FDA admits there may be no real danger with PG....

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catwoman19

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Snarkyone,

Thank you, thank you, thank you for that article. If I hear anyone else say "there's pg in that and the FDA says its used in antifreeze", I am going to hand them a copy of this article.
Wow, if Judge Leon got a hold of thisww, he'd tell the FDA to go pound salt!
This should also be a sticky to those who have thier doubts as to its safety.:D
 

Mustang394

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Where did you read that? I'd like to read it too. True, when we vape we take it directly into our lungs. But don't forget that we consciously do this and blow majority of it out.


EPA report bottom of page 6 top of page 7.

Read the directions included with the automatic dispenser for proper installation of unit and refill. Remove cap from aerosol can and place in a sequential aerosol dispenser which automatically releases a metered amount every 15 minutes. One unit should treat 6000 ft3 of closed air space. Dispenser should be located at a height of eight feet and at a point where wind flow will carry the particles throughout the area. Each spray dose is 100 mg and the median particle size is 30 microns. For regular, non-metered applications, spray room until a light fog forms. To sanitize the air, spray 6 to 8 seconds in an average size room (10' x10').
 

jj2

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Wow! I didn't even think of that I use a Vg/PG liquid. I hope I don't start gaining wait.:shock:


I hope so too for your sake.
I started and, of course, used PG and lost weight, but had a constant sore throat. Little by little, it got worse. Then I switch to VG for a while, and then tried PG/VP mix. Still got a sore throat so I switched back to straight VG and started gaining. :shock:
I've up exercising and am at a stall right now--not gaining, but not losing.
Hopefully, I get into a lose weight frame of mind here soon. With the holidays coming up, I doubt it.
Maybe I'll make it my New Years resolution.
Unlike you though, I'm 60 and my metobolism isn't what it use to be.
Hopefully you have no problems.
 

Janetda

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Snarkyone,

Thank you, thank you, thank you for that article. If I hear anyone else say "there's pg in that and the FDA says its used in antifreeze", I am going to hand them a copy of this article.
Wow, if Judge Leon got a hold of thisww, he'd tell the FDA to go pound salt!
This should also be a sticky to those who have thier doubts as to its safety.:D

The FDA's antifreeze comment was NOT about pg, it was about dg...which should NOT have been in the carts.
 

src97

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im baffled as to why you think a scientific study, although "old", has no relevance based on age? im dead serious. can anyone explain why its no longer applicable just because of how old the study is? the same scientific protocols were used that are also used today. A study isn't proven irrelevant because of age, it is proven irrelevant by other studies.

i think what some people are saying is that the production of e liquid needs to be regulated.

if PG were a danger that would have been all over the FDA report...not the fact that 2 carts were contaminated.

that is a HUGE difference.
 
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kristin

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The FDA's antifreeze comment was NOT about pg, it was about dg...which should NOT have been in the carts.
Janet, we aren't excited about this because it proves e-cigs are overall safe - although some have claimed that we don't even know the long term effects of PG and that "untested PG" is supposed to be significant. We've argued that PG in and of itself has been proven safe. Not as e-cigs, but in general.

We are excited because the general population and other NON-FDA groups keep pointing to PG as being "the toxic antifreeze ingredient." They are stupidly confusing it with DEG, but there is no arguing with them - until now, with these studies found. Some people have even done articles talking about how e-cigs are dangerous because of the PG!! :rolleyes:

Of course e-cigs need more study, but PG HAS already been proven safe for inhalation. So, anti-e-cig people need to drop the "but even PG hasn't been studied & it's toxic antifreeze" scare tactic.
 

LaceyUnderall

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There have been a ton of studies noting that PG is safe.

The EPA report noted by Kristin, is an excellent one and here are some of the most relevant quotes from it:

"the Agency has concluded that there are no endpoints of concern for oral, dermal, or inhalation exposure to propylene glycol." It was also noted that "A review of the available data has shown propylene glycol to be negative for carcinogenicity in studies [and] therefore, no further carcinogenic analysis is required."

The studies they refer to are studies the EPA did themselves.

There are other quotes noting that pg, when inhaled, does not pass through, nor harm the unborn fetus.

The overall read of the EPA RED Report, is that the EPA would PREFER to see PG used in products as it dissipates extremely quickly into the ground water, leaving no harmful affects on the environment nor on those living in the environment. THAT is why it is in de-icer. THAT is why they want it in Anti-freeze. PG in those products is NOT the active ingredient. It is inert. And since PG does not freeze... it is perfect for solutions that need to be used in cold applications. Have you ever wondered why your tooth paste and lotions don't freeze when they are in the belly of a plane at very cold temperatures?

PG is simply a carrier product. It carries scents for lotions, it carries pharmaceuticals for medications, it carries nicotine for eSmokers, and yes, it carries chemicals for anti-freeze and plane de-icer.

