if the FDA's job isnt to protect our health then what is it? maybe they should cease to exist on the basis of not doing what it in the interest of the taxpayer. we are their boss, we pay their salaries, willingly or unwillingly. they forget that and only remember the SOBs at big tobacco that pad their pockets.
FDA Economic Impact Analysis
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Both progressivism and liberalism are for more state control vs. free market and individualism - by their own words and their history. The Soviet Union was total state control.
Well, on reading this I thought they were originally talking about cigarette sales. The argument is completely facetious; cigarettes are a major sales driver, since many people visit a convenience store or gas station every day to buy a pack of butts (and often grab a snack or coffee, newspaper, or something else). This paragraph assumes that if they don't need cigarettes, they will still make that morning stop, and will also buy more other items (just because the convenience store might have more shelf space). What a bunch of BS! (Particularly since the customer-accessible space where there are tobacco products is absolutely 0. It's all behind the counter (or in the racks above the counter facing the cashier).)
However, looking at this from the perspective of e-ciggs, they're saying "We're fine with the fact that vaping stores will go out of business - it will just mean more spending at the 7-11". What a bunch of <censored> coming out the butts of a bunch of <censored>.
I don't think this is a Random Consequence of that the FDA is Doing. I think it is What the FDA Wants.
Eliminate Small Time B&M and Internet Sales of e-Liquids. Replace them with BT and Corporate Sales.
They paid for the right to keep killing. And those you elected accepted that payment.
I think it's fair to expand that answer a lot further by dropping the word "tax"...
This is right. Whether they simply don't understand the process of going from smoking to vaping, or they do and they are using those 'facts' to distort the whole picture.
A person who either wants to stop smoking or to see what ecigarettes are all about, may buy a cigalike, and get an idea that something like this could be a substitute for smoking. However, they are still using cigarettes because of the fact that a recent study showed. The cigalikes don't get the levels of nicotine in the blood that eGos (and APV's) can. This is much of the 'dual user' fallacy. Now we all know of veteran vapers that still smoke and occasional cigarette, but that is not the picture that is being put out by the FDA/ANTZ idea of 'dual use'.
Then you're going to find some people who use cigalikes and quit smoking entirely - perhaps later they find eGos/APVs they like and go to those.
And you'll find some people who try ecigs of any type, go back to smoking and maybe stay there or return to ecigs, etc. with varied results.
When CDC/ANTZ do surveys, they'll find people in a variety of these stages, so it appears to them as 'substitutes', complementary and not related.
This is very similar to people like Prue Talbot coming on ECF and grabbing "data" from our 'health forums' to say ecigs cause lots of mucus, dry throat, headaches, allergic reactions, neck pain, heart racing, hiccups, and .........
etc. etc. But we know the reason for each of these - lots of mucus is that your lung cilia are now working again - dry throat - needs hydration because PG and VG are desiccants. Headaches and neck pain - you're drawing to hard - clean your coil or get a air controller for your protank. Allergy - try VG. heart racing, hiccups - lower your nic level. And many of these symptoms are similar to other ways of quitting smoking but they only assign it to the 'bad effects of ecigs'.
But most people don't know that (although you have to think Prue does) so when reported without context, it looks terrible. Same way with the 'timeline' of experimentation with cigalikes to eGos and beyond - many dual users until they find what they need. Then it is truly a safer substitute for smoking. But you damn near have to be at least a 6 month participant in an ecig forum to truly understand that.
That's is some of what we're up against. Not just ignorance but an outright falsification of 'incidentals' along the way of going from smoking to vaping.
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I'd add "and control" but if you look at BT as having Stockholm syndrome after the Attorneys General forced agreement, BT knows how gov't can decimate a business yet keep the revenue stream alive. BT will do anything to maintain their businesses. (Actually many of the business people that started and grew that business are long gone, either because they didn't want to play with the gov't or were forced out by stockholders because of that. So what you have now is people who are willing to do anything for the gov't to keep their jobs and positions).
The Gov't/FDA most likely see BT as their best source of maintaining the revenue stream - they already hold them as hostage for any regulation they want to impose, so they are the .... boys of the FDA. Not so with most of the ecig vendors/businesses. They have enough of the entrepreneurial spirit that Gov't types really hate. But the gov't knows well how to kill that spirit - regulation and taxes. Does it every time. And if they go out of business, that means that BT will be their source and that's fine with both of them. They already have that relationship.
I think BT's role as Market Dominator was all but carved in stone when the Supreme Court told the FDA that they had the Legal ability to Regulate e-Cigarettes as a "Tobacco Product".
BT may be the Great Evil in many people's eyes. But to the US Government I think they are Viewed as Constant Source of Tax Revenue.
All the talk about ANTZ and "Bad Science" Studies I don't think effected the course that e-Cigarettes have and will take on the Federal Level. Some of the Propaganda about 2nd Hand Vapor may have an effect on Local Indoor Bans. But I don't think it had any Real Effect on the Direction the FDA was going to go.
E-Cigarettes, or more precisely - e-Liquids, were Never going to be Banned. Nicotine delivery method will Probably change. ie: No more Liquid e-Liquids, Limited Flavors, Reduced mg Levels, etc. But the FDA/Government Never intended to Ban e-Cigarettes. That would be Silly from an Accounting Standpoint.
