Electronic Cigarettes effect on Cigarette Cravings

[Kable]

So i am wondering whether the reply i am writing right now is a good or bad post. Or whether i should not have read your post above. Or should i disagree or agree with what you have written once i had read it. or should i repeat my previous posts that you're referring to because it makes sense to me. I don't think there would be any point in repeating that post. You chose to disagree so what would be the point. What i will say is that, from my own observations, addicts that use illegal substances receive treatments provided by goverment services and choose not to use them and contine using illegal substances. They actually sell the treatments provided to feed their habit. They reject the help that is provided for more than just the one reason i've mentioned. Why do they do this. It is because they enjoy the buzz they get from the illegal substance, it's like heaven to them. The treatment would have cured them of their addiction completely. But they just make bad choices don't they. Would a computer make a bad choice ?. If it was programmed to. But who on earth would do that. Then you'd have a disfunctional computer that didn't work properly. No longer a cumputer that computes. People make bad choices because their stupid. Computers aren't stupid. So "people are not robots" and they can think for themselves. And most do.

It sounds like your quarrel is more with government programs and people that take advantage of them than addiction. The treatments you are referring to are obviously ineffective if the people aren't getting better.

People who abuse hard drugs aren't always doing so just because they enjoy the buzz, as you put it. I've abused drugs before, and when I did so, it was because I wanted to forget things I saw, things I don't think anyone should ever have to see. Things that made me unable to sleep, unable to think rationally. Go a week and a half without sleep (completely sober) and tell me you won't try almost anything to relax, that you will make "good" decisions.

People make bad decisions because they're stupid? Name one person who has never made a bad decision. I have always scored in the 99.9th percentile on IQ tests, and I have made plenty of bad decisions. If you want to call people derogatory terms because you don't like what they do, that's your business. I can't think of any logical reason to do so, though, and it doesn't make your argument any stronger.

 

[SDOrganicChemist]

That was much nicer than the responses going through my head, so I think I will step away from this line of the post. And have a big vape. And up the nic. I'm feeling the need for much more nic to calm my angry brain.

To the OP... Yes, I have tried almost everything to quit. vaping is the only think that has made me optimistic that I can quit in years. I still smoke on rare occasion. Mostly when I am around others who are smoking. After a year I still can't figure out what makes me do it- purely the habit I guess. I hate the smell, I hate the taste, vaping is so much more satisfying and tastes so much better, but still something draws me back in. Not the addiction, that is completely addressed with the vaping. I am building my determination to give the cigs up completely though, it won't be long. Also though, allowing myself to smoke if I felt the need is one of the things that has made this easier.

Is it 100% safe to inhale the chemicals in our juice? No one knows for sure. It will be years before the long term studies are complete. Is it exponentially safer than inhaling the toxins in cigarettes? Without a doubt.

I understand where you're coming from. I smoked for about 15 years off and on and I still do have maybe 2 - 5 sticks a day. For me it's the ceremonial lighting of an analog and knowing it will last between 7 - 10 minutes before you finish. With vaping there really isn't that feeling of beginning-to-end. However, I'm excited about the Joyetech eRoll. Supposedly, at 90mAh you get a vape that lasts about 10 minutes. That may be the device that gets me off these nasty Newports for good!

 

[SDOrganicChemist]

Wow, I really love the discussion I have sparked here. There are some great points.

Ok let me respond to a few things. First, I would not solely characterize electronic cigarettes as another nicotine delivery device. I say this for 2 reasons. One because it can be used with no nicotine. Two, it is so much more than a nicotine delivery device. It treats not only the nicotine aspect to the addiction but the functional aspect as well. It treats the cravings that come by the sight, smell, taste of cigarettes and unlike nicotine gum or patches can actually cure the entire addiction and get someone to the point where they have no more cravings even if they stop vaping. Because the addiction has been unlearned.

As for the placebo thing, I merely use that term to explain how it can be used in place of real cigarettes to trick the brain into thinking you are still smoking. Is it entirely accurate, no. A true placebo would be a water based only electronic cigarette that somehow miraculously simulated a cigarette so perfectly that you cannot tell the difference and that you do not know you are using but think you are using a real cigarette. So don't get fixated on that term.

