ecigs front page on foxnews.com

[TribbleTrouble]

Absolutely

When the Chinese discover that their sales suddenly become ZERO, there were be an overnight relabelling, I'm sure. And the "sample" carts will become zero nic, or herbal.

It just needs some time to sort itself out

But getting the nic liquid will be a different story. When that gets regulated,
I see NO way of getting around that one

You can actually extract known amounts of pharmacy grade nic from existing NRT's. I have done it myself with the carts for the Nicotrol Inhailer. We do need to get China on board with the strategy change. If they want to keep selling in America, that is. Otherwise, we have to start thinking about making our own from scratch.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

You can actually extract known amounts of pharmacy grade nic from existing NRT's. I have done it myself with the carts for the Nicotrol Inhailer. We do need to get China on board with the strategy change. If they want to keep selling in America, that is. Otherwise, we have to start thinking about making our own from scratch.

Tribble--why just China--why can the USA Suppliers order the device Starter Kits with zero nicotine cartridges specified in their order--is there some reason why the China manufactures would not comply with exporting them as specified? Alernatively, why can't Suppliers just order the parts and make their own Non-nicotine Starter Kits? Is there some inpediment to doing this that we are not aware of? Sounds like selling NO-Nic Starter Kits is a very viable option and is just not being pursued--Sun

 

[TropicalBob]

Here's the present day, dispassionate reality:

These are not e-cigs to the FDA. They are not personal vaporizers. They are certainly not a herbal device. They are, in the words of the FDA and the knowledgeable Cashmere, "drug delivery devices." That is not a lie. Not a stretch. Go all the way back to the patents. These are devices with a singular purpose: deliver nicotine to an addict. Call it whatever you wish. It won't make any difference to the FDA. They see what it is. They know its reason to exist. And newbies buy these for only one purpose. Getting "cute" to avoid reality won't cut it.

As for the "new drug": Yes, nicotine is found in Big Pharma's NRT products. Those were all tested and got FDA approval for marketing. Nicotine is a chemical in tobacco smoke. Yep, it's a natural part of the smoke, along with 4,000 or so other chemicals. But let's say someone decides to mix Zocor and Chantix for a new healthy pill to get smokers off cigarettes and lower their cholesterol? Well, both are approved drugs. But the combination creates a "new drug" -- and it must be approved by FDA before marketing.

Our nicotine is not pure; that would kill us on first inhalation. It's mixed in a chemical concoction of propylene glycol, alcohol, vegetable glycerine, water and stuff with names only a chemist can pronounce. That liquid -- to be used only in our drug delivery devices -- is by every sane definition a "new drug." Call it "herbal health fluid" if you want. The FDA knows what it is, and its intended use. It is, really, a new drug -- and we're the guinea pigs that no clinical trial is following.

Those are the hard realities of e-smoking today. Devices will be stopped and seized. Liquids will be confiscated at entry points. And the people who made a profit off of us owe us all a monumental attempt to obtain approval for e-smoking. Find out what WILL be approved, and make it. Find out what is going to be stopped at the border, and cease advertising it and trying to sell it. But first, stop the lies! It's not nice to fool Mother FDA. She wields the Big Paddle.

 

[TribbleTrouble]

Tribble--why just China--why can the USA Suppliers order the device Starter Kits with zero nicotine cartridges specified in their order--is there some reason why the China manufactures would not comply with exporting them as specified? Alernatively, why can't Suppliers just order the parts and make their own Non-nicotine Starter Kits? Is there some inpediment to doing this that we are not aware of? Sounds like selling NO-Nic Starter Kits is a very viable option and is just not being pursued--Sun

I wish some suppliers would answer your question, Sun. I would like to know the answer myself.

 

[TribbleTrouble]

Here's the present day, dispassionate reality:

These are not e-cigs to the FDA. They are not personal vaporizers. They are certainly not a herbal device. They are, in the words of the FDA and the knowledgeable Cashmere, "drug delivery devices." That is not a lie. Not a stretch. Go all the way back to the patents. These are devices with a singular purpose: deliver nicotine to an addict. Call it whatever you wish. It won't make any difference to the FDA. They see what it is. They know its reason to exist. And newbies buy these for only one purpose. Getting "cute" to avoid reality won't cut it.

