Errr..TP with Kanthal..??

[TheBloke]

The smok m80 does temp control with kanthal...watch busardos review. ..it turns out......on fire........

This is my thought exactly. Copying what I said on another thread where this mod was just raised:

I am particularly sceptical because we have seen this before. The smok M80 has a 'temperature control' mode which 'works' with any wire. In fact that just means it doesn't work equally with all wires.

Now I will say that this new mod describes itself in far more complicated and sophisticated terms. It says it tells you when there is no juice. It says it shows a temperature scale. That's far more than the M80 ever claimed to do.

But underneath all that it still sounds rather like the M80. The M80's 'temp control' was actually a pre-programmed wattage curve. You selected, say, 500°F and it would look up a range of wattages to fire. This would mean when you hold fire it might fire 45, 44, 43, 42, 39, etc. That curve would always be the same regardless of the wire used. It couldn't actually detect the live temperature of the coil, it just fired the same wattage curve every time. The result was that it sometimes gave the appearance of temp control - as long as you didn't do any testing which was too extreme, such as a dry burn test.

Anyway, we shall have to see. I certainly wouldn't expect this new mod to fail all Temp Control - I'm sure in this day and age they've at least implemented proper Ni/Ti control. Maybe what they've done is put in normal TC for Ti/Ni and then something similar to the M80 for Kanthal.

Or maybe there really is some way to do it with Kanthal - perhaps resistance detection so accurate and granular it can differentiate resistance changes totalling 0.01 across 200°C of temperature scale

But actually, if it could do that, it would at least require you to tell it what wire it was, surely? How can it know to use the right coefficient for Ni vs Ti vs K? Maybe there's a menu mode to tell it which wire, that we're not seeing in the pictures. But if so, you'd think that selection would be shown on the screen - given how much other info they've crammed on there.

Anyway definitely one to keep a close eye on. Thanks for the heads-up, @TheotherSteveS

 

[TheBloke]

I was looking up some properties of Kanthal for another thread, and came across the Kanthal A1 datasheet which shows the temperature/resistance scale.

It's quite simple:

• 100°C / 212°F = 1.00
• 200°C / 392°F = 1.00
  
• 300°C / 572°F = 1.00
  
• 400°C / 752°F = 1.00
  
• 500°C / 932°F = 1.01
  
• 600°C / 1112°F = 1.02
  
• 700°C / 1292°F = 1.02
  
• 800°C / 1472°F = 1.03

So. Yeah. Not even a 0.01Ω rise in resistance until you get to 932°F.

Make of that what you will in the context of this new mod's claims

 

[TheotherSteveS]

I was looking up some properties of Kanthal for another thread, and came across the Kanthal A1 datasheet which shows the temperature/resistance scale.

It's quite simple:

• 100°C / 212°F = 1.00
• 200°C / 392°F = 1.00
  
• 300°C / 572°F = 1.00
  
• 400°C / 752°F = 1.00
  
• 500°C / 932°F = 1.01
  
• 600°C / 1112°F = 1.02
  
• 700°C / 1292°F = 1.02
  
• 800°C / 1472°F = 1.03

So. Yeah. Not even a 0.01Ω rise in resistance until you get to 932°F.

Make of that what you will in the context of this new mod's claims

it is either a bogus claim - perhaps a SMOK-and-mirrors thing - or they are somehow measuring T directly (unlikely I guess) or inferring it from some other mystical physical process! I guess we will see.

 

[TheBloke]

a SMOK-and-mirrors thing

Superb

 

[Jazzman]

But actually, if it could do that, it would at least require you to tell it what wire it was, surely? How can it know to use the right coefficient for Ni vs Ti vs K? Maybe there's a menu mode to tell it which wire, that we're not seeing in the pictures. But if so, you'd think that selection would be shown on the screen - given how much other info they've crammed on there.

I could easily be wrong, but with this method I don't think it would matter what coil material you are using as long as it could detect a resistance change. Of course it would be much easier to detect the difference in resistance with a material with a high coefficient of temperature resistivity. But if they could accurately detect resistance changes in Kanthal they would be able to regulate that meaning the type of coil material really wouldn't matter. It doesn't seem like they even need to use a coefficient at all. They would just need to be able to regulate to a set resistance and accurately detect any realtime changes, so no coefficient or data table of different materials.

