I keep hearing that Doors song from "Apocalypse Now" in my head......I hope it goes away! The Wiz!
Fda crackdown looms
- Thread starter Sun Vaporer
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Wiz--I was thinking more along the lines of Stairway to Heaven for us old timers as that may be the only place I will find an e-cig soon!!--Sun
Sun, LMAO......I just hope it's not "The End" Like Morrison said......with all these new members here,one has to believe in "Strength in numbers"!The Wiz!Wiz--I was thinking more along the lines of Stairway to Heaven for us old timers as that may be the only place I will find an e-cig soon!!--Sun
Since it has been long passed now in the thread, I'll repeat pointer to: Right To Vape
Thanks Jamie!
Wow, what a thread! Took quite a while to get through it all. I'd like to post something I wrote a while back summarizing what I believe to be some of the major issues we face and possible solutions. It's not necessarily complete, as I did it on a whim for suppliers. Sorry for the length (but judging from some of these posts I think I'm ok)
Problems and possible solutions:
1. The majority of e-liquid consumers use and it's effects of long term use are untested and unknown. The amount of nicotine ingested is unknown.
Solutions:
Suppliers/manufacturers should test each batch of e-liquid coming from China to make sure the ingredients are pure and then list them on the bottles. Make it well known that you do test!
We need testing on how much nicotine is being inhaled. Personally, I think 36mg should be taken off the shelves until we know for sure to prevent something bad from happening. We're on fragile ground now and the last thing we need is someone having a major od or lawsuits.
We need better testing on exactly what's in the vapor. Sure, you can have an ingredient list but we don't know what happens when they're heated and ingested in this way. A breakdown that's well publicized would be wonderful. This would be great for "second hand vapor" as well since that's what all the antis get their panties in a wad about in the first place.
2. We need new e-liquid manufacturers with high standards (possibly in the US):
China doesn't have a good reputation for quality control. The fact that these are unregulated, untested, and coming from China isn't helping the situation. We need tested, company regulated e-liquid coming from a trusted source. Possibly for the devices as well to avoid problems at customs.
Once someone starts manufacturing the e-liquid that's been tested, includes quality ingredients, and has effective packaging, every supplier should purchase from this manufacturer. Not only will this look better to your customers, but it will improve our chances for success.
3. Health/NRT claims are biting us in the .... with the media, consumers, and government agencies:
This started with pissing off WHO by manufacturers/suppliers making false claims . You'd think these claims would of stopped after WHO made their statements, but not all have. Good ole Jon at Safecig is a prime example of this. Here's links to check out on the subject:
WHO | Marketers of electronic cigarettes should halt unproved therapy claims
WHO - Marketers of electronic cigarettes should halt unproved therapy claims - *E-Cigtest, the ultimate electronic cigarettes review site* Le site de la cigarette électronique
Recently almost every article I've seen has stated something along the lines of "electronic claims to be safe but unregulated and untested from China". The media is this up and it's making the entire industry look bad. It's certainly not living up to it's full potential.
Solutions:
Market correctly.
Marketing advice to suppliers
Put out press releases, contact newspapers or television shows to set the facts strait. We need to try to put an end to the uneducated reports being thrown out left and right!
4. The packaging isn't up to par:
Solution:
Each and every bottle of e-liquid should have tamper proof/child proof caps, warning labels, and ingredient lists. A notecard (or something along those lines) should be included with e-liquid safety tips. We've got to safeguard!
5. We've got to find out exactly where we stand with government agencies and what direction to take next:
I think everyone knows it's not going to be this way forever. Something is going to change. Whether it be the NRT route, being banned (god forbid), or as Lacey suggested, the homeