Electronic Cigarette Legalities

[illandreth]

Good to see someone here in Canada trying to do something similar to what we see happening with our souther neighbor vapers. I have thought of doing something as well but have no clue where to start lobbying. I work at a local airport and have brought up the subject with the 2 MPs that travel through here on a regular basis but neither were interested in hearing anything about it and just told me to write a letter to Health Canada. One told me that "if we knew then what we know now then a lot of things on the market currently would not be allowed". After hearing that line I figured it was useless to speak to him as he already has his mind set to believe e-cigs are bad and has the quit or die mentality.

 

[props76]

I've just been looking around a bit to get a definition of "dosage unit." I didn't find one from Health Canada but I did find a number of others. They all define it as one dose, and specifically in the case of inhalers as one administration, i.e. one puff.Perhaps this is a

Its not a ..... in their armour its a mountain for you to climb.. The burden will be on you to prove you meet the "dosage unit" standard. However, as you have found out, what the heck does that really mean?

It means they can keep re-defining "dosage unit" to make it a moveing target for you to hit.

Pay the right people, and don't step on the toes of those that already are

 

[props76]

One of Health Canadas concerns, is that the test results from the puff tests performed on the e-cigs gave inconsistent results. I noticed they were careful to point out on one of their cigarette puff tests that "No smoking machine can accurately reproduce people's very complex smoking behaviour. Smokers' behaviour varies from cigarette to cigarette and from person to person. It follows that the reported tar, nicotine and carbon monoxide yields do not reflect the actual amount of tar, nicotine or carbon monoxide one gets from smoking a cigarette."

Its just making you jump through hoops again... We've been down this road with cigarette.

Remeber they used to have a tar and nicotine rating on the pack.. Then a few years back they made them change the ratings to a range, so that tar wasn't 14mg anymore it was 10-22mg.

That e-cigs should be able to provide a constant does per puff, for one is not possible as of yet, and for 2, shouldn't matter for the reasons above.

 

[props76]

I work at a local airport and have brought up the subject with the 2 MPs that travel through here on a regular basis but neither were interested in hearing anything about it .

Ask YOUR MP not a MP. Their whole purpose in life is to collect a big cheque doing noting useful, voting the way their party tells them, and getting re-elected.

As such, you are nothing but a pain to the averge MP. Your MP that needs your vote (and has no idea how many friends you may or may not have) is going to listen a whole lot better....

 

[Monte_Alto]

Hi there illandreth ... I had been keeping a close eye on what was happening with Arnold Schwarzenegger in California and was glad to see that he did take notice of the long list of comments posted to his site which were against Bill 400. Here's his message
http://gov.ca.gov/pdf/press/2009bills/SB400_Corbett_Veto_Message.pdf

I have noticed that the Canadian Senate does listen when enough people make some noise. In an effort to squash Bills C-51 and C-52 a year or so ago, approximately 600 people sent e-mails to every member of the Senate. It did play a large part in the decision not to pass the Bill, unfortunately Bill C-52 has returned in the form of Bill C-6, the Canada Consumer Product Safety Act here in Canada. It carries with it, the potential to crush all smaller businesses if it is passed. The same group has been actively opposing that one now in an effort to achieve the same results. So far ... so good, but it is still steadily moving through the Legislature. Although it doesn't have much of anything to do with the electronic cigarette, it does enforce the notion that there is strength in numbers.

I feel that if there are enough of us willing to make a fuss, perhaps we can make a difference with regards to the outcome, but trying to deal with Health Canada is a waste of time, effort and energy. If you take a quick read through the following case, you'll see what I mean, but the little guy did come out on top in that battle ... EMPowerplus v the FDA. It had some very interesting aspects which could apply to this product and there are a few more I'm checking in to right now as well.

If the electronic cigarette is classified as a "new drug and drug device" they can keep it off the market forever "testing" it. If it is classified as a "tobacco" product, as one of the companies is aiming for ... pending new legislation in the USA, "tobacco products" will be illegal to ship via mail. Canada will no doubt follow suit. Hence the argument to have it classified as a "Natural Health Product" ... nicotine inhalers are already classified as such and since the electronic cigarette is very similar, perhaps it can join it's cousin. If that is accomplished ... it already allows for sales outside of a pharmacy which will guarantee us the convenience of online purchases with no restrictions in shipping.

I've been researching various topics and areas of the law, which may serve a purpose, ie constitutional rights, market monopolization laws, Human rights issues, etc etc. Maybe I'm just stubborn ... but I feel there has to be a solution, it's just a matter of finding it.

