Evolv patented "wattage" in ecigs, what does that mean for other USA companies like ProVape?

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Phone Guy

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I read somewhere that evolv patented the whole wattage thing in ecigs... I'm not 100% certain what that means per se..

Does that affect other USA companies building and selling a wattage ecig? Like the new provari p3?

I'm sure it won't affect Chinese made devices like the eVic supreme, but ProVape is a USA company too.
 

Rossum

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Does that affect other USA companies building and selling a wattage ecig? Like the new provari p3?
Depends who's willing to spend how much on lawyers.

I'm sure it won't affect Chinese made devices like the eVic supreme
If they wanna sell 'em in the US it does.

I suspect it Innokin decided it was easier/cheaper to partner with Evolv than to fight 'em in court or pay royalties.
 

dr g

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Most likely it means a licensing fee, same for US sellers of Chinese VW gear, but definitely for US manufacturers.

Oh and it should eventually mean the end of clone DNA boards.

BTW OP, not sure if it was on purpose or not, but your use of the term "wattage" is incorrect, it's variable wattage/power. It refers to a fairly specific control scheme for power in ecigarettes.
 
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Bad Ninja

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I don't think you guys understand how that works.
You can't cover all variable wattage asjustment on ecigs with a blanket patent.
General Motors owns patents for its V8s. So does Ford and Chrysler.
You can still make a V8, just not the exact same one as Chevy.


The patent covers their specific chip and it's delivery method.
It could prevent DNA clones, but not all VW Vaporizers.
 

dr g

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I don't think you guys understand how that works.
You can't cover all variable wattage asjustment on ecigs with a blanket patent.
General Motors owns patents for its V8s. So does Ford and Chrysler.
You can still make a V8, just not the exact same one as Chevy.


The patent covers their specific chip and it's delivery method.
It could prevent DNA clones, but not all VW Vaporizers.

Incorrect. Cuddle up with this read: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...on/597664-evolv-patents-variable-wattage.html

In summary: They did not patent the concept of VW per se, they patented the method for doing it in an ecigarette.
 
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six

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Incorrect. [...]

Well.... You might want to ask Buzzkill about how this goes. His e-cig VV patent directly evolved (no pun intended) from his conversation right here on ECF with ScotBee about variable voltage, wattage, and rating e-cigs and e-cig technology in terms of power. Did his now more than 3 year old VV patent put an end to anyone making VV e-cigs (or VW--- same exact thing, but I digress...)? Nope. Did it make him rich on royalties for the sales of variable voltage e-cigs not made by him? Nope. Did it change even one thing about how anyone goes about making or selling VV e-cigs? Nope. Sure didn't... heck, it didn't even stop the US patent office from issuing more than a dozen nearly identical patents since then.

The only thing anyone with such a patent might hope for is if indeed regulation occurs that ends up placing the entire industry in big tobacco or big pharmas hands and then because of their deep pockets, they have to pay whomever owns such patents if they choose to use the exact same methods. Anything other than that is just a game of whack-a-mole and the only people who get paid are the lawyers.
 
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Rickajho

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Bad Ninja

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What do you mean "incorrect"?
I'm exactly correct.
I have 2 utility patents. I know how they work.

FYI: A patent does not guarantee ownership.
It sets a court precedent. That's it.
Ask your attorney if you think I'm incorrect.

Evolv's patent could end DNA clones in the USA.
It will not "own" the ability to regulate wattage in ecigs.
That's just not how patents work.
 

dr g

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Well.... You might want to ask Buzzkill about how this goes. His e-cig VV patent directly evolved (no pun intended) from his conversation right here on ECF with ScotBee about variable voltage, wattage, and rating e-cigs and e-cig technology in terms of power. Did his now more than 3 year old VV patent put an end to anyone making VV e-cigs (or VW--- same exact thing, but I digress...)? Nope. Did it make him rich on royalties for the sales of variable voltage e-cigs not made by him? Nope. Did it change even one thing about how anyone goes about making or selling VV e-cigs? Nope. Sure didn't... heck, it didn't even stop the US patent office from issuing more than a dozen nearly identical patents since then.

The only thing anyone with such a patent might hope for is if indeed regulation occurs that ends up placing the entire industry in big tobacco or big pharmas hands and then because of their deep pockets, they have to pay whomever owns such patents. Anything other than that is just a game of whack-a-mole and the only people who get paid are the lawyers.

The VV patent issued this year. It's up to the holder to enforce his patent and if his public statements are to be believed, that is coming. The existence of infringement proves nothing about a patent other than the lack of enforcement to that date. Having the issued patent opens a lot of doors as far as patent attorneys willing to work on contingency, getting a judgment or settlement could open the floodgates.

The problem with the VV patent is that it may be hard to defend as obvious and common. VV is a very common control scheme among consumer devices.

Not incorrect. They have a patent for a circuit design - period. Make the exact same circuit and you can get sued but that's it. You don't get patents on "cool ideas" or "general concepts."

You may have missed the edit:

In summary: They did not patent the concept of VW per se, they patented the method for doing it in an ecigarette.

