Let's please discuss the mod failure incidents and ECF's position on it, here in this thread.
You are welcome to post any viewpoint you like, but please try to take a calm and reasoned approach. There are many different camps on this and the single common factor is that they all disagree strenuously. Let's try and give the mods a night off for a change...
OK you've seen my announcement post on this topic - here's the background, from my point of view.
The main reason we had to take some sort of action on this is quite simple: legal liability. The second is a duty to members.
Legal liability
I've been told that one or two of these incidents might result in a very large damages case; and that if it doesn't happen this time round, one day it will. Of course, I'm not an attorney, so I just listen to what I'm told. There is a possibility that due to some combination of circumstances, ECF might be seen as jointly liable by somebody somewhere.
This may be something of a leap, but unless two or three attorneys come to me and say that it is a FACT that THERE IS NO WAY that ECF can ever be held liable in any way, then we should consider the worst case scenario. That is simple prudence.
Because, if we accept a supplier (and perhaps especially a modder) as a Registered Supplier, and if we then promote them and term them an Approved Supplier, and if we afford them additional extended facilities here such as allowing them to maintain a forum here and sell their products, and if we allow them to advertise those products widely here, and if we are seen to fully approve those products - then just possibly there might be seen to be some sort of commercial connection between the two of us.
If you are an attorney and can state with absolute certainty that ECF can never be seen as a commercial partner with that modder or supplier, that's good. We welcome your input. If however you are not legally qualified, then let's face it - your opinion on this particular aspect of the issue is not of outstanding merit. It's always worth hearing but has no basis in fact.
Our duty to members
I have heard it said that ECF is a discussion forum and nothing more, and should withdraw from any form of advice giving. This is utter tosh. ECF is (a) a giant online community, (b) the largest source of ecigarette information and advice in the world, and (c) the global voice of e-smoking.
The single largest duty we probably have is to make information and advice available to members and visitors. It's up to them whether they want to follow it or not, we simply provide the information to make an informed choice.
What the modders say
What the modders say is quite interesting - the only common factor is that they all disagree with each other, shall we say 'strenuously'. I'd be interested to see two modders with the same opinion on any of these various issues - that would actually be some sort of progress.
The fact is that we don't know for sure what causes these fires and explosions - but every modder tells a different story. That should point out to you the real problem: they can't agree, they can't work together and they can't decide what is right or wrong.
This why we have been drawn into it.
What causes fires or explosions
You want to know what the cause is or the causes are? So would I. But if I asked three modders, I would get three different answers. Every modder's product is perfect, and better than the opposition's, and has no faults.
For sure.
Here's an example: one repected modder says that atomizers normally fail to open circuit, and therefore are unlikely to be the cause of incidents. Another says atties sometimes fail to a short-circuit in his experience. Another says that over-volting an atomizer by 75% is a bad idea (but they are over-volted by over 100% in some situations). So the modders don't agree on this issue - which is just one of many.
Are mods dangerous?
Yes and no. If built correctly and used correctly, no. But there are some big areas for user error: storing one with no kill switch in your purse or pocket; fitting unprotected batteries; using a poor-quality charger maybe. And if you combine this with a mod that wasn't built to a basic safety standard, then you are potentially in the danger area.
Is it OK to rely on safe user practice?
Well, now we are definitely into big debate territory. A gun is safe but as soon as you give it to a user, it's not, because of the massive potential for misuse.
With a mod, you can shout all you like about how they should be transported with the atomizer off or the batteries out, but that won't make people do it. I guess two out of three or maybe even more will occasionally put that mod in their pocket or purse with the attie on and the batts in. It's just the way it is.
You can scream at them about how they should buy the best batteries they can get - but some won't. They'll get the cheapest deal they can, or get fooled by the advertising and buy rubbish.
There is only one safe way to sell a product with inherent safety issues - make it as foolproof as possible, because people are fallible.
How far you want to go down that track is up to you. As far as ECF is concerned - only just as far as will remove our liability and that satisfies our duty to inform. It's not our job to tell people what to do but if we are forced to, we have to.
Cost of safety features
Firstly, the cost of safety features is not an issue because without them the product is not merchantable.
Secondly, the cost is very low in any case:
- a kill switch: a few bucks plus time to install.
- correctly-rated on/off switch: if the mod doesn't have this, surely it should not be sold at all?
- vent holes: drilling a couple of 2mm holes is not costly.
- protected batteries: mods should either be sold with proper batteries or empty. It's a few bucks more, but are you really saying that it's OK to sell the product with cheap, unprotected batteries?
Expensive electronics
There aren't any. They are all in the batteries, which is the whole point. Proper batteries contain an electronics package that controls various aspects of performance and service - which is why only protected batteries are used.
Are mods with safety features completely safe?
No, not really. It's more safe - like a car with seatbelts and airbags. Safety features can't protect you against deliberate misuse or unusual events.
A layered safety policy is much better than nothing, though. If layer 1 fails, maybe layer 2 will save the day.
What next?
Contrary to popular opinion, ECF doesn't want to do anything. We certainly don't want to be in the position of either telling people what they can or can't use, or even of telling suppliers what they can or can't advertise here. We just don't want that.
What we need to do is make sure we don't get sued, and that people can make an informed choice on what to buy. Simple as that.
How we get to there is the question. It could simply be that we need to publish what we consider - at this moment in time - to be a reasonable safety spec; and to place warnings here and there to advise people what to look out for.
It that's all it needs then that's exactly what we'll do. Going any further than that will be a painful and difficult move. The debate is on now, to see what people think and where they stand on this. Let's see what turns up.