I believe a lot of what we here in the Media is for the Benefits of the ANTZ. To make it sound like the FDA is more Concerned about "Health" than they are about Ensuring the Right People receive Profits. And that a Constant Tax Stream is maintained.
BT may be the Great Evil in many people's eyes. But to the US Government I think they are Viewed as Constant Source of Tax Revenue.
All the talk about ANTZ and "Bad Science" Studies I don't think effected the course that e-Cigarettes have and will take on the Federal Level. Some of the Propaganda about 2nd Hand Vapor may have an effect on Local Indoor Bans. But I don't think it had any Real Effect on the Direction the FDA was going to go.
E-Cigarettes, or more precisely - e-Liquids, were Never going to be Banned. Nicotine delivery method will Probably change. ie: No more Liquid e-Liquids, Limited Flavors, Reduced mg Levels, etc. But the FDA/Government Never intended to Ban e-Cigarettes. That would be Silly from an Accounting Standpoint.
I believe a lot of what we here in the Media is for the Benefits of the ANTZ. To make it sound like the FDA is more Concerned about "Health" than they are about Ensuring the Right People receive Profits. And that a Constant Tax Stream is maintained.
According to the ANTZ, who invented the science to back their stance against smoking. It's well documented.
Rampant Antismoking Signifies Grave Danger
The Firing Of Dr. James Enstrom: The Dangers of Bucking Fashionable Science | Watchdog Wire - California
The common factor these Centenarians and Supercentenarians all share
And so on.
It's my belief that they are continuing the MSA funding. They can't sue or list the imported eCig for MSA. They've been trying to list it MSA for months now, but there is no just cause. You can bet they are feverishly trying to make a case. Case in point that can and will be misconstrued, exaggerated, fear mongered, and studies performed for the sole purpose of backing up their stories. They've used this type of studies for years. Come up with a far reached conclusion then perform a study to back it. It's nothing new. With the new "findings" about cancer cells combined with the new surge in FDA regs, combined with the new surge in ANTZ (even ash) promoting eCigs... Well, I believe we better round up some cash for some serious studies before they are taxed to death and nobody can afford to help the honest docs out. That's my belief. History has a way of repeating itself...
Oh, and btw, the BT tried many various ways to make their products safer over the years. The ANTZ blocked them, mocked them, ..,
We are off topic. Yet, it is something to keep in mind, on the back burner, as well as something to push ahead with through the distractions of FDA regs time.
Edit: apologies for stumbling thoughts. To summarize: I feel it's pertinent to fund the good docs research while we can.
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While there are instances that, yes, Big Govt/FDA are milking BT, keep in mind that there are also instances where the reverse is true..
I see the interplay between those two -- plus BP -- as a symbiotic ménage à trois.. Exploiting & profiting off the "unwashed masses" for as long and as much as they can...
It's a very sociopathic endeavor..
That's not to say that the FDA, for example, is or has always been pure evil.. I might be a little naive in this, but I think they might have had noble intentions at the start, and have accomplished some arguably positive things for the public along the way.. (Whether or not the free market could have done a better job without them, the argument could be made for either side)
But.. I think somewhere along their history, the FDA has morphed into something unrecognizable that its original founders & backers & staff didn't foresee at the time, thanks to some perverse ideology & practices that became more & more common, brazen & accepted...
This is what we're dealing with today..
And it ain't your grandpa's FDA...
It's "lubrication" for the low information voters. The Gov't was going to do something, it just helps to have some "popular support" or more correctly, the impression there is popular support - the purpose of their lapdog media.
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Actually it is. And grandpa was no saint. But the information needed to convince is not worth the time and this isn't the place.....
Yeah... That is why I never got too Riled Up over the Garbage that people like Glantz have been Spewing. Or the Tripe that came out of UC Riverside. Because I never felt it would have any Real effect on the FDA.
The FDA reports to a Higher Authority than Health or Public Sentiment. They answer to Profits, Taxes and Individuals with Political Aspirations.
We disagree with the role of the ANTZ here. I see in the fda deeming and other docs the same thing we've seen on some of the media reports. Some people don't break the links because they think the piece is positive but among the rather bland support for ecigs, there is the repeating of the ANTZ lines. Part of that is intentional and part is just ignorance of thinking their being 'fair and balanced'. Whereas that one news agency that proclaims that, has more positive articles than negative ones.
I just Don't see the ANTZ having much of a Role in the Ultimate Decisions or Outcomes.
ANTZ will be ANTZ. For Any product there is Always a Group who are Against it. Let them Carry their Signs in Protest. Or fill the Internet with Skewed Reports or Junk Science. It really Doesn't Matter.
Profits, Taxes and Power will Out Trump ANYTHING they or we say.
Sorry to sound so Jaded. But that is just the way I see it.
You probably don't agree with this either, but were it not for the major news media, we wouldn't have Obamacare. But we do. ANTZ are the FDA's media. And the actual media (ABCNBCCBSCNNWASHPONYT) gives more time to ANTZ views than others.
You got that right. I stand by my position that a progressive government is regressive for the population at large. Equal and opposite.
I think you are Wrong. I agree with you Completely.
The Media has become a Tool for Agenda. They don't Report News Anymore. They Make News.
And they do it for Profit. So Anything Goes.
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BTW - As long as I have my Tin Foil Hat on. Who is behind Many of the e-Cigarette ANTZ? Concerned Citizens? Or BT looking to Manipulate the Market?
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