E Juice not a tobacco product????

[VV_James]

Are you concerned that People selling e-liquids May/Will have to conform to Fed and State and County requirements to sell a tobacco Product?

Or that Liquid Flavored e-liquid Sale may be Drastically Restricted?

Concerned?
Of course I'm concerned!

However, I'm enough of a realist to understand that there's not a damned thing we can do about it 1 way or the other...

The corporations that currently own this country and most of the rest of the world will, at some point, instruct all the bureaucrats on what policies to pass and that will be that.

Yeah, I sign all the petitions, and all that... and I convert as many smokers to vapers as I Possibly can (because increasing the profitability of vaping is the only hope we truly have) But even though the FDA and other bureaucracies will sit and politely listen to our facts, reports, research, and arguments...

Ultimately it's going to come down to another case of follow the money, and what's going to benefit our corporate owners the most.

AND when (not if) that comes to pass... We'll deal with it, because that's what we do.

Worse case scenario: We are restricted to selling only 0mg juice, and the internet gets flooded with instructional videos and tutorials on how to extract your own nicotine from tobacco, or patches.

And there's a sudden boom in the DIY market, because nothing they pass is going to take PG/VG/ and artificial flavoring off the market... It simply has too many other wide spread uses...

So my follow-up question is why would you get so stressed out and invest so much emotional real estate into something you have absolutely no control over??

 

[zoiDman]

Concerned?
Of course I'm concerned!

However, I'm enough of a realist to understand that there's not a damned thing we can do about it 1 way or the other...

The corporations that currently own this country and most of the rest of the world will, at some point, instruct all the bureaucrats on what policies to pass and that will be that.

...

So my follow-up question is why would you get so stressed out and invest so much emotional real estate into something you have absolutely no control over??

Because some of Us feel there Might be Other ways to Steer Policies.

You mentioned that it's All About Money (Loosely Translated). Perhaps that Angle is a Viable Direction to Take?

Could e-Liquids be pushed as a Fantastic Tax Vehicle? And that there Restriction would be bring in Less Tax Revenues than if they were allowed to be sold? With Regulation of Course. The Feds and States Love/Need Taxes.

Isn't that what the e-Liquid Trade Organizations are Pushing for?

Make no Mistake. It is Going to be Ugly. And what we have as Vapers and Retailers is about to Change. Big Time.

But Doing Nothing is going to Accomplish Nothing.

 

[DC2]

Believing we have no control over it is how we come to have no control over it.
If it becomes political suicide to be on the wrong side of an issue, no politician will be on the wrong side of that issue.

 

[VV_James]

Believing we have no control over it is how we come to have no control over it.
If it becomes political suicide to be on the wrong side of an issue, no politician will be on the wrong side of that issue.

Well, I agree with your first statement... Wholeheartedly!
But, that time has already passed...

However, as to the second statement... As long as they keep getting paid they're going to continue to do as they're told...
Politicians commit political suicide every day, and most of them go on to live lucrative careers as advisers, lobbyists, special correspondents, etc, etc, etc...

No, as long as corporations, or any other entity incapable of bleeding real blood is granted the same rights and privileges as a living, breathing, bleeding, Homo-Sapiens there will be no real campaign reform, no real spending limits for political campaigns, no mainstream journalistic integrity, and the only honest politicians are the ones who stay bought.

 

[zoiDman]

... honest politicians ...

This Must have Been a Typographical Error.

LOL

 

[zoiDman]

...If it becomes political suicide to be on the wrong side of an issue, no politician will be on the wrong side of that issue.

This has Always been True.

So what is the Best Way to Use this FACT to the e-Cigarette Community's Favor?

 

[flintlock62]

Bloomberg may be an exception!

Believing we have no control over it is how we come to have no control over it.
If it becomes political suicide to be on the wrong side of an issue, no politician will be on the wrong side of that issue.

 

[zoiDman]

Bloomberg may be an exception!

I wonder how Much Farther Bloomberg can get with what he has Done?

I'm still trying to find a Group that he Hasn't ...... Off.

 

[Coastal Cowboy]

I wonder how Much Farther Bloomberg can get with what he has Done?

I'm still trying to find a Group that he Hasn't ...... Off.

Bloomberg views himself as a parent. Parents don't care if they piss off their children as long as they think they're doing what they're doing for the kids' own good.

And, be real. Who argues with Daddy?

 

[Coastal Cowboy]

No, as long as corporations, or any other entity incapable of bleeding real blood is granted the same rights and privileges as a living, breathing, bleeding, Homo-Sapiens there will be no real campaign reform, no real spending limits for political campaigns, no mainstream journalistic integrity, and the only honest politicians are the ones who stay bought.

I disagree, and so did the Supreme Court in Citizens United. Any entity subject to the taxing and regulatory power of Congress and the Executive Branch should have the opportunity of free speech and the right to seek redress of its grievances before the Judiciary Branch.

Campaign contributions and lobbying are both activities protected under the First Amendment to the Constitution. As a consultant, lobbyist and frequent campaign contributor myself, I will die fighting for my rights to speak and to be heard.

Edit: My experience is that as long as the lobbyist or campaign contributor is on the side of the supporter, lobbying and cash flow is Ok. It's only when the other side has lobbyists and contributors that these things are bad. Funny how that works...

 

[VV_James]

I disagree, and so did the Supreme Court in Citizens United. Any entity subject to the taxing and regulatory power of Congress and the Executive Branch should have the opportunity of free speech and the right to seek redress of its grievances before the Judiciary Branch.

Campaign contributions and lobbying are both activities protected under the First Amendment to the Constitution. As a consultant, lobbyist and frequent campaign contributor myself, I will die fighting for my rights to speak and to be heard.

Edit: My experience is that as long as the lobbyist or campaign contributor is on the side of the supporter, lobbying and cash flow is Ok. It's only when the other side has lobbyists and contributors that these things are bad. Funny how that works...

Well... I've had this conversation before... Citizens United was only 1 of countless mistakes made by the supreme court... Unfortunately putting THAT particular Genie back in the bottle may prove impossible without the complete and utter apocalyptic destruction of our current society...

It's a crying shame that all the Mayan Calendar Apocalypse people were wrong... This world could use a good scrubbing... This experiment has obviously failed, it's time to scrap it and start over...

Unfortunately, the ball can't bounce till it's hit the bottom, and we've got a long ways to fall yet...

 

[VV_James]

Concerned?
Of course I'm concerned!

However, I'm enough of a realist to understand that there's not a damned thing we can do about it 1 way or the other...

The corporations that currently own this country and most of the rest of the world will, at some point, instruct all the bureaucrats on what policies to pass and that will be that.

Yeah, I sign all the petitions, and all that... and I convert as many smokers to vapers as I Possibly can (because increasing the profitability of vaping is the only hope we truly have) But even though the FDA and other bureaucracies will sit and politely listen to our facts, reports, research, and arguments...

Ultimately it's going to come down to another case of follow the money, and what's going to benefit our corporate owners the most.

AND when (not if) that comes to pass... We'll deal with it, because that's what we do.

Worse case scenario: We are restricted to selling only 0mg juice, and the internet gets flooded with instructional videos and tutorials on how to extract your own nicotine from tobacco, or patches.

And there's a sudden boom in the DIY market, because nothing they pass is going to take PG/VG/ and artificial flavoring off the market... It simply has too many other wide spread uses...

So my follow-up question is why would you get so stressed out and invest so much emotional real estate into something you have absolutely no control over??

I'm going to stand by my first statement... Beyond that everything is simply to depressing to worry over... As I stated to begin with, it's not worth the emotional real estate it costs...

I was better off snoozing.