As for the "new drug": Yes, nicotine is found in Big Pharma's NRT products. Those were all tested and got FDA approval for marketing. Nicotine is a chemical in tobacco smoke. Yep, it's a natural part of the smoke, along with 4,000 or so other chemicals. But let's say someone decides to mix Zocor and Chantix for a new healthy pill to get smokers off cigarettes and lower their cholesterol? Well, both are approved drugs. But the combination creates a "new drug" -- and it must be approved by FDA before marketing.

Our nicotine is not pure; that would kill us on first inhalation. It's mixed in a chemical concoction of propylene glycol, alcohol, vegetable glycerine, water and stuff with names only a chemist can pronounce. That liquid -- to be used only in our drug delivery devices -- is by every sane definition a "new drug." Call it "herbal health fluid" if you want. The FDA knows what it is, and its intended use. It is, really, a new drug -- and we're the guinea pigs that no clinical trial is following.

Those are the hard realities of e-smoking today. Devices will be stopped and seized. Liquids will be confiscated at entry points. And the people who made a profit off of us owe us all a monumental attempt to obtain approval for e-smoking. Find out what WILL be approved, and make it. Find out what is going to be stopped at the border, and cease advertising it and trying to sell it. But first, stop the lies! It's not nice to fool Mother FDA. She wields the Big Paddle.

If that were the only view of the situation, Bob, then a black market is the only hope left for us who refuse to give up hope for our Personal Vaporizers. I want to have hope, though, Bob. I actually hope that Big Tobacco gets off their ... and puts out their own Personal Vaporizer! I don't care who makes it, as long as I can still get it (and it works). If I can't get it, I will figure out a way to make my own! Where there is a will, there is always a way.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Good point TB and I see your point--But how about true no-nicotine users like myself--I swiched to the damn Carton's back in the 1970's because they were "suppose to be safer"--turns out the wher not. But Carton only had .1mg of nicotine in them. The FDA says you need to inhale at least 5 mg of nicotine daily to become addicted and they are right--5 mg of nicotine is 50 Carlton's a day or 2.5 packs. I was only doing 1.5 packs so I never even met the minimum level to become adddicted to nicotine. As a matter of fact I get a much better sensation and satisfaction with zero nicotine e-cigs then the Carton's I used !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So there are many of use that are not addicted to the nicotine. Back in the 60's and 70's they marketed white plastic fake cigarettes that you inhaled and got a menthol taste--there was no issue with them with the FDA. So, it does not go to trying to "pull a fast one" on the FDA--as these e-cigs do a great job in mimicking the sensation of smoking. There is a market for these even if no nicotine comes with them. ---Sun

 

[dohsma]

Good point TB and I see your point--But how about true no-nicotine users like myself--I swiched to the damn Carton's back in the 1970's because they were "suppose to be safer"--turns out the wher not. But Carton only had .1mg of nicotine in them. The FDA says you need to inhale at least 5 mg of nicotine daily to become addicted and they are right--5 mg of nicotine is 50 Carlton's a day or 2.5 packs. I was only doing 1.5 packs so I never even met the minimum level to become adddicted to nicotine. As a matter of fact I get a much better sensation and satisfaction with zero nicotine e-cigs then the Carton's I used !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So there are many of use that are not addicted to the nicotine. Back in the 60's and 70's they marketed white plastic fake cigarettes that you inhaled and got a menthol taste--there was no issue with them with the FDA. So, it does not go to trying to "pull a fast one" on the FDA--as these e-cigs do a great job in mimicking the sensation of smoking. There is a market for these even if no nicotine comes with them. ---Sun

I agree. I really think I am more addicted to the act of smoking, then the nicotine. I started mixing my own fluid with no nic and find the sensation to satisfy my need. I haven't had a cigarette since I got my e-cig and I really don't miss it. (granted it's only been a week) So I would tend to agree that there is definitely a market even without the nicotine.

 

[RjG]

T.B., that's not true at all. There is one, and only one, primary purpose for all the existing electric / electronic "herbal vaporizers". You know it, I know it, the FDA knows it.

Sure, some people may fill a plastic bag with vaporized green tea or something, but 98% of them have the alternate, non-advertised ingredient in the chamber.

However, how it is marketed, and presented - nice and clean - makes it 100% legal.