Lastly no, nicotine is not the placebo. Nicotine is a drug and is addictive. But no it is not the only reason cigarettes are addictive. There are other chemicals involved. And some have pointed out that nicotine is not the reason cigarettes are so harmful. This is true. Most studies looking at nicotine in isolation show it to be about as harmful as caffeine. Which is not harmless but we can all agree is not as harmful as cigarettes.

I love this discussion. You guys are really making me think

This is thought-provoking. Remember, humans are creatures of HABIT. Everyone has a daily routine consisting of a set pattern of tasks. Logging into ECF is one of my tasks I know that I'm personally not addicted to nicotine but I am addicted to the functional aspect you speak of. The reason why patches, gum and lozenges don't work is because a person is forced to quit the physical tasks cold turkey and why they're told to keep celery and carrot sticks with them. That doesn't work either because no one chews and swallows their cigarettes. Ecigs work because the user still inhales and exhales something that mimics smoke. Having to press a button is the only difference but is easily programmed into their brain because it replaces the act of igniting a flame on a lighter.

There are some parts of your posts I have to contend. As far as ecigs satisfying the taste aspect because it mimics analog cigarettes - it doesn't work that way because as you can see from previous posters, many cannot go back to the taste and smell of cigarettes. Vaping affords the user myriad flavor combinations that cannot be reproduced by analogs.

 

[synthsiggy]

It sounds like your quarrel is more with government programs and people that take advantage of them than addiction. The treatments you are referring to are obviously ineffective if the people aren't getting better.

People who abuse hard drugs aren't always doing so just because they enjoy the buzz, as you put it. I've abused drugs before, and when I did so, it was because I wanted to forget things I saw, things I don't think anyone should ever have to see. Things that made me unable to sleep, unable to think rationally. Go a week and a half without sleep (completely sober) and tell me you won't try almost anything to relax, that you will make "good" decisions.

People make bad decisions because they're stupid? Name one person who has never made a bad decision. I have always scored in the 99.9th percentile on IQ tests, and I have made plenty of bad decisions. If you want to call people derogatory terms because you don't like what they do, that's your business. I can't think of any logical reason to do so, though, and it doesn't make your argument any stronger.

QUOTE=Kable;8076793]It sounds like your quarrel is more with government programs and people that take advantage of them than addiction. The treatments you are referring to are obviously ineffective if the people aren't getting better.

People who abuse hard drugs aren't always doing so just because they enjoy the buzz, as you put it. I've abused drugs before, and when I did so, it was because I wanted to forget things I saw, things I don't think anyone should ever have to see. Things that made me unable to sleep, unable to think rationally. Go a week and a half without sleep (completely sober) and tell me you won't try almost anything to relax, that you will make "good" decisions.

People make bad decisions because they're stupid? Name one person who has never made a bad decision. I have always scored in the 99.9th percentile on IQ tests, and I have made plenty of bad decisions. If you want to call people derogatory terms because you don't like what they do, that's your business. I can't think of any logical reason to do so, though, and it doesn't make your argument any stronger.[/QUOTE]


I am not sure how you dealt with any addiction you may of had. You say yours was like self medicating to help you and whatever problems you have. The group of people i'm referring to are exactly how i have described them in every post on this thread. Selfish, childish, offensive, dangerous, abusive, criminally minded, devious, arrogant, ignorant, complacent, irritating, the list goes. You turn your back they steal your tv and everything else they can carry. These people have no integrity and no self respect at all. The medication i was referring to is a cure for the addiction they have. Their is nothing wrong with the cure. The high they get from drugs is the best thing in the world as far as they are concerned. It's the only thing they care about. Here's just one example of the kind of people i'm talking about. This guy i know he takes to introvenously he's been doing it for so many years he can't find a vein. I'd just like to mention at this point that the reason for intravenous means is for quicker results. So i see him trying to do this thing right. 30 minutes go by still hasn't done it. 45 minutes until he got it in. I sat there and told him that it defeats the point of doing it intravenously when it takes 45 minutes. He didn't understand. He still doesn't. That was about 5 years ago. I know dozens of people just like him. And they all behave the same way. None of them have ever had employment. They all claim sickness benefits based on their symptoms. Claiming sickness benefits for over 20 years and counting. So are you familiar with this kind of behaviour ?. I hope not !. This country rife with people like that. So i have to stick with my opinion about these types of people because that's the experience i have of them. And again any addiction they have is incidental. It's because they are stupid. And just to add the drugs they are addicted to are possibly the most boring thing in the entire world. And spending time with someone like that whilst they are under the influence is also incredibly boring. In fact i cannot think of anything more boring than doing what they do. But they think it's fantastic. it don't make sense.