 

[Coastal Cowboy]

Well... I've had this conversation before... Citizens United was only 1 of countless mistakes made by the supreme court... Unfortunately putting THAT particular Genie back in the bottle may prove impossible without the complete and utter apocalyptic destruction of our current society...

It's a crying shame that all the Mayan Calendar Apocalypse people were wrong... This world could use a good scrubbing... This experiment has obviously failed, it's time to scrap it and start over...

Unfortunately, the ball can't bounce till it's hit the bottom, and we've got a long ways to fall yet...

Well, let's put it this way, my friend.

When CASAA gets to a funding level at which they can afford to do so, they will hire lobbyists and lawyers, and they will begin making campaign contributions to candidates who support their goals of reducing tobacco harm reduction.

We should support their right to do so, and support their right to make our voices heard because they represent us.

Today, CASAA is only about 7,000 members strong. But just imagine the impact of 70,000 and a call to action to support a particular candidate who has seen the light. Imagine then that candidate gets elected, and gets him/herself appointed to the committee responsible for oversight of Health and Human Services, the parent agency of FDA. Now, we are flexing the same kind of muscle flexed by unions seeking waivers on THR measures for their members, companies seeking waivers for THR measures for their employees and ... dare it be said? ...

Tobacco companies seeking to enter and expand a market. That's how things work, today.

 

[BigBen2k]

...
Today, CASAA is only about 7,000 members strong. But just imagine the impact of 70,000 ...

That's a problem, no?

Do you think CASAA will ever reach 70'000 members? How long would it take?

Why should anyone join CASAA; why can't we just trust the powers that be that a reasonable decision will be made? Why can't I just vape, and not have to worry that some other lobbyist is going to try to twist things out of the reasonable?

(not knocking CASAA; just trying to make a point)

 

[DC2]

However, as to the second statement... As long as they keep getting paid they're going to continue to do as they're told...
Politicians commit political suicide every day, and most of them go on to live lucrative careers as advisers, lobbyists, special correspondents, etc, etc, etc...

I operate under the following set of assumptions...

1) That electronic cigarettes can save millions of lives
2) That placing certain regulations on electronic cigarettes can make them far less effective
3) That making electronic cigarettes far less effective can be equated to purposely killing smokers
4) That it is possible to someday make the general public come to understand the above assumptions through education
5) That if the general public comes to understand the above assumptions, no politician will want to side with purposely killing smokers

I will continue to operate under those assumptions until it is too late.
And I will continue to encourage others to do the same.

 

[thompsondd]

If it isn't derived from the tobacco plant, then I don't know how it could be considered a tabacco product.

But then again, if we are talking about the government and how it views things, common sense isn't a requirement. As a matter of fact, common sense is often counter-intuitive to most government things.

After all, these are the same people that will pay $800 for a toilet seat and $1300 for a wrench, leave BILLIONS of dollars of military hardware overseas, yet cut our troops down to two hot meals a day over sequestration yet give MILLIONS of dollars away overseas.

The same people that also managed to get a tomato reclassified as a vegetable so they they could collect interstate commerce taxes (Nix vs Hadden 1883): and I quote "The case eventually ended up in the Supreme Court, which decided that while tomatoes are indeed botanically defined as fruit, consumers think of tomatoes as vegetables, and that is how they should be legally defined."

Oh boy, if we leave decisions to be made based on how consumers 'think', we are screwed in so many ways, and I am not just referring to vaping.

Yet, that is what happened in the Supreme Court of the US in the case of Nix vs. Hadden.

 

[Robino1]

That's a problem, no?

Do you think CASAA will ever reach 70'000 members? How long would it take?

Why should anyone join CASAA; why can't we just trust the powers that be that a reasonable decision will be made? Why can't I just vape, and not have to worry that some other lobbyist is going to try to twist things out of the reasonable?