It's actually quite funny. If an e-cig had been primarily developed to smoke illegal alternate substances, it would have been marketed as a herbal vaporizer to begin with, and there wouldn't be the issues we have today trying to replace a LEGAL substance, LOL. It's all quite ridiculous.

It's not getting cute, there are legal, and illegal ways to use 1000's of things.
Just because you can use something to do something illegal with it, doesn't necessarily define the device itself as illegal - especially in the case where there is a valid legal way to use it.

There's no reason in the world you can't fill a m401 P.V. with herbal extract instead of NIC juice, and market it as such... just like all the other herbal vaporizers.

-------

As for the nic liquid itself, sadly, I agree with you. With one exception - I don't believe it has anything whatsoever to do with health, since there aren't clinical trials and banning of a new flavor of imported pipe tobacco etc, which contain the same, if not more nicotine than a bottle of juice weight for weight.
It has to do with big tobacco lobbyists, and TAXES.
Money makes the world go 'round. Some people see part of the heavily taxed smoking "cash cow" leaving the herd, and are applying pressure to rectify it before they lose control of any of that multi-billion dollar cow.

I BET when the smoke clears (heh, sorry for that) , there will be a pack of MARLBORO e-cig carts available at every corner store or gas station, and it will cost the same as a pack of cigs, and will have the same tax on it as a pack of cigs. And the "clinical trials" will be some trivial tobacco company sponsored garbage, probably less informative than the existing Ruyan studies. Because, that is the way it is.

Just my opinion ;-)

 

[TribbleTrouble]

T.B., that's not true at all. There is one, and only one, primary purpose for all the existing electric / electronic "herbal vaporizers". You know it, I know it, the FDA knows it.

Sure, some people may fill a plastic bag with vaporized green tea or something, but 98% of them have the alternate, non-advertised ingredient in the chamber.

However, how it is marketed, and presented - nice and clean - makes it 100% legal.

It's actually quite funny. If an e-cig had been primarily developed to smoke illegal alternate substances, it would have been marketed as a herbal vaporizer to begin with, and there wouldn't be the issues we have today trying to replace a LEGAL substance, LOL. It's all quite ridiculous.

It's not getting cute, there are legal, and illegal ways to use 1000's of things.
Just because you can use something to do something illegal with it, doesn't necessarily define the device itself as illegal - especially in the case where there is a valid legal way to use it.

There's no reason in the world you can't fill a m401 P.V. with herbal extract instead of NIC juice, and market it as such... just like all the other herbal vaporizers.

-------

As for the nic liquid itself, sadly, I agree with you. With one exception - I don't believe it has anything whatsoever to do with health, since there aren't clinical trials and banning of a new flavor of imported pipe tobacco etc, which contain the same, if not more nicotine than a bottle of juice weight for weight.
It has to do with big tobacco lobbyists, and TAXES.
Money makes the world go 'round. Some people see part of the heavily taxed smoking "cash cow" leaving the herd, and are applying pressure to rectify it before they lose control of any of that multi-billion dollar cow.

I BET when the smoke clears (heh, sorry for that) , there will be a pack of MARLBORO e-cig carts available at every corner store or gas station, and it will cost the same as a pack of cigs, and will have the same tax on it as a pack of cigs. And the "clinical trials" will be some trivial tobacco company sponsored garbage, probably less informative than the existing Ruyan studies. Because, that is the way it is.

Just my opinion ;-)

Ding-Dong!!! We have a winner!

I agree with everything you just wrote! You have been added to the "Trust" list.

 

[RjG]

internet flakey - removing a double post...

 

[devonschmoker]

Everything I have heard about the Eclipse from members on this forum has been negative. I've never tried them, myself. I have never even seen them sold anywhere.

I used them for years and loved them. (Now you have heard something good about them.) Now I only use my PVD and now I love it more. Even if they do ban them I will keep on vaping. The only difference is I will just make my own parts and parts for others too. My plan is to just rebuild parts until I can't anymore. Then I will just make a new device. I am crafty like that. As I have said before here... Hope for the best, plan for the worst. -Devon

 

[Lithium1330]

Steve is the first one to take a step in the right direction. I know name changes for businesses is a hard thing to do. He created a brand with "Puresmoker", but I hope he is considering it. Just the fact that he renamed the devices on the website has officially put him in the #1 spot in my book!

