FDA Economic Impact Analysis

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DaveP

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I just Don't see the ANTZ having much of a Role in the Ultimate Decisions or Outcomes.

ANTZ will be ANTZ. For Any product there is Always a Group who are Against it. Let them Carry their Signs in Protest. Or fill the Internet with Skewed Reports or Junk Science. It really Doesn't Matter.

Profits, Taxes and Power will Out Trump ANYTHING they or we say.

Sorry to sound so Jaded. But that is just the way I see it.

You have to wonder why it took this long for the FDA to actually begin their move toward oversight and control. You also have to wonder if we will all own illegal vaping devices afterward. As I see it, current mods will be subject to approval before further marketing. Does that mean cessation of sales or just allowing sales pending approval?

It's probably going to be a different world for a while.
 

zoiDman

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You have to wonder why it took this long for the FDA to actually begin their move toward oversight and control. ...

Because BT wasn't Ready for any Vacuum that an FDA Edict might cause.

What would happen if in 68 Days if the FDA Announced that Bottled e-Liquids are NOW Illegal. Think of what the Mad Rush for Prefilled Blu Cartos and or Disposable RJR e-Cigarettes would be like.

LOL

BTW - Do you think the Political Election Cycles can play any role in the Timing of Major Government Policy Decisions?
 
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Kent C

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---

BTW - As long as I have my Tin Foil Hat on. Who is behind Many of the e-Cigarette ANTZ? Concerned Citizens? Or BT looking to Manipulate the Market?

I don't go that far. Perhaps only a tin foil visor :) Were it not for Big Gov't, there would be no BAnything in industry. Gov'ts create monopolies/cartels not the free market. A business man may attempt to corner a market - and may for a while - but they will never price themselves out of business (see Alcoa) and there is going to be some "idiot" (ie entrepreneur :) that thinks they can do it better or use an alternative good to achieve the same product and start to gain market share. Only gov't (sometimes in cooperation with the big guy) can stop those others from competing. (most recently bidis and so many other instances it would take a book). And while GM can't make you buy a Volt, Gov't could. They haven't so far but they could. It's happened elsewhere.
 

Gato del Jugo

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Because BT wasn't Ready for any Vacuum that an FDA Edict might cause.

I think that's been part of it..

Let the industry grow just enough (they probably waited a little too long for that, since it happened so unexpectedly quick), and let the big players position themselves first..

Then the FDA can throw the 1st pitch of the game...
 

DC2

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I'm thinking of printing out tons of copies of the CASAA analysis (when it comes) to hand out to vape shops so they can hand them out to customers.

And in additional I would give them one copy of a Word document with a link to, and quotes from, this Economic Impact Analysis.
If the vendors read some of the quotes in this thread that ought to get them moving.

Perhaps we can grow the CASAA membership a lot more rapidly with actions like this.

Thoughts?
 

Myrany

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I'm thinking of printing out tons of copies of the CASAA analysis (when it comes) to hand out to vape shops so they can hand them out to customers.

And in additional I would give them one copy of a Word document with a link to, and quotes from, this Economic Impact Analysis.
If the vendors read some of the quotes in this thread that ought to get them moving.

Perhaps we can grow the CASAA membership a lot more rapidly with actions like this.

Thoughts?
Check with local print shops sometimes it is cheaper to print one yourself and take it to a copy shop and run off 100. Depnds on the cost per page on your printer but for us it is usually cheaper to take it to a copy shop
 

Kent C

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I'm thinking of printing out tons of copies of the CASAA analysis (when it comes) to hand out to vape shops so they can hand them out to customers.

And in additional I would give them one copy of a Word document with a link to, and quotes from, this Economic Impact Analysis.
If the vendors read some of the quotes in this thread that ought to get them moving.

Perhaps we can grow the CASAA membership a lot more rapidly with actions like this.

Thoughts?

Vendors should be doing it themselves but you likely have a better idea of what to put in it. And they should appreciate it.
 

zoiDman

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I'm thinking of printing out tons of copies of the CASAA analysis (when it comes) to hand out to vape shops so they can hand them out to customers.

And in additional I would give them one copy of a Word document with a link to, and quotes from, this Economic Impact Analysis.
If the vendors read some of the quotes in this thread that ought to get them moving.

Perhaps we can grow the CASAA membership a lot more rapidly with actions like this.

Thoughts?

If you are going to Print stuff to hand out Locally, I would include your District California Reps contact info. I would also include links to things like this...

Regulations.gov

Although I haven't been able to post a Comment yet.

Another thing you can do is Create some Disposable gmail or yahoo e-Mail account and put it down to contact you for more info.

Then have some Form Reply with a Bunch of Links on it to CASAA, ECF, Drexler Study, Reps, etc.

People like to be able to click on links. And you would be Amazed at how Lazy Most People Are when it comes to Typing in a URL.
 
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MD_Boater

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You have to wonder why it took this long for the FDA to actually begin their move toward oversight and control. You also have to wonder if we will all own illegal vaping devices afterward. As I see it, current mods will be subject to approval before further marketing. Does that mean cessation of sales or just allowing sales pending approval?

It's probably going to be a different world for a while.

DaveP - I'm using your quote as an example only. Other folks have expressed the same opinion, so I am trying to address the overall opinion.

I have a few thoughts on this. I just got out of work, and I don't feel like chasing quotes down to create links. You'll know which ones I am referring to.

No, I do not think that any of our mods will be illegal. The FDA stated that they have no authority under this deeming over non tobacco products. They did state that accessories, components, etc. would be included.

Here is why I think so. Say that Provari for example, starts including a tank or RDA in the package with the unit. Maybe they toss in a bottle of non nicotine "flavor liquid". Then they label the package as a "Flavor Vaporizer", stating in bold print "This product is not intended for use with nicotine products". Or maybe start a line of no nic flavor liquids and say "This product is intended only for use with Proliquid non nicotine flavor juice" on the label. How can the FDA use this ruling to regulate it? Zero nic eLiquid is a real product, with a history of sales. It was not made up at the last minute to avoid the regulations. This is a valid, non tobacco product. Legal until the FDA decides to go after all the food flavoring junkies. And then until they go after the VG junkies... We'll all be dead by them. Provari has built a business out of selling devices, not tobacco products. If they have never sold eLiquid, then they can honestly say that they are not a tobacco products company. Their product works perfectly fine without nicotine, and it is up to the FDA to regulate the supply of that now. If the supply is regulated, then it would be reasonable for Provari to expect its customers to be using their PVs for non tobacco products only unless the FDA wishes otherwise.

All current eliquid flavors by all current vendors will remain legal and outside of this deeming IF they do not add nicotine to it. The FDA so far, has not said boo about banning or stopping the sales of unflavored nicotine containing eLiquids. I assume that this will be available. If the juice vendors design their juices to be mixed with x% of unflavored y mg eLiquid, and stop adding nicotine to the mix. They cannot be stopped under these regs. Legal until the FDA decides to go after all the food flavoring yada yada yada...

Let's not forget the REAL reason that there are regulations. Money, money, and more money. They do not want to kill the golden goose that is vaping. They want most of the eggs. They will leave a few eggs for the vendors, but vaping is now just another activity doing its part to feed the bureaucracy. It is replacing cigarettes for real, and now it is replacing the revenue. This whole bloody thing has nothing to do with health OR tobacco. It is all about setting the field so that states can put a tax structure in place. You WILL be able to vape. You are just going to pay for it now. And pay for it dearly.

Look folks. We are Americans damn it. We have been doing the stuff that they say can't be done forever. The world around us tries to make it more difficult every day and we just say, "bring it on" and then we do it some more. We aren't perfect. But we dang sure are not going to just roll over and take this, or anything else lying down. We'll get our bit pieces and parts together so that we can vape our butts off. It will be more difficult than it was before, but we're going to do it because that is the American way. Prohibition, the war on drugs, and now the war on vaping. The first two were colossal failures, as will be the third. The folks in India and China certainly aren't going to stop making devices or extracting nicotine. It will find its way here, and will be available to anyone who wants it.
 

Katya

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Let's not forget the REAL reason that there are regulations. Money, money, and more money. They do not want to kill the golden goose that is vaping. They want most of the eggs. They will leave a few eggs for the vendors, but vaping is now just another activity doing its part to feed the bureaucracy. It is replacing cigarettes for real, and now it is replacing the revenue. This whole bloody thing has nothing to do with health OR tobacco. It is all about setting the field so that states can put a tax structure in place. You WILL be able to vape. You are just going to pay for it now. And pay for it dearly.

Look folks. We are Americans damn it. We have been doing the stuff that they say can't be done forever.

I agree.

"Greed is good." And greed will save our vaping behinds--eventually. :D
 

DaveP

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MDBoater wrote: DaveP - I'm using your quote as an example only. Other folks have expressed the same opinion, so I am trying to address the overall opinion.

I have a few thoughts on this. I just got out of work, and I don't feel like chasing quotes down to create links. You'll know which ones I am referring to.

No, I do not think that any of our mods will be illegal. The FDA stated that they have no authority under this deeming over non tobacco products. They did state that accessories, components, etc. would be included.

You are right, MD. If there's no nicotine in the kit, then there'd be no reason to require inspection or licensing and vendors shouldn't have to present their products for testing. That would be true unless the FDA decides that the output of a device must be capable of limiting nicotine to a "safe" level. That would require limiting the ranges of resistance and voltage to ensure atomization produces a "safe" range of atomized nicotine. That could also extend to tanks and other atomization products being tested to ensure that they produce nic levels within a range considered to be acceptable. The FDA might not do that initially, but look out when the anti-vaping public begins to realize that those huge clouds outside the mall entrance might contain higher levels of nic than a Blu.

There's nothing I find in the document currently being discussed, but don't you think that the FDA might decide to classify electronic atomization devices by range and labeling them as light, medium, and full as they do cigarettes? There could also be a labeling requirement that states the range of nicotine production by device. I don't put anything past bureaucratic agencies.

I can just see this being a debacle for vendors and manufacturers. Anything they require for the atomization device puts the device on hold until approval is obtained. That usually means a cease and desist order for distribution pending approval. I hope we don't see that. You have to remember that this is only the first step by the FDA to regulate ecigs.

All it will take is for an influential person who's concerned about side stream nicotine to begin saying, "Well, we know how much nicotine is in the ejuice, but how much is actually contained in the vapor produced and exhaled?".

Here's what I'm seeing in the press already that makes me think that the FDA will be called upon to take this action further.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...all-under-fda-review-as-popularity-grows.html

NJOY Chief Executive Officer Craig Weiss praised the proposal and said in a statement it’s “a giant step closer to achieving its corporate mission of obsoleting cigarettes.”

Meanwhile, U.S. Senator Richard Durbin, Democrat of Illinois and a vocal critic of the industry, called the FDA’s proposal a “political compromise.”

“Prohibiting sales to kids but doing nothing to protect children from candy flavored marketing in children’s venues is an awful outcome,” Durbin said in a statement. “Parents across America lost their best ally in protecting their kids from this insidious product.”
 
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DaveP

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Unless the reason to regulate is to destroy the ecig industry and force us all back onto cigarettes for the sake of the corporations. They are the ones who benefit, and it's why they are lobbying for this.

Yep, it's interesting that the FDA didn't find regulation necessary in 2009 when they cracked down and tried to roll ecigs into the pharmaceutical class to protect nic replacement products intended to aid quitting smoking. Now that Big Tobacco is moving into ecigs, they are moving to shape the market.

That's what I see, anyway. That, or they just want to keep the kids off the Bubble Gum juice.
 

zoiDman

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Yep, it's interesting that the FDA didn't find regulation necessary in 2009 when they cracked down and tried to roll ecigs into the pharmaceutical class to protect nic replacement products intended to aid quitting smoking. Now that Big Tobacco is moving into ecigs, they are moving to shape the market.