Also... here is another great PDF that summarizes all of the studies that were done up until 1946: http://www.e-cig.org/pdfs/1946-Synopsis-On-PG-As-Disinfection-Vapor.pdf

Most importantly from this is the study done on the childrens ward. That study was done over a period of 3 years. That IS a long term study. The above link also includes other studies that are worth reading... :)

EDIT: DEG is found in PG when the PG is not of the highest quality and yes... we don't need food grade or higher PG for deicer or anti-freeze because it is not meant to be ingested. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00043194.htm DEG does not have to be found in PG and frankly, the FDA did something good by pointing out that one company might possibly be getting a lower grade PG than they should. Also relative is that DEG IS ALLOWED in US products. http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=...&sig=AFQjCNHaz9EWZWGXdUivvElc_H_ikh0g_w&pli=1 According to this FDA document, DEG IS allowable to .1% when mixed with other glycerins.

However, due to their lack of knowledge, the FDA should have also discovered that the product used by nJoy which did not test positive for DEG, is supplied by DeKang and Smoking Everywhere's product is not. So if nJoy's product is made by the supplier who makes up 90% of the imported market... where is SE getting their product? To jump to a conclusion that a company using a product from a manufacturer in the other 10% of the market share, is like saying that because the Peanut Butter Corp had salmonella in their peanut butter, all peanut butter must be bad so let's pull it all.
 
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crazybry79

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OK, I'm sorry. Whoo-hoo, we found studies that said pg is safe.

Well, let's whoo-hoo away, that'll make the situation better for us.:rolleyes:

OR...maybe we could make this information available to the public. Right now all the public sees is that "Theres no proof their safe" "They contain PG which is antifreeze" "There was _____ found and its really bad for you"

Well, the studies are out there that are disproving the FDA's gross misreepresentations of these products. DEG is in antifreeze. So is water. Maybe water should be banned.:lol:

Yes they contain PG....but they dont mention that the PG content is well under FDA's approved limits.

Yes, ______ was found. What they dont tell you is that they are under acceptable limits, and similar, if not more _______ is found in daily used products around your house.

The American people, in general, will not go out and find this information. They see what the media gives them, gobble it up, and take it as the one and only truth.

It's up to people like us to go out, find this information, and make it public as possible.

OR....we can sit here, whoo-hoo away, and in a few weeks go back to analogs.:evil:
 
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kristin

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OK, I'm sorry. Whoo-hoo, we found studies that said pg is safe.
Seriously, what is your problem?

Have you been following any of the stuff being said in the media or on ECF?

Most of us are hoping that the FDA could be convinced (or pressured by popular demand) that the likely risk of PVs is minimal enough to allow continued use while definitive studies are made on the long term effects of PV use. Mainly because it removes the greater danger of tobacco smoking in the meantime.

Since PG is one of the primary ingredients, the proven safety of PG for inhalation could have a huge impact on that decision.

Unfortunately, the media and anti-smoking groups continuously report that PG is proven to harmful and scare people by saying it's essentially as dangerous as antifreeze - the exact opposite of what actual studies show. The more these reports go out, the more the general public thinks PVs are unsafe and downright harmful. If the general public thinks this, they will have no sympathy for the PV users' plight, should they be banned everywhere. As it is, places like New Jersey are even banning them for PERSONAL USE, based on these erroneous reports.

So, yeah - woohoo that PG is proven safe. It has a HUGE impact on most arguments against PVs.
Crazybry79 is right - this needs to get out to the general public, too.
 
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Sun Vaporer

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Kristin--I think, as well as some of the Supplers here as well, that I have discussed this issue with are more concerned about the flavoring as there has never been any studies done on long term direct inhalation of flavorings. Also flavors vary greatly on their ingrediants. So a real issue to be looking at is the flavoring.


Sun
 

LaceyUnderall

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Kristin--I think, as well as some of the Supplers here as well, that I have discussed this issue with are more concerned about the flavoring as there has never been any studies done on long term direct inhalation of flavorings. Also flavors vary greatly on their ingrediants. So a real issue to be looking at is the flavoring.
Sun

There are some excellent threads regarding this issue here and on Right To Vape - Index. I think Kate started those discussions. If you are interested Kristin, let me know and I will dig out those links for you.

However, if you are in the mood to search... you are particularly looking for mention of popcorn flavoring that caused severe reactions to the persons on the production line. Off of the top of my head, what I can remember is that the ingredient found to cause such issues is not used in Lorann's products which is why they are preferred for usage with DIY'ers. I called Lorann about it awhile ago and they guaranteed me that none of their product contained this "contaminant" - which it isn't really, but for inhalation purposes... it most certainly should be considered as such.
 

Sun Vaporer

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Sun

what about flavored tobacco?

I dont know if they flavor tobacco the same way but if they do (or did rather) I dont recall ever reading that to be more harmful.

Now if tobacco flavoring was done without flavor extracts (i have no clue how they did it) then i guess thats a moot point.