 

[ziptied]

Ive been using an njoy king gold for about 7 hours, I have to take a hit about every 20-30 minutes to curb the desire for a smoke, but it does work.

 

[SDOrganicChemist]

No. Alright then. So what about this then. Smoking looks cool. People start smoking because they saw someone else doing it and thought it would make them look just as cool. Or in addition. Like that idea people get in their minds about having a nice cold pint of lager in the middle of a swelteringly hot day in the summer. Thing is one pint is the dream !. You can imagine how nice that would be so you'd do it. But it don't end there. You continue or repeat that same activity and end up drinking a dozen pints. But really all you really wanted was to fulfil that one very pleasant experience you imagined in the beginning, and drinking just the one pint would have been enough. Maybe it's the same with cigarettes. Maybe all you really wanted was one, but you continue to light up one after the other because you think it looks cool. So combine these two activities and what are you left with. Well you're left sitting down the pub chain smoking whilst drinking a few pints of lager and watching the footy. It's a lifestyle and everyone is still doing it because they've got nothing else to do or can't think of anything else to do because that's all they've ever done. It's an addiction to a lifestyle. And i don't think any of these people consider any kind of addiction to nicotine. Besides, what are you going to drink with your ..., or what are you going to smoke with your drink ?. Most can't have one without the other. Oh then there's the power of suggestion. Where people are told there is an addictive substance in cigarettes so in turn become addicted, and is this perpetuated by the medical profession ?. If people didn't know so much would they still be consciously addicted ? Or when they here other people say " i just can't seem to kick my smoking habit" then eventually at some point say something similar to someone else. Maybe it's a sociological thing. Maybe people that smoke just want to be part of a bigger group. To go along with the crowd. Maybe it started with peer pressure. Maybe it still is peer pressure. There must be thousands of reasons that encourage people to smoke. All of which are subliminal. So then there's vaping. Do pv's look cool ?. Do you think they look cool ?. Do you think you look cool when using one ?. Do you like exhaling large clouds of vapour and pretending you're a dragon hehe ?. Is it something you do instead of smoking because you thought you looked cool when you smoked ?. Are you part of a global sociological group that use pv's and your social life revolves around it ?. Do you frequent online forums regularly to talk about something you know everyone else there is involved with ?. Does any of this have anything to do with an addiction to nicotine ?. I don't think it does, does it ?. It's a lifestyle that you got tangled up in. And you like it. I just think that one thing leads to another . It's all relative !. A long string of events going way back to when you first started smoking is why you are here now. Nothing to do with any addiction to nicotine. But when it comes down to talking seriously with friends or family about why you do it, then the reason is because you are addicted to nicotine. Well it aint is it, you know it aint. But you can't explain why you say it even though it aint true. I for one aint addicted to nicotine. I gave up smokin for health reasons. But i still smoke. And i use a vapourizer. You want to call it vapin that's up to you. i smoke because i look cool. SMOKING IS COOL AND YOU KNOW IT !.

If you read The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell you'll learn about the reason people smoke. Actually, you'll learn about the type of person that smokes.

 

[synthsiggy]

If you read The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell you'll learn about the reason people smoke. Actually, you'll learn about the type of person that smokes.

Oooooohh it's a book about Human Sociology, i'd love to read that. I have a passion for Human Sociology. I'll make a note about it. I am actually quite excited now and looking forward to it....thank you sdorganicchemist. But are there any sections of that book that you could reference right now pertaining to the reasons people smoke.

 

[Kable]

I am not sure how you dealt with any addiction you may of had. You say yours was like self medicating to help you and whatever problems you have. The group of people i'm referring to are exactly how i have described them in every post on this thread. Selfish, childish, offensive, dangerous, abusive, criminally minded, devious, arrogant, ignorant, complacent, irritating, the list goes. You turn your back they steal your tv and everything else they can carry. These people have no integrity and no self respect at all. The medication i was referring to is a cure for the addiction they have. Their is nothing wrong with the cure. The high they get from drugs is the best thing in the world as far as they are concerned. It's the only thing they care about. Here's just one example of the kind of people i'm talking about. This guy i know he takes to introvenously he's been doing it for so many years he can't find a vein. I'd just like to mention at this point that the reason for intravenous means is for quicker results. So i see him trying to do this thing right. 30 minutes go by still hasn't done it. 45 minutes until he got it in. I sat there and told him that it defeats the point of doing it intravenously when it takes 45 minutes. He didn't understand. He still doesn't. That was about 5 years ago. I know dozens of people just like him. And they all behave the same way. None of them have ever had employment. They all claim sickness benefits based on their symptoms. Claiming sickness benefits for over 20 years and counting. So are you familiar with this kind of behaviour ?. I hope not !. This country rife with people like that. So i have to stick with my opinion about these types of people because that's the experience i have of them. And again any addiction they have is incidental. It's because they are stupid. And just to add the drugs they are addicted to are possibly the most boring thing in the entire world. And spending time with someone like that whilst they are under the influence is also incredibly boring. In fact i cannot think of anything more boring than doing what they do. But they think it's fantastic. it don't make sense.

I obviously don't know the people you do, so I can't speak to their characteristics. Some people abuse systems and programs the same way they abuse drugs. I would contend, though, that the medication they tried is a cure for their addiction (technically, most addictions can't be cured, and even people who are no longer dependent on a substance still have an addiction to it, but I know what you mean). If something doesn't fix a problem, than it is an ineffective solution. Putting these people on programs that simply perpetuate their addiction doesn't help anyone.

I would just suggest that you be careful extrapolating your judgments about these people and applying them to anyone with an addiction.

 

[synthsiggy]

Quote from kable :
I would just suggest that you be careful extrapolating your judgments about these people and applying them to anyone with an addiction.


I can do that !. It would be a good idea for you to watch the british movie directed by danny boyle called "trainspotting" i think it might illustrate the sociological group i am referring to.

 

[Kable]

I can do that !.

I had hoped we would find common ground if we worked at it long enough

 

[john333]

Thank you for taking an interest in e-cigarettes. I no longer have cravings. I never crave my e-cig. I would if I went into nicotine withdrawal. I should explain what I think is happening. Cigarettes deliver nicotine at faster rates than e-cigs. A smoker gets a big shot of nicotine. A vaper gets slower nicotine delivery. When I quit, the cravings would come 3 or 4 times a day. Over 2 months the cravings grew longer until they stopped. Smokers have to satisfy their cravings everyday. Tell a smoker who is about to light up they'll have to wait and I'll show you an aggitated person. A vaper should be more casual about it. I was successful with nicotine lozenges. I used the cherry flavored 4mg tablets. I stopped for a year using lozenges the whole time. The lonzenge would last 15 minutes. It would curb the craving. I started smoking again because of work/stress. I have been smoke free using e-cigs for 14 months. I did have one two week relapse. In comparison - the lozenge did satisfy the craving but only until the next one came along. with e-cigs I no longer have cravings but because i toughed it out. The nice thing about a craving is it only lasts a couple minutes. Of course if you're waiting to smoke, the craving can go on much longer. I'm just glad to be out of the fire storm. Something as a side note - I've seen a dozen people fail their try to quit using the little e-cigs. They dont have much vapor. They dont have enough what we call throat hit. They have short battery life. The prefilled cartomizers are not cheap. Most the people on this forum use Advanced Personal Vaporizers (APV) that last 24 hours with tanks that hold a couple days worth of liquid. The liquid tastes very good. You can adjust the voltage and get all the throat hit you want. You can spend very little money or as much as you want. I know I'm still addicted to nicotine but so happy I'm not smoking.

 

[JazzyTech]

"We are the sum of our experiences" comes to mind. Interesting thread.

 

[DoctorJ]

Will power can factor into it, but it isn't the sole decisive factor. Calling it a lack of will power implies the desire to quit is equal. Most addicts don't want to quit, just as you don't. Do I think you are insulting yourself? Yes, and I don't like seeing someone insult themselves any more than I like seeing them insult someone else. If I may, I'll try to read between the lines you wrote. I think maybe the crux of your argument is that dependence on a substance is something that can be changed (feel free to correct me if this is untrue). This I absolutely agree with. I just think that people need certain resources available to them to help them achieve this, as most aren't able to do it alone.

Your last paragraph I agree with completely. I see this as a healthy debate, which is something I enjoy, and hold no animosity against anyone who has opinions that differ from my own.

You seem to do a lot of "implying". Not saying that's bad or anything "It's interesting because there are hidden surprises. You don't see something at face value and go 'Oh, that's it.' You actually discover, as you become aware of the piece, other elements." -Lee Dorn

You say "I just think that people need certain resources available to them to help them achieve this, as most aren't able to do it alone. " In my original post I said, "Yes there may be physical and mental withdrawal symptoms, but if the addict wants to quit, they can seek the assistance they need, whether it be medical, spiritual, psychological...whatever."

And as far as the term I use, be it "weakness", "will-power", "lack of self control", we could argue semantics all day. But here I am calling a spade, a spade as I see it, once again my opinion of wording. And no, will-power is not the "sole decisive factor", never said it was. Lest we leave out: motivation, reasoning (for quitting), circumstances, and any other environmental or psychological factors. However, you are absolutely correct about the crux of my argument being that dependence on a substance can be changed!

And I too see this as a healthy debate as well! This kind of reminds me of doctoral school and the defense phase of my dissertation

I really don't wanna piss you off either in case you still have that thump gun still laying around somewhere

 

[Kable]

You seems to do a lot of "implying". Not saying that's bad or anything "It's interesting because there are hidden surprises. You don't see something at face value and go 'Oh, that's it.' You actually discover, as you become aware of the piece, other elements." -Lee Dorn

You say "I just think that people need certain resources available to them to help them achieve this, as most aren't able to do it alone. " In my original post I said, "Yes there may be physical and mental withdrawal symptoms, but if the addict wants to quit, they can seek the assistance they need, whether it be medical, spiritual, psychological...whatever."

And as far as the term I use, be it "weakness", "will-power", "lack of self control", we could argue semantics all day. But here I am calling a spade, a spade as I see it, once again my opinion of wording. And no, will-power is not the "sole decisive factor", never said it was. Lest we leave out: motivation, reasoning (for quitting), circumstances, and any other environmental or psychological factors. However, you are absolutely correct about the crux of my argument being that dependence on a substance can be changed!

And I too see this as a healthy debate as well! This kind of reminds me doctoral school and the defense phase of my dissertation
I really don't wanna piss you off either in case you still have that thump gun still laying around somewhere

I know you were joking, but I would never resort to violence over a disagreement. That picture is almost tongue in cheek, because I'm a very peaceful person. And I'm a civilian now, so they don't let me keep toys like that

My issue with your statements are not purely about semantics, although I think words matter, and we should choose them carefully. Most addicts don't want to quit, so all the will power in the world isn't going to help them. They are getting something from the substance they are dependent on that they are not getting elsewhere. I think most addicts are self medicating. They are treating underlying conditions. They are gaining relief from something else that ails them, whether they recognize it or not. Many are suffering from some sort of psychological trauma. Does dependence on a substance fix these issues? No. But I find it hard to fault a person for trying to ease their pain. Would you call someone weak because they take acetaminophen for a headache? I think everybody suffers in life, and I think the ones who suffer more do so usually because they are more sensitive, and their sensitivity makes them prone to damage. Damage which they must then treat to survive. Is being sensitive a weakness? It can be, but it can also be a great strength.

You may choose to think of people with addictions as having some sort of deficiency, but I think this is counterproductive. I would rather question why a problem exists and try to find a solution than pass judgment.

 

[DoctorJ]

I think you have me totally wrong. I don't see addiction as a "deficiency", nor am I passing judgement. My use of the word "weakness" may imply that, but I assure you that is not the case at all having dealt with addiction (other than nicotine) myself. I think you are reading too much into my OP. I understand there are quite a few reasons for addiction and all of the psychological aspects of it. I am not addressing that by any means. The addictions I am mainly addressing are addictive substances, not acetaminophen for a headache. That is a bit of a hyperbole to my OP. I'm addressing truly addictive substances. I understand your point however.

Check your pm's. I think this friendly debate needs to be between us and not on this forum.

 

[Kable]

I think you have me totally wrong. I don't see addiction as a "deficiency", nor am I passing judgement. My use of the word "weakness" may imply that, but I assure you that is not the case at all having dealt with addiction (other than nicotine) myself. I think you are reading too much into my OP. I understand there are quite a few reasons for addiction and all of the psychological aspects of it. I am not addressing that by any means. The addictions I am mainly addressing are addictive substances, not acetaminophen for a headache. That is a bit of a hyperbole to my OP. I'm addressing truly addictive substances. I understand your point however.

Check your pm's. I think this friendly debate needs to be between us and not on this forum.

Agreed. One clarification, first. I didn't mean that taking tylenol was your concern, I meant that I see addicts as people who are simply "taking something for the pain" of daily life. I can see how that could have been taken as hyperbole, though.

 

[unlearnaddiction]

Well I will chime in again. In my opinion I think it is unfair to judge yourself (me included) or anyone else as weak or having a lack of will power because they are addicted to something. I say this because I can think of no one who isn't addicted in some way, to some degree to something. I am a bit overweight and when I eat something I know isn't healthy (I mean I am a doctor for goodness sake) it isn't because I don't know better, it is because of addiction. When someone goes shopping and buys more than they should or that they can afford that is addiction. We all do it to some degree or another. And that is because these behaviors are our brains NORMAL response to the totally unnatural environment we have created. When we become addicted more severely to something like cigarettes, ......, ..........whatever, it is NOT because our brains are malfunctioning, it is because those substances are triggering adaptive, healthy parts of our brain to do exactly what millions of years of evolution have made them to do. To seek out and get more of anything that causes dopamine release. And the more dopamine release it causes the more valuable it must be. And for millions of years of our evolution this worked very well in our favor. It only goes wrong now that we are surrounded by high calorie foods, cigarettes, alcohol, drugs, strip clubs and anything else you can think of that someone tries to sell you that you know is not good for you but people do it anyway "because it feels good".

Do we have control over this? Yes, to a degree. And yes, unlike cancer it is a disease that could have been prevented if you had acted differently and not given into temptation. But, we all do at some point. All of us. And if you do and unfortunately become addicted trying to stop is really as far as your brain is concerned, no different than trying not to eat when you are starving.

 

[patkin]

I don't think you can lump ALL addictions into the same category. I've seen anti-smokers attempt that and its ludicrous. There's a vast difference between (oops started typing the names and remembered the rules here) ... so I'll just say mind-numbing, physically impairing, or prescription substances and caffeine, nicotine or chocolate. Some produce pleasure.. yes... but that's not the same as escapism that seeks oblivion from reality. I think we should be careful tossing the word around. There's enough stigma on smokers heads and, apparently, on the way for vapers. Addict and/or addiction is the new acceptable shaming/bashing word. The gal who buys too many shoes or the guy who owns hundreds of fishing lures may be compulsive and derive pleasure with some dopamine release but let's not lump them in with those who die from over doses.

 

[unlearnaddiction]

I agree, the word addiction is over used and lumping in smoking with hard drug addiction seems completely wrong. The problem is addiction to food and addiction to illegal drugs and everything in between are the same process in the brain just to different degrees. Therefore it is hard to draw a line and say this is addiction and this is not. Your point is correct, it is just a tricky issue. But I would definitely consider cigarettes an addiction. It may not be quite as dramatic as some other addictions but it is extremely powerful and very harmful to the body.

 

[Ikeprof]

By the fourth day, I actually TRIED to have a cigarette as I was experiencing...well some of the other side effects of quitting smoking, such as catastrophic constipation (well ok...maybe not catastrophic..but)...I couldn't stand to smoke even half of an analog and I was a 3 PAD smoker 4 days earlier.

Which..I found really interesting. Why WOULD I experience a side effect like that other than maybe dehydration due to my new habit or there is something in an analog other than the nicotine which would influence a body mechanism so.