jail for all inmates because a few doen't deserve to be there. That don't fly.