Scr--tobacco flavorings are derived from the oils of the tobacco plant---tobacco absolute and tobacco essense---but might not be an issue at the level they are used ---there just needs to be more testing. It is not difficult or even expensive in the bigger picture to get these studies done ---the manufactures just have to want to decide to commit the money and do them.


Sun
 

LaceyUnderall

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Lacey---the player was Diacetyl and it is not in the Lorann, or Capella. The point I was making was that no one has ever really had the need till now to invesitage and study inhaling directly flavorings ment to be digested---there was neve a need save for this incident Safety and Health Topics: Flavorings-Related Lung Disease - Diacetyl . There is data about PG and Nicotine, but not much with the many offered flavors.


Sun


Thank you! I knew it started with a D LOL. There definitely needs to be more testing on flavorings. However, many flavorings are being used in the tobacco industry for flavors other than tobacco. Granted, we have never studied flavorings on their own... but what about Tasty Puff? I haven't run across any flavoring studies on that... have you? it would be interesting to see.
 

LaceyUnderall

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I have not scene anything on Tasty Puff either Lacey. Belive it or not the flavoring is my biggest concern and that is why I am sticking with tobacco "flavors" until I see some data. With all the money in this game, I just can not understand the lack of doing the studies just to show what we are dealing with. Very frustrating.


Sun

Agreed. Testing will be a good thing and it will come... and it will come sooner than the tobacco industry ever presented theirs. I think that is one thing that we tend to forget: The tobacco industry was forced after almost 50 years of hard-core marketing to start doing tests. The ecig industry has been here in the US for 2 years and there has been more testing done on ecigs in the first 2 years, then tobacco had in 50. So we are on the right track.

I am pretty confident that if the FDA backs off just a little bit and allows the industry to grow a little bit further and stop spending it's money on stopped shipments and fighting the media and in the courts, there will be some very interesting tests that will come about... from consumer organizations to industry organizations to medical organizations and that is what is really needed... testing from a multitude of interested parties.

IMHO, I believe all of this testing is going to truly open up some new medical thinking... and many are going to benefit... not just eSmokers.
 

Paworkingmom

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Seriously, what is your problem?

Have you been following any of the stuff being said in the media or on ECF?

Most of us are hoping that the FDA could be convinced (or pressured by popular demand) that the likely risk of PVs is minimal enough to allow continued use while definitive studies are made on the long term effects of PV use. Mainly because it removes the greater danger of tobacco smoking in the meantime.

Since PG is one of the primary ingredients, the proven safety of PG for inhalation could have a huge impact on that decision.

Unfortunately, the media and anti-smoking groups continuously report that PG is proven to harmful and scare people by saying it's essentially as dangerous as antifreeze - the exact opposite of what actual studies show. The more these reports go out, the more the general public thinks PVs are unsafe and downright harmful. If the general public thinks this, they will have no sympathy for the PV users' plight, should they be banned everywhere. As it is, places like New Jersey are even banning them for PERSONAL USE, based on these erroneous reports.

So, yeah - woohoo that PG is proven safe. It has a HUGE impact on most arguments against PVs.
Crazybry79 is right - this needs to get out to the general public, too.

How do we do we tell people? Anti-smokers you will never be convinced of anything contrary. They are dogmatic zealots whose cause defines them. The news media reports what sells which usually negative. So how do we make a difference? I am asking sincerely.
 

crazybry79

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How do we do we tell people? Anti-smokers you will never be convinced of anything contrary. They are dogmatic zealots whose cause defines them. The news media reports what sells which usually negative. So how do we make a difference? I am asking sincerely.
Here is my suggestion. Its small, but it's the best angle I can think of for now. So far several have contributed. More would be appreciated!

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...sion/42596-everyone-you-have-homework-do.html
 

SheerLuckHolmes

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How do we do we tell people? Anti-smokers you will never be convinced of anything contrary. They are dogmatic zealots whose cause defines them. The news media reports what sells which usually negative. So how do we make a difference? I am asking sincerely.

Memorize tests, which doctors did them, the years in which they were done. When talking to people in your everyday life, just mention the studies and drop the names and dates. It will show that your really know what your talking about and not just talking out of your shoe. When they hear the fear-mongers droping false statements without facts. You and your data will win.
 

kristin

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How do we do we tell people? Anti-smokers you will never be convinced of anything contrary. They are dogmatic zealots whose cause defines them. The news media reports what sells which usually negative. So how do we make a difference? I am asking sincerely.
Here is a link to a thread I wrote to help people become better advocates: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...0175-10-easy-ways-you-can-help-fight-ban.html

I, personally, have been writing pro-e-cig articles and encourage people here to link to them (facebook, blogs, websites, emails to tv stations & newspapers, digg, myspace, twitter) and use them to debunk other articles:
Negative Reactions Mystify Electronic Cigarette Owners - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com

FDA Miscalculates Real Danger to Smokers - Associated Content - associatedcontent.com
 
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