.
You are welcome to post any viewpoint you like, but please try to take a calm and reasoned approach. There are many different camps on this and the single common factor is that they all disagree strenuously. Let's try and give the mods a night off for a change...
OK you've seen my announcement post on this topic - here's the background, from my point of view.
The main reason we had to take some sort of action on this is quite simple: legal liability. The second is a duty to members.
Legal liability
I've been told that one or two of these incidents might result in a very large damages case; and that if it doesn't happen this time round, one day it will. Of course, I'm not an attorney, so I just listen to what I'm told. There is a possibility that due to some combination of circumstances, ECF might be seen as jointly liable by somebody somewhere.
This may be something of a leap, but unless two or three attorneys come to me and say that it is a FACT that THERE IS NO WAY that ECF can ever be held liable in any way, then we should consider the worst case scenario. That is simple prudence.
Because, if we accept a supplier (and perhaps especially a modder) as a Registered Supplier, and if we then promote them and term them an Approved Supplier, and if we afford them additional extended facilities here such as allowing them to maintain a forum here and sell their products, and if we allow them to advertise those products widely here, and if we are seen to fully approve those products - then just possibly there might be seen to be some sort of commercial connection between the two of us.
If you are an attorney and can state with absolute certainty that ECF can never be seen as a commercial partner with that modder or supplier, that's good. We welcome your input. If however you are not legally qualified, then let's face it - your opinion on this particular aspect of the issue is not of outstanding merit. It's always worth hearing but has no basis in fact.
Our duty to members
I have heard it said that ECF is a discussion forum and nothing more, and should withdraw from any form of advice giving. This is utter tosh. ECF is (a) a giant online community, (b) the largest source of ecigarette information and advice in the world, and (c) the global voice of e-smoking.
The single largest duty we probably have is to make information and advice available to members and visitors. It's up to them whether they want to follow it or not, we simply provide the information to make an informed choice.
What the modders say
What the modders say is quite interesting - the only common factor is that they all disagree with each other, shall we say 'strenuously'. I'd be interested to see two modders with the same opinion on any of these various issues - that would actually be some sort of progress.
The fact is that we don't know for sure what causes these fires and explosions - but every modder tells a different story. That should point out to you the real problem: they can't agree, they can't work together and they can't decide what is right or wrong.
This why we have been drawn into it.
What causes fires or explosions
You want to know what the cause is or the causes are? So would I. But if I asked three modders, I would get three different answers. Every modder's product is perfect, and better than the opposition's, and has no faults.
For sure.
Here's an example: one repected modder says that atomizers normally fail to open circuit, and therefore are unlikely to be the cause of incidents. Another says atties sometimes fail to a short-circuit in his experience. Another says that over-volting an atomizer by 75% is a bad idea (but they are over-volted by over 100% in some situations). So the modders don't agree on this issue - which is just one of many.
Are mods dangerous?
Yes and no. If built correctly and used correctly, no. But there are some big areas for user error: storing one with no kill switch in your purse or pocket; fitting unprotected batteries; using a poor-quality charger maybe. And if you combine this with a mod that wasn't built to a basic safety standard, then you are potentially in the danger area.
Is it OK to rely on safe user practice?
Well, now we are definitely into big debate territory. A gun is safe but as soon as you give it to a user, it's not, because of the massive potential for misuse.
With a mod, you can shout all you like about how they should be transported with the atomizer off or the batteries out, but that won't make people do it. I guess two out of three or maybe even more will occasionally put that mod in their pocket or purse with the attie on and the batts in. It's just the way it is.
You can scream at them about how they should buy the best batteries they can get - but some won't. They'll get the cheapest deal they can, or get fooled by the advertising and buy rubbish.
There is only one safe way to sell a product with inherent safety issues - make it as foolproof as possible, because people are fallible.
How far you want to go down that track is up to you. As far as ECF is concerned - only just as far as will remove our liability and that satisfies our duty to inform. It's not our job to tell people what to do but if we are forced to, we have to.
Cost of safety features
Firstly, the cost of safety features is not an issue because without them the product is not merchantable.
Secondly, the cost is very low in any case:
- a kill switch: a few bucks plus time to install.
- correctly-rated on/off switch: if the mod doesn't have this, surely it should not be sold at all?
- vent holes: drilling a couple of 2mm holes is not costly.
- protected batteries: mods should either be sold with proper batteries or empty. It's a few bucks more, but are you really saying that it's OK to sell the product with cheap, unprotected batteries?
Expensive electronics
There aren't any. They are all in the batteries, which is the whole point. Proper batteries contain an electronics package that controls various aspects of performance and service - which is why only protected batteries are used.
Are mods with safety features completely safe?
No, not really. It's more safe - like a car with seatbelts and airbags. Safety features can't protect you against deliberate misuse or unusual events.
A layered safety policy is much better than nothing, though. If layer 1 fails, maybe layer 2 will save the day.
What next?
Contrary to popular opinion, ECF doesn't want to do anything. We certainly don't want to be in the position of either telling people what they can or can't use, or even of telling suppliers what they can or can't advertise here. We just don't want that.
What we need to do is make sure we don't get sued, and that people can make an informed choice on what to buy. Simple as that.
How we get to there is the question. It could simply be that we need to publish what we consider - at this moment in time - to be a reasonable safety spec; and to place warnings here and there to advise people what to look out for.
It that's all it needs then that's exactly what we'll do. Going any further than that will be a painful and difficult move. The debate is on now, to see what people think and where they stand on this. Let's see what turns up.
.
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