That's what I see, anyway. That, or they just want to keep the kids off the Bubble Gum juice.

The FDA Didn't have the Legal Authority to Regulate e-Cigarettes in 2009.

Here is a Very Brief Timeline of the FDA...

...

History of the FDA’s Attempt to Regulate E-Cigarettes

In 2008, the FDA moved to establish authority over e-cigarettes as drugs or drug delivery devices by blocking the import of new e-cigarette shipments into the United States. The FDA has authority to regulate “drugs,” “devices,” or drug/device combinations through the Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act.[2]

In 2009, the e-cigarette manufacturer Sottera, which makes NJOY e-cigarettes, sued the FDA. Sottera said the agency didn’t have the authority over e-cigarettes as drugs or drug delivery devices and therefore could not stop shipments from entering the country. The manufacturer asked the federal district court in Washington, D.C., for an injunction (a court order) to prohibit the FDA from continuing to ban incoming e-cigarette shipments.

In January 2010, the district court agreed with the e-cigarette manufacturer and held that the FDA may not regulate e-cigarettes as a drug or drug delivery device. Instead, because the nicotine contained in the e-cigarette cartridges is derived from tobacco, the court held that the FDA may regulate them as a tobacco product.

The FDA appealed the lower court’s ruling to the federal Court of Appeals in Washington, DC. A three-judge panel at the Court of Appeals ruled on December 7, 2010 that the lower court was correct. It held that because the NJOY e-cigarettes are not marketed as tobacco cessation aids (such as nicotine gum or patches), the FDA does not have authority over e-cigarettes as a drug or drug delivery device.

The court’s decision limits the FDA’s ability to test NJOY e-cigarettes for safety and prohibits it from banning e-cigarettes entirely. However, the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act (Tobacco Control Act) expressly allows state and local governments to regulate the sale or use of tobacco products, which would include e-cigarettes.[3]

...

Are E-Cigarettes Regulated by the FDA? | ChangeLab Solutions
 

DaveP

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The FDA Didn't have the Legal Authority to Regulate e-Cigarettes in 2009.

Here is a Very Brief Timeline of the FDA...



Are E-Cigarettes Regulated by the FDA? | ChangeLab Solutions

Yes, as I said they tried to roll them into the pharmaceutical class and failed. That's how they ended up being labeled as tobacco products. We were all worried at the time that we would have to get prescriptions to vape. Then, nic replacement products were converted to over the counter status.

Now, the concern seems to be the possibility of regulation pricing small vendors out of the market through financially crippling costs of compliance. If the FDA succumbs to the "protect the children" cry, we might have to kiss dessert and candy flavors goodbye. No more caramel and vanilla in your RY4?
 
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Kent C

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Our vendors should read this :)

Page 22...

"Although we do not have an estimate of the number of electronic cigarette manufacturers and importers affected by this proposed rule, we similarly expect that rather than bear the cost of compliance, some would cease to offer their products in the U.S. The total costs of complying with the proposed rule would create the potential for exit;"

And contrary to some comments about substantial equivalency - how if one carto is allowed then all follow... here's the FDA's estimate for the number of ecigarettes and UPC's (basically accessories... see note 22 on myvaporstore, pg25):

Table 16 summarizes the number of products affected by this proposed rule, while Table 17 provides cigar product detail by foreign and domestic origin.

Table 16: Number of Products Affected by this Proposed Rule

Electronic Cigarettes2 1,675(Products)_ 1,717(UPC's)

2 If there is no valid predicate tobacco product for e-cigarettes, the number of products or UPCs on the market under the proposed rule would depend on the number of marketing authorizations obtained through premarket tobacco applications.

Depending on the evaluation of 'predicates' to ecigs, those numbers might change but earlier this is what the FDA says about predicates for ecigarettes: (page 20):

"If electronic cigarettes are deemed to be subject to chapter IX of the FD&C Act, the cost of premarket applications would increase the cost of entering and remaining in the market. (It is uncertain whether there are any valid predicates for the electronic cigarette products currently on the market. If no such predicates exist or if they are hard to identify, then all or most electronic cigarettes would require premarket applications in order to remain on the market."