You can get sued all right ... for infringing the patent. What do you think patents are?

What do you mean "incorrect"?
I'm exactly correct.
I have 2 utility patents. I know how they work.

FYI: A patent does not guarantee ownership.
It sets a court precedent. That's it.
Ask your attorney if you think I'm incorrect.

Evolv's patent could end DNA clones in the USA.
It will not "own" the ability to regulate wattage in ecigs.
That's just not how patents work.

Read the patent. It's a patent on the method, not the concept. You can't patent a concept.
You may be confused by what I'm saying. You can in fact patent the only way to do something, and that's what Evolv did.
 
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six

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The VV patent issued this year. It's up to the holder to enforce his patent and if his public statements are to be believed, that is coming. .

Yes. Application was April 2011 - Issue was a couple of months ago. - As to Mike's public statements... that guy gets taken out of context and partially quoted on this that and the other forum quite regularly and has since the day he applied for his patent because a whole lot of people thought the sky was falling or something. I still suggest you simply ask him how this goes. - He will reply on vapers... he probably won't on ecf - and he actually answers the phone himself sometimes for either business line (the fibre polisher or the e-cig) and can be pretty chatty on this topic as it applies to either business (the fibre polisher or the e-cig because he has patents for both).
 

dr g

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Yes. Application was April 2011 - Issue was a couple of months ago. - As to Mike's public statements... that guy gets taken out of context and partially quoted on this that and the other forum quite regularly and has since the day he applied for his patent because a whole lot of people thought the sky was falling or something. I still suggest you simply ask him how this goes. - He will reply on vapers... he probably won't on ecf - and he actually answers the phone himself sometimes for either business line (the fibre polisher or the e-cig) and can be pretty chatty on this topic as it applies to either business (the fibre polisher or the e-cig because he has patents for both).

One patentholder's anecdotes aren't probative of anything. The patents themselves have different strengths, defensibility, etc. and the ability of each holder to finance action is likely different. There is even some dispute as to whether VV was the holder's innovation, there is no such dispute with VW.
 

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This move frankly makes me loose a lot of respect for Evolv, I totally support them protecting their specific design, but controlling the whole concept of variable wattage seems downright greedy to me. It's power regulation; it's been around for awhile before ecigs came on the market. Putting a little spin on it and then calling it your own may be legal (we'll see) but it makes me lose support for them as a company. And here I was considering a dna30 device in my future, maybe I'll have to get a semovar instead, speaking of which what are the time tables on when the nivel chip came out vs the darwin?
 

six

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It's power regulation; it's been around for awhile before ecigs came on the market.

Even if it can be applied strictly to e-cigs.... And where I earlier digressed... I just can't help myself: VV and VW are the exact same thing. Exactly the same - there is no difference. Unless someone can take us to zero Kelvin and devise a way for us to survive while we vape there, there is absolutely no way to defy the math. VV and VW are the exact same thing.

P=E_squared/R. --> If someone wants to go the other way to calculate volts necessary instead of watts produced and say E = the square root of (P X R), that's fine with me... but there is no pretending they are different... at least not at any temperature that will sustain life at any location on planet earth. They are the same.

I like Mike. Brandon seems like decent folk. I'd probably like the 14 year old Chinese slave girl who solders together two thousand Vamos per week... Any of those folks have an equal chance of continuing to do exactly what they do and each of those folks has an equal chance to be unable to affect much change in what others do. The sky isn't falling and the likelihood anyone gets seriously paid all waits until regulations take away from the little guy and give to the behemoth no matter if behemoth is BT or BP and behemoth has to pay a little guy and also gets stuck like Apple did having to cough up for the 14 year old Chinese slave girl who gets abused in the factories they'll lease to make whatever e-cig they decide they can make money on.
 

Phone Guy

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I kind of agree and disagree.... I have not lost any respect for evolv, quite the opposite... I have gained tons of respect for them. While the concept of variable wattage may have been around before ecigs, in car audio or home audio amplifiers as an example, the theory is similar but the end action and results are different.

To my knowledge evolv were the first to conceptualize VW in an ecig product, that does give them the exclusive rights to the patent they deserve. They came to market with it first to my knowledge, and have a reliable trusted brand to protect... this doesnt make them greedy it makes them smart. especially in this field, where clones, copies and counterfeits are the norm and not only normal but expected and anticipated. As a hypothetical example: Why buy the authentic Kayfun 4 when it hits for $99 when the chinese version will be the same for $20

I just read on Five Pawns facebook page about their new juice offering that will drop in Dec 2014 I think, they flat out say it in the facebook post, they dont want to hint at its flavor list or profiles because of fear of being copied, replicated or duplicated before official release. (shame too but whatchagondo)

I own 9 or 10 dna devices in my family... I feel they are the top of the heap, king of the hill in terms of VW...I feel they do it better than the others, and so I support them and their actions. My opinion, yours may vary. No problem ;)

My question was because I am personally not familiar with patents, laws, etc... since a usa company has its patent on a technology of vw regulation in a ecig, how can provape (yeah I was singling out provape) release a vw ecig in the us market? The short answer which seems clear to me, they may charge a royalty fee to provape, joytech, svoemesto, taifun eye, dicodes, nivel, and whoever else
i think the end goal isn't to limit the use of vw by its competition, so much as to remove the counterfeit dna30 clone boards and maybe most importantly the screen and its layout which has become iconic to evolv and the dna## brand. I may be wrong?