I would think setting the temp level would need to be done under stable firing conditions (set while firing the mod), and I still question whether they will be able to sense Kanthal resistance changes accurately enough to regulate it, but who knows? I could certainly see this working with some materials even if it can't do Kanthal well. Very interesting control theory.

 

[TheBloke]

I could easily be wrong, but with this method I don't think it would matter what coil material you are using as long as it could detect a resistance change. Of course it would be much easier to detect the difference in resistance with a material with a high coefficient of temperature resistivity. But if they could accurately detect resistance changes in Kanthal they would be able to regulate that meaning the type of coil material really wouldn't matter. It doesn't seem like they even need to use a coefficient at all. They would just need to be able to regulate to a set resistance and accurately detect any realtime changes, so no coefficient or data table of different materials.

I would think setting the temp level would need to be done under stable firing conditions (set while firing the mod), and I still question whether they will be able to sense Kanthal resistance changes accurately enough to regulate it, but who knows? I could certainly see this working with some materials even if it can't do Kanthal well. Very interesting control theory.

Sorry I don't quite follow - maybe I've not properly understood what the mod claims to do.

How can they accurately moderate the temperature at a set °C/F value without a coefficient? It does talk about temperature in degrees I thought?

How do you mean "regulate to a set resistance"? - is that referring to the way the mod says you can "record best taste" or something? I didn't quite understand that point - you basically tell it how much to heat the coil to, and then it repeats that each time? I don't get how that's different to configuring a particular temperature - well, except that it's easier because it doesn't need to know the base temperature, only the base resistance. But I don't really see how it would be better.

Could you explain how you understand how they claim the mod works?

In any case I still don't understand how any of this can work with Kanthal, which doesn't show a 0.01 resistance increase until 972°F. They would have to be able to reliably measure resistance to five decimal places, and the slightest fluctuation in resistance from atty/mod/coil changes would blow it out by hundreds of degrees.

 

[Jazzman]

Sorry I don't quite follow - maybe I've not properly understood what the mod claims to do.

How can they accurately moderate the temperature at a set °C/F value without a coefficient? It does talk about temperature in degrees I thought?

How do you mean "regulate to a set resistance"? - is that referring to the way the mod says you can "record best taste" or something? I didn't quite understand that point - you basically tell it how much to heat the coil to, and then it repeats that each time? I don't get how that's different to configuring a particular temperature - well, except that it's easier because it doesn't need to know the base temperature, only the base resistance. But I don't really see how it would be better.

Could you explain how you understand how they claim the mod works?

In any case I still don't understand how any of this can work with Kanthal, which doesn't show a 0.01 resistance increase until 972°F. They would have to be able to reliably measure resistance to five decimal places, and the slightest fluctuation in resistance from atty/mod/coil changes would blow it out by hundreds of degrees.

My understanding (could be wrong) is that you find your preferred vape according to traditional methods of taste, warmth, and vapor production... not by dialing a temperature. Once you find this you set it as the set point and you have the ability to change this from 80% to 110% of this set point. I don't see this the same as current temp limiting devices where you take a resistance reading at room temp and then set temp and wattage, which is set based on initial resistance and calculating basted on a coefficient. It looks like they are just measuring the resistance you initially set when you found a comfortable vape manually (while firing) and they are using deviation from this known point as a control method. Maybe that's why the mod shows a % reading from 80 to 110 and not an actual temp, 100% being the set point.

There is a thread talking about this on another forum with a company rep discussing this (in very strong Chinglish, so it's difficult to understand). But you can ask GraceChen (he/she/it ??) about this device and get a response from the rep.

Looking at the pictures of the screen, it shows just a percentage and not a temp. I take this to mean a percentage from set point so I'm not sure why they have an F indicator next to a percentage when it appears to just be a measurement of deviation from an arbitrary set point.

I have no idea if they can make this work well, but still interesting.

 

[peterforpats]

ijoy asolo just sent me a link to a video showing their asolo mod firing with kanthal wire- to all those doubters i would be wary of dissing it too much. if they can put out a reliable mod using kanthal, ni, and ti thenit will be the real "game changer". that term is used often but this device will merit the use of that term. i am on their pre-order list and will be happy to post everything about it whn i finally receive it.this is the type of development that forces the established players(evolv and yihi to name two) to up their game- and that competition gives us more choices and better products. this is truly the golden age of vaping and we are witness to fantastic new devices every month. now if only my wallet could keep up....

 

[TheBloke]

Hmmm well that's interesting. I would love for it to work of course. I have to say I'm still a bit confused on a couple of things.