 

[illandreth]

Ask YOUR MP not a MP. Their whole purpose in life is to collect a big cheque doing noting useful, voting the way their party tells them, and getting re-elected.

As such, you are nothing but a pain to the averge MP. Your MP that needs your vote (and has no idea how many friends you may or may not have) is going to listen a whole lot better....

I live right on the edge of 2 different ridings. One of the above mentioned IS my MP, the other is for the riding 10 minutes away. The ridings in this area haven't changed parties in decades, honestly I don't think they care what my individual vote would be since it is a very safe riding with them getting MASSIVE majority votes here.

 

[props76]

MASSIVE majority votes here.

Only way to move something as lazy and stupid as a sleeping cow is with a big stick. Sorry to hear circumstances prevent you from carrying one.

 

[props76]

Maybe I'm just stubborn ... but I feel there has to be a solution, it's just a matter of finding it.

Sometimes the best way is to just ignore them. After all, I think we all have and can get the supply we need.

Just like when they raised the cig tax the first time, everyone went around the law buying smuggled smokes. That forced them to change the tax law back.

What are the going to do? Send the police to my house? Give me a $200 fine? Who cares, the product may have saved my life, have your $200 if you really need it that bad.

One a scale of 1 to 10, fighting the goverment head on is 11. Getting what I need to vape is a 1/100.. Call me lazy, but at the end of the day I care more about myself.

 

[Monte_Alto]

Ignoring them may work for awhile ... but only until you can no longer get what you need. I'm looking for more of a long term solution.

 

[props76]

I'm looking for more of a long term solution.

Stock up

 

[illandreth]

Also looking for a long term solution and just letting this slide also grates on my nerves.

How is it that a kid can carry a knife to school based on "religious beliefs" but I cannot use a safer, healthier method to get nicotine than analogs?

HEY!!! There's an idea, someone start up a religion based around e-cigs LOL

 

[Monte_Alto]

Hi there illandreth ... I like the way you think.

props76 ... you better make sure you have a few gallons on hand.

I hadn't got a chance to pop back on last night, my apologies. I do realize that it seems like a daunting task, but as I mentioned earlier, I know there is a way to change the outcome ... it is just a matter of finding the right loophole. There are always a few, usually for the wrong side, but there has to be at least one that will work to our advantage. If you get a chance, please pass this link along and any suggestions (be nice props ) are certainly appreciated.

Of particular interest to me would be any court cases we might be able to apply to this situation, for any viable reason ... would certainly be helpful.

I hope your weekend is off to a good start.

 

[Think Tink]

Hi there illandreth ... I like the way you think.

props76 ... you better make sure you have a few gallons on hand.

I hadn't got a chance to pop back on last night, my apologies. I do realize that it seems like a daunting task, but as I mentioned earlier, I know there is a way to change the outcome ... it is just a matter of finding the right loophole. There are always a few, usually for the wrong side, but there has to be at least one that will work to our advantage. If you get a chance, please pass this link along and any suggestions (be nice props ) are certainly appreciated.

Of particular interest to me would be any court cases we might be able to apply to this situation, for any viable reason ... would certainly be helpful.

I hope your weekend is off to a good start.

I agree that we need to work towards finding a way to make this legal in Canada, I've stocked up and I'm still stocking up but it would be nice if it could just be legally sold here in Canada.

I've been 1 month now off analogs and my husband is over a week without them and he was never going to quit them. I do believe that these are life savers.

I like the idea that we could have them classified as natural health products, if we tried to go the drug route, every product would have to have HC approval, granted it seems a lot easier with them than the FDA.

I did some calculations, my liquid is mixed to around 20mg, I go through 2ml/day so I use 40mg/day.

My analogs were rated between 1.5 and 2.5mg of nic and I smoked a pack a day so between 30 and 50mg of nic/day with an average of 40mg.

2ml a day / 20 (analogs) = 0.1ml / 1 (analog)

So my equivilant dosage (1 smoke) in eliquid is 0.1ml or 2mg of nic.

1ml is approximately 20 drops, so 0.1ml is approximately 2 drops and 2 drops gets me about 10-15 minutes of constantly puffing on my 510.

I don't know if any of this will help when it comes to figuring out dosing, but you got me thinking.

What are the going to do? Send the police to my house? Give me a $200 fine? Who cares, the product may have saved my life, have your $200 if you really need it that bad.

Is that fine for possession or for selling/importing? If it's for possession and personal use I'd be very surprised. Canada like the US has a provision in the Health Canada act that allows for importing of up to a 90 day supply of unapproved drugs, after I heard that the US had that provision, I looked it up on the Health Canada site.