From reading some other posts, where some think components will be exempt, I think this may need some clarifications:

UPC = The Universal Product Code (UPC) is a barcode symbology (i.e., a specific type of barcode) that is widely used in the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand and in other countries for tracking trade items in stores.

Trade items = The term trade item refers to any item (product or service) upon which there is a need to retrieve pre-defined information and that may be priced or ordered or invoiced at any point in any supply chain. It is a term used primarily by people in supply chain management and logistic engineering. In colloquial usage, it refers to any item that is the subject of trade.

From FDA deeming doc:

"Number of Affected Products

a. Number of Products

Many costs of this proposed rule depend on the total number of affected products, measured as the number of unique product formulations or universal product codes (UPCs), depending on the provision. (The number of UPCs exceeds the number of product formulations because the same product can be packaged in multiple ways, with each packaging configuration receiving its own UPC.)"


Here, they're differentiating between "product formulations", for example a cigalike or an ego or mod kit) vs. the "UPC's" - each component of a product or kit, where "each packaging configuration receiving it's own UPC" - so the battery could have it's own UPC, the atomizer/clearo/carto, the drip tip, the replacement coil.

Now from the above: (they estimate the number of full products and the components that may be sold...)

Electronic Cigarettes2 1,675(Products)_ 1,717(UPC's)

2 If there is no valid predicate tobacco product for e-cigarettes, the number of products or UPCs on the market under the proposed rule would depend on the number of marketing authorizations obtained through premarket tobacco applications


Valid predicate tobacco product - this would be a tobacco product that already has FDA approval, such as most regular cigarettes, some cigars and.... no electronic cigarettes. Hence:

"ii. Premarket Tobacco Applications
Among traditional product categories such as cigars and pipe tobacco, the proportion of proposed deemed products that would not be found substantially equivalent to a valid predicate product is uncertain. Therefore, the number of new products requiring premarket tobacco applications within those categories would also be uncertain, though our best forecast is that it would be small. (As of November 2012, no premarket tobacco applications had been submitted to FDA for currently-regulated products.) By contrast, it is uncertain whether there exists a valid predicate for the electronic cigarette products currently on the market. Because all electronic cigarettes are expected to qualify as new products, if no such predicates exist or if they are hard to identify, then all or most electronic cigarettes would require premarket applications in order to remain on the market."


So, they are saying that since some cigars may have a valid predicate, they may not require premarket applications, but "by contrast" ecigarettes probably don't have a valid predicate..... So.... all products AND UPC components "would require premarket applications in order to remain on the market".

(just as an aside, most people know this, but they have stated in the 'Definitions' of the deeming doc, that a 'tobacco product' doesn't have to contain any tobacco to be defined as a 'tobacco product'. They cite accessories, etc. as examples).

It is the premarket applications that would be the concern of small and medium size vendors, since the FDA's own estimated costs would be prohibitive. They point this out in a note:

22 A single online retailer, myvaporstore.com, claims to sell over 1,000 unique products <http://www.myvaporstore.com/aboutus.asp>. FDA analysts counted over 150 unique products among just the top 5 brands.

Therefore, the significance of the statement in their above quote:

"If electronic cigarettes are deemed to be subject to chapter IX of the FD&C Act, the cost of premarket applications would increase the cost of entering and remaining in the market. It is uncertain whether there are any valid predicates for the electronic cigarette products currently on the market. If no such predicates exist or if they are hard to identify, then all or most electronic cigarettes would require premarket applications in order to remain on the market."

and...

"Although we do not have an estimate of the number of electronic cigarette manufacturers and importers affected by this proposed rule, we similarly expect that rather than bear the cost of compliance, some would cease to offer their products in the U.S. The total costs of complying with the proposed rule would create the potential for exit;" (ie. a potential for going out of business).
 
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