On a slightly different note: I have had the chance to play with a couple dna30 clone devices, and I understand why evolv wants them gone.... they only look like the authentic, the function is terrible. inaccurate... always to the high side, very unflattering clone. and like many of you, local B&M shops are selling clones as authentics, then the unsuspecting consumer buys and uses this new dna30 box with or without logos, and its a piece of garbage and decide evolv dna30's are junk......possibly without ever knowing they got duped into buying a clone and never actually used the better real deal evolv dna30.

Are they greedy? no no.... they are doing whats in their best interest to protect the name and quality of their product... I feel any of us would want the same thing.
 

dr g

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This move frankly makes me loose a lot of respect for Evolv, I totally support them protecting their specific design, but controlling the whole concept of variable wattage seems downright greedy to me. It's power regulation; it's been around for awhile before ecigs came on the market. Putting a little spin on it and then calling it your own may be legal (we'll see) but it makes me lose support for them as a company. And here I was considering a dna30 device in my future, maybe I'll have to get a semovar instead, speaking of which what are the time tables on when the nivel chip came out vs the darwin?

Why would you lose respect for Evolv for patenting their invention when they invented it in 2011? Patents don't just protect your specific product, that's kind of the point. People aren't free to copy your original work and profit off of it.

Variable wattage as covered by this patent actually has rarely been used outside of the ecigarette realm. There's just few other needs for it.

Even if it can be applied strictly to e-cigs.... And where I earlier digressed... I just can't help myself: VV and VW are the exact same thing. Exactly the same - there is no difference. Unless someone can take us to zero Kelvin and devise a way for us to survive while we vape there, there is absolutely no way to defy the math. VV and VW are the exact same thing.

Here's where actually reading and understanding the patent helps. VV and VW are absolutely not the same thing. VV means arbitrarily varying the output voltage of a regulator or converter, which is actually a function of the regulator/converter itself. VW means automatically adjusting the regulator to meet a set wattage, based on one or more real-world sensor readings. This is not a function of the regulator itself, it has to be implemented with a logical control unit.

I kind of agree and disagree.... I have not lost any respect for evolv, quite the opposite... I have gained tons of respect for them. While the concept of variable wattage may have been around before ecigs, in car audio or home audio amplifiers as an example, the theory is similar but the end action and results are different.

Got a link to a VW amp? It's been a while since I've been into audio but I am not aware of any amplifiers that do real VW.
EDIT: I found the "constant power" amps by Fosgate ... http://www.google.com/patents/US7994857
While it is a similar concept in terms of responding to a changeable load, the method is completely different as the function of an amplifier is very different from an ecigarette power supply. The usage for ecigarettes is discrete and novel; this of course being the point of patents.
 
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rondasherrill

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Why would you lose respect for Evolv for patenting their invention when they invented it in 2011? Patents don't just protect your specific product, that's kind of the point. People aren't free to copy your original work and profit off of it.

Variable wattage as covered by this patent actually has rarely been used outside of the ecigarette realm.



Here's where actually reading and understanding the patent helps. VV and VW are absolutely not the same thing. VV means arbitrarily varying the output voltage of a regulator or converter, which is actually a function of the regulator/converter itself. VW means automatically adjusting the regulator to meet a set wattage, based on one or more real-world sensor readings. This is not a function of the regulator itself, it has to be implemented with a logical control unit.



Got a link to a VW amp? It's been a while since I've been into audio but I am not aware of any amplifiers that do real VW.
EDIT: I found the "constant power" amps by Fosgate ... Patent US7994857 - Dynamic constant power amplifier - Google Patents
While it is a similar concept in terms of responding to a changeable load, the method is completely different as the function of an amplifier is very different from an ecigarette power supply. The usage for ecigarettes is discrete and novel.

Between that patent and evolv's, I think the two methods of handling variable wattage are covered... That one seems to cover a method of varying power based on sensing current changes. Evolvs patent covers a method of varying power based on sensing resistance changes.
 

dr g

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Between that patent and evolv's, I think the two methods of handling variable wattage are covered... That one seems to cover a method of varying power based on sensing current changes. Evolvs patent covers a method of varying power based on sensing resistance changes.

Actually no, evolv's does not specify resistance and evolv's own chips sense current. The two patents don't affect each other, very different applications and methods. The fosgate device responds by varying signal, as far as i can tell.
 

rondasherrill

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Actually no, evolv's does not specify resistance and evolv's own chips sense current. The two patents don't affect each other, very different applications and methods. The fosgate device responds by varying signal, as far as i can tell.

Just went back over and re-read the patent... You are right they don't specify resistance. The whole thing is worded very vaguely. I have thoughts about that, but more power to them. I've been around here long enough to know that the patent is almost definitely just to keep PITA cloners off his lawn.
 
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