Do you have any links explaining this? It would be nice to know exactly where we are legally with personal use of our e-cigs with nic e-liquid.

 

[props76]

props76 ... you better make sure you have a few gallons on hand.

Of particular interest to me would be any court cases we might be able to apply to this situation, for any viable reason ... would certainly be helpful.

I hope your weekend is off to a good start.

Hey I could by crack with a few hours of effort if I wanted, so e-juice should be easy.

If you want a reference, what you might want to look for is not a court case, but the argument the drug companies used to get their products, most recently the inhaler, expempt from the nicotine restriction. I have no idea how you would find it, but I'm sure its out there somewhere.

 

[props76]

Do you have any links explaining this? It would be nice to know exactly where we are legally with personal use of our e-cigs with nic e-liquid.

Google Food and Drug Act (canada). Choose it from a government site. You will find nicotine in schedual E. The punishment for possesion of these is also somewhere in the act.

 

[Monte_Alto]

National Drug Schedules August 2006
http://www.napra.org/Content_Files/Files/Identifying-NHPs-in-the-NDS-Final-Oct-31.pdf

"The Natural Health Products (NHP) Regulations are a set of relatively new regulations under the Food and Drugs Act that came into force on January 1st, 2004."

"NDS are uniformly accepted throughout most of Canada, and drugs are placed in the respective schedules based on the need for a pharmacist’s involvement in their sale. Under NHP Regulations, products that meet the criteria for licensure as NHPs are assigned a Natural Product Number (NPN) or a Drug Identification Number – Homeopathic Medicine (DIN-HM). In the case of currently marketed products, this number will replace the Drug Identification Number (DIN). The transition to regulation under the NHP Regulations is required by the end of 2009."

"This document provides a background on the issue and addresses the implications of the NAPRA Board’s decision in April 2006 to exclude all NHPs from the NDS."

Summary:
• There were 1640 items listed in the NDS
• 116 items were identified as NHPs
o 11 in Schedule I (e.g. Papaverine)
o 44 in Schedule II (e.g. Acetylcysteine)
o 27 in Schedule III (e.g. Danthron)
o 34 Unscheduled (e.g. Capsaicin)
• 82 items are in Schedule I, II or III and 34 items are Unscheduled
• Of the 116 identified NHPs, 11 are currently approved as NHPs by Health Canada and have been assigned NPNs2:
o Aloe
o Arginine
o Artemisia
o Cascara
o Ephedrine
o Iron
o Magnesium citrate
o Niacin
o Nicotine
o Pseudoephedrine
o Ubiquinone

My understanding in reading through this document is that Nicotine is already classified as an NHP ... and to reduce confusion ... all Nicotine products are to be regulated under the NHP Act by the end of this year.

 

[Monte_Alto]

Hi there Think Tink ... thanks for the info.
And a huge YES .... I believe that they could very well save many many lives. I switched to the electronic cigarette as soon as it arrived and have not looked back.

Personally I really don't care what the Health Canada authorities think about them and although not meant as a quit smoking aid ... that is what they accomplish with most everyone that tries them.

 

[props76]

My understanding in reading through this document is that Nicotine is already classified as an NHP ... and to reduce confusion ... all Nicotine products are to be regulated under the NHP Act by the end of this year.

That reduces confusion like a bucket of gas puts out a fire...

So if nicotine is to be regulated by the NHP Act, what are the regulations on it at that point? Its can't be regulated to say there are no regulation... Is it better or worse?

 

[TheRealRob]

Think Tink.... Do you have a link to the HC Act provision?

Canada like the US has a provision in the Health Canada act that allows for importing of up to a 90 day supply of unapproved drugs, after I heard that the US had that provision, I looked it up on the Health Canada site.

 

[Monte_Alto]

That reduces confusion like a bucket of gas puts out a fire...

So if nicotine is to be regulated by the NHP Act, what are the regulations on it at that point? Its can't be regulated to say there are no regulation... Is it better or worse?

I'm still sorting through regulations, but ... I am of the opinion that for the Vapers it would definitely be best regulated through the NHP Act for the reasons stated earlier ie online purchases, shipping etc, although I don't really know what exactly they are planning to do.

All nicotine products are to be transfer over by the end of this year and by all rights, the electronic cigarette should be classified as an NHP along with all the other products. The problem is that they have isolated them from this grouping.

This is what I have a problem with, they can't shift all other nicotine based products into NHP status and ban one product, the electronic cigarette. I am still looking for answers, as I've not had time to familiarize myself with the NHP regulations yet, but ... I do believe that this is where we are going to find our loophole though.

If anyone else is familiar with the Natural Health Product Regulations, please feel free to jump in any time.