(not knocking CASAA; just trying to make a point)

I used to have that faith in the government. I no longer do. My eyes have been opened since I started vaping and seeing things that don't get reported on the news. I had no clue about what went on back in 2009-2010 with the FDA.

I'm amazed at how the media manipulates and is manipulated. Which is why I'm trying to do what I am here http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...orld-national-vaping-day-what-your-plans.html. A little manipulation in a positive manner.

Shameless plug for my thread.

 

[VV_James]

Concerned?
Of course I'm concerned!

However, I'm enough of a realist to understand that there's not a damned thing we can do about it 1 way or the other...

The corporations that currently own this country and most of the rest of the world will, at some point, instruct all the bureaucrats on what policies to pass and that will be that.

Yeah, I sign all the petitions, and all that... and I convert as many smokers to vapers as I Possibly can (because increasing the profitability of vaping is the only hope we truly have) But even though the FDA and other bureaucracies will sit and politely listen to our facts, reports, research, and arguments...

Ultimately it's going to come down to another case of follow the money, and what's going to benefit our corporate owners the most.

AND when (not if) that comes to pass... We'll deal with it, because that's what we do.

Worse case scenario: We are restricted to selling only 0mg juice, and the internet gets flooded with instructional videos and tutorials on how to extract your own nicotine from tobacco, or patches.

And there's a sudden boom in the DIY market, because nothing they pass is going to take PG/VG/ and artificial flavoring off the market... It simply has too many other wide spread uses...

So my follow-up question is why would you get so stressed out and invest so much emotional real estate into something you have absolutely no control over??

I used to have that faith in the government. I no longer do. My eyes have been opened since I started vaping and seeing things that don't get reported on the news. I had no clue about what went on back in 2009-2010 with the FDA.

I'm amazed at how the media manipulates and is manipulated. Which is why I'm trying to do what I am here http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...orld-national-vaping-day-what-your-plans.html. A little manipulation in a positive manner.

Shameless plug for my thread.

Me.... I'm gonna gather up a bunch of my gear and go out and do my damnedest to convert, or at least intrigue, as many smokers as I can...

 

[Chas_L]

That's a problem, no?

Do you think CASAA will ever reach 70'000 members? How long would it take?

Why should anyone join CASAA; why can't we just trust the powers that be that a reasonable decision will be made? Why can't I just vape, and not have to worry that some other lobbyist is going to try to twist things out of the reasonable?

(not knocking CASAA; just trying to make a point)

SImple answer is the Golden Rule.

The one(s) with the Gold make the Rules.

I just happen to also be a gun nut ,shooter , Endowment member of the NRA and strong supportor of the Second Amendment , I have been for many years.

When the present admenastration started thier push for more Gun Laws membership of the NRA increased over 600,000 in a mater of months and there was a run of guns,amunation,reloading equipment and supplies that still have all of these in backorder.

Yes there is strength in numbers ,BS wlks and money talks.

 

[Coastal Cowboy]

That's a problem, no?

Do you think CASAA will ever reach 70'000 members? How long would it take?

Why should anyone join CASAA; why can't we just trust the powers that be that a reasonable decision will be made? Why can't I just vape, and not have to worry that some other lobbyist is going to try to twist things out of the reasonable?

(not knocking CASAA; just trying to make a point)

I see the point. Considering CASAA was founded in 2009 and has already reached ~7,000 members, and given the current market growth of this industry AND pending regulatory action, it might only be a year or so before that hypothetical 70,000 figure is reached.

The great thing about CASAA is that it's an honest to goodness grassroots organization with absolutely no financial, policy or ownership ties to anyone in the e-cigarette business.

Again, I'd like to point out that lobbying is a protected form of speech under the First Amendment to the US Constitution. There is nothing inherently bad, or evil or conspiratorial with lobbying.

Any citizen with proper identification and security clearance can gain access to the chambers of both houses of Congress, including congressional offices, and wait until the Member or Senator he/she wants to speak with walks through "the lobby."