There is a manufacturer selling Personal Vaporizers:

You can read more here:

Someone's listening - or way ahead of us

kudos to Steve, that is the right way, wording in legal world means everything we like it or not, everybody can fight the FDA legally, so the wording and promotion of the devices means everything in that fight.

Also Janty with their Jantystick is in the right way concerning to the design.

 

[andreo]

Why does the news always throw kids into the mix when it comes to slanting a story to the negative. Every single story that I've seen involving tobacco, nicotine, cigarettes, or the like. Has some line in it about how kids are going to start using. Even when it comes to taxes for tobacco the reasoning behind it is if they make it more expensive then kids won't want to try it.
And I read this story just when I placed a wholesale order for starter kits and parts. Oh well, at the very least I'll be set for parts for pretty much the rest of my life if I can't sell the e-cigs

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Why does the news always throw kids into the mix when it comes to slanting a story to the negative. Every single story that I've seen involving tobacco, nicotine, cigarettes, or the like. Has some line in it about how kids are going to start using. Even when it comes to taxes for tobacco the reasoning behind it is if they make it more expensive then kids won't want to try it.

Andreo--Saftey and Chidren are the 2 most used reasons to pass or defeat legislation--no matter what it is. Add kids with anything that even hints at a cigarette and it is an uphill battle from there on out--Sun

 

[TribbleTrouble]

I used them for years and loved them. (Now you have heard something good about them.) Now I only use my PVD and now I love it more. Even if they do ban them I will keep on vaping. The only difference is I will just make my own parts and parts for others too. My plan is to just rebuild parts until I can't anymore. Then I will just make a new device. I am crafty like that. As I have said before here... Hope for the best, plan for the worst. -Devon

Right on, Devonschmoker! You are on the "Trust" List. I don't care what the powers-that-be decide to do, I have decided I will do whatever I have to in order to keep my PV. By any means necessary!

 

[TribbleTrouble]

There is a manufacturer selling Personal Vaporizers:

You can read more here:

Someone's listening - or way ahead of us

kudos to Steve, that is the right way, wording in legal world means everything we like it or not, everybody can fight the FDA legally, so the wording and promotion of the devices means everything in that fight.

Also Janty with their Jantystick is in the right way concerning to the design.

A manufacturer that is calling their gear a "Personal Vaporizer"? That is friggin' cool!!! The hope is building in me as I type. Good Pic, Lithium!

 

[katink]

There allready is herbal e-liquid. Without any nicotine in it. I have a bottle of it right in front of me (QS, QuitSmoking - oops bad name)... there are vitamins too, though I'm not sure if those will meet FDA-standard either (betcha that will be met with 'must be false pretences' or something... so better keep it with just enjoyable herb-tastes and nothing more, not claiming ANYthing else then that).

This whole thing is idiotic though of course... and a complete practice of following the manual 'how can I keep my people smoking and unhealthy'...

 

[TribbleTrouble]

There allready is herbal e-liquid. Without any nicotine in it. I have a bottle of it right in front of me (QS, QuitSmoking - oops bad name)... there are vitamins too, though I'm not sure if those will meet FDA-standard either (betcha that will be met with 'must be false pretences' or something... so better keep it with just enjoyable herb-tastes and nothing more, not claiming ANYthing else then that).

This whole thing is idiotic though of course... and a complete practice of following the manual 'how can I keep my people smoking and unhealthy'...

Katink, I wish America was more like Holland. They have the right idea as far as allowing people to have their vices and personal freedom. I mean, if I lived there, I would never be thinking of ideas like "Personal Vaporizer Black Market". I wouldn't need to. I envy your countries open nature.

 

[andreo]

Andreo--Saftey and Chidren are the 2 most used reasons to pass or defeat legislation--no matter what it is. Add kids with anything that even hints at a cigarette and it is an uphill battle from there on out--Sun

Yeah, I know. But you would think someone would stand up and say "what the heck does any of this have to do with children, give us another reason".

 

[TropicalBob]

The major anti-smoking group in the U.S. today is Tobacco-Free Kids.

Expect a name change, because before long they'll be Nicotine-Free Kids. They mean to end nicotine addiction with the present generation. Not one more generation of ...

WHAT'S AN E-CIG? OMG. Protect the kids! It's Demon Nicotine morphed into a new, techy, attractive bling thing.