Firstly it would have been a more convincing test if he hadn't kept taking his finger off the fire button every 2 - 5 seconds. Not sure why he wouldn't just hold it down. But it's a prototype board so there could be any number of explanations.

Secondly that really looks like an ohms reader in top left (0.513 etc). If it is, he's seeing a 0.51 coil increase to 0.533 after a power hit of 22W. That's a 0.23 increase which means, according to Kanthal, he heated up a damp coil to a few thousand degrees. Kanthal just isn't meant to increase by 0.2 - hell, a 1.0Ω coil isn't meant to increase to even 0.02 until 600°C.

While TC firing it jumps up by 0.1 or so, which is again meant to be thousands of degrees, then drops back and then mostly fluctuates up and down by 0.01 which is meant to be up to over 800°F, far more than it clearly is. It also appears to be cooling incredibly rapidly - when he sets the cotton on fire with a wattage burn, then goes to TC, the resistance is right back at its starting point already.

Maybe that isn't resistance at all. But then what is it? Is there some other metric that could be measured? Thermal expansion? Thermal conductivity? I just googled those and doesn't seem like it's easy or even possible in this kind of setup, but who knows..

Edit: but no that makes no sense at all, the chip has no direct connection to the coil - all it can possibly detect is resistance. It has to be resistance. But then why does it fluctuate so vastly greater than Kanthal ever should?

As I say, I would love for it to work. This doesn't prove much - well, except that seemingly no special atty is required. Although I suppose that can't be 100% ruled out still quite yet, although there's only two wires visible, and that rough RDA doesn't look like it's going to have a temp sensor in it. So more than likely not a special atty, but not 100% yet.

But yes it's definitely one to watch closely.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

This just smells funny to me but maybe it is real! If so how the hell are they doing it..??

 

[Vooper]

The same thing would happen if you just programmed a mode to fire at low power.

The video proves nothing.

 

[MegaVap]

So different wire has it's own setting like the Evic VT, which applies different calculations to achieve TC, maybe they are doing the same with Kanthal? And the resistance read-out is just there for show? guesstimation? IdK, wild guessing here..

 

[TheBloke]

The same thing would happen if you just programmed a mode to fire at low power.

The video proves nothing.

Yes the behaviour of the wire could be anything including a fake TC like M80

But if that figure in the top left is a resistance measurement - and I can't think what else it would be - then that is inexplicable. At least, inexplicable if it's unadulterated Kanthal A1, as the spool suggested.

Maybe it wasn't Kanthal A1 in which case putting that spool in shot would make the whole thing a big fat lie.

Though even then I can't think of what wire would increase resistance from 0.511 to 0.533 when heated to several hundreds of degrees (burning cotton in wattage mode.) TC wire would increase a lot more, even Stainless steel. Kanthal and NiChrome would increase a lot less.

It's all a bit odd. We shall see.

 

[TheotherSteveS]

This has to be a kludge of some description. Something like you define a vape setting empirically and it just copies that. It cannot be sensing temp from R with kanthan so there must be some chicanery at work...either way I bet it isn't at all elegant or even robust. I hope I'm wrong though

 

[TheBloke]

Actually a tell a lie, there is one wire that would work for that resistance pattern. Nichrome 80. Its Temperature Coefficient of Resistance (TCR) is 0.00011

That means a wire reading 0.504Ω at 20°C would, when reading 0.531Ω, be at a temperature of 507°C / 944°F.

Then when in TC mode going from a start of 0.504Ω to hovering between 0.511 - 0.514Ω represents a rise from 20°C to 146°C - 200°C (300°F / 392°F.)

Use of NiChrome 80 with a resistance meter that is accurate to milli-ohms (1/1000) and allows setting a TCR as low as 0.00011 (or has it hardcoded) could explain precisely what we see in that video.

But the accuracy of NiChrome 80 TC with a 1/1000 accurate resistance reading would be no more than to the nearest 100°C, perhaps worse (Dicodes who have 1/1000 accuracy say Stainless Steel is accurate to the nearest 30°C and its TCR is 8 times greater than NiChrome 80)

So to be useful, their resistance meter would need to be 10 times more accurate than any other mod on the market right now - measuring to a fourth decimal place (1/10,000) that is not not shown on the screen.

But in all that, NiChrome is not Kanthal! And they said specifically it's Kanthal A1.

Weird.

(Re the above Ω readings: the first reading seen in the video is 0.514Ω, but this is also the Ω that is maintained throughout the TC vape. However at the start of the TC vape the Ω can be seen dropping momentarily to 0.504Ω. I therefore assume that, assuming the video is even doing any Ω=based TC, that 0.504Ω is the locked based resistance of the coil and 0.514Ω was the last temperature of the wire after the previous fire ended - meaning it shows the live resistance change during TC, like the new SXK mod and unlike Yihi/DNA 40, but unlike SXK it continues showing the last resistance at the end of the vape. Possible, especially on prototype board. A lot of if's, but it could be explained - but again, not for Kanthal A1.)

 

[TheBloke]

This has to be a kludge of some description. Something like you define a vape setting empirically and it just copies that. It cannot be sensing temp from R with kanthan so there must be some chicanery at work...either way I bet it isn't at all elegant or even robust. I hope I'm wrong though

Yes I think kludge/not as good as they're claiming is the most likely. Bearing in mind that this mod, unlike the Innokin, doesn't claim to have a temperature setting as such. It has this weird system where you vape a few times then "choose best taste" and it "repeats" that. That could be a simplification of TC for people who don't want/need to know about 300 versus 450°F. Or it could be a cover for the fact that it's not TC at all, as we understand it.

But that resistance reading still confuses me - assuming it really is a resistance reading and isn't faked. But it really didn't look faked and anyway it would be some effort to go to to fake it, given that it doesn't even prove the use of Kanthal. And nor did it look like it could be anything other than an Ω scale.

Quite interesting actually - if only to speculate on what skull duggery might lurk beneath!

 

[TheotherSteveS]

Yes I think kludge/not as good as they're claiming is the most likely. Bearing in mind that this mod, unlike the Innokin, doesn't claim to have a temperature setting as such. It has this weird system where you vape a few times then "choose best taste" and it "repeats" that. That could be a simplification of TC for people who don't want/need to know about 300 versus 450°F. Or it could be a cover for the fact that it's not TC at all, as we understand it.

But that resistance reading still confuses me - assuming it really is a resistance reading and isn't faked. But it really didn't look faked and anyway it would be some effort to go to to fake it, given that it doesn't even prove the use of Kanthal. And nor did it look like it could be anything other than an Ω scale.

Quite interesting actually - if only to speculate on what skull duggery might lurk beneath!

I guess they may not have actually used kanthan. Any idea if Ti or Ni would have given those numbers. Difficult to say I suppose without a bit more info!!

 

[TheBloke]

I guess they may not have actually used kanthan. Any idea if Ti or Ni would have given those numbers. Difficult to say I suppose without a bit more info!!

Did you see my NiChrome post above? I edited it about a dozen times so might need to refresh this page

Only wire I have heard of that could match those figures is NiCr 80. all others are either too high TCR (Stainless Steel, Titanium, Resistherm, Ni200 of course) or too low (Kanthal A1)

There are other kinds of Kanthal, maybe one that matches - but not Nifethal (that's more like resistherm) and the others I've seen tend not to go as high temps. Then again there are hundreds of them.

anyway they did definitely say Kanthal A1, not even just Kanthal

 

[DejayRezme]

Just so I have proof later I'm calling it now:

This is fake / BS / they don't know what they are doing

TC with kanthal seems practically impossible. TCR of nearly zero. What are they measuring? Or maybe it's like chinese medicine and they are measuring the energy vibrations between elemental fire, elemental earth and elemental air? And anyway all we really need is a wire that works just like Kanthal but with TC. Maybe NiFe30.

 

[TheBloke]

I put a message on the YT video asking them if they promised the wire was Kanthal, and specifically asking if it wasn't NiCr80 instead. No reply as yet

the thing is if it is NiCr 80, and they have the accuracy to make it usable, that's actually an amazing achievement. But they will spoil it for a lot of people if they've put in any kind of trickery to fake out Kanthal - the Smok M80 is a good example: a pretty reasonable, low price, dual internal battery 80W mod with low resistance firing. But to most people it's thought of as crap because the TC is not TC. Had they left FakeTC out completely, or called it "Wattage Curve" so people understood it would burn cotton but still give a modified vaping experience, the overall thoughts on the mod would be different.

Anyway you may be right DejayRezme. But I am not yet willing to call it total BS / fakery. That resistance reading still intrigues me. If it is NiCr 80 then they have definitely achieved something noteworthy, even if it's not (and never can be) Kanthal A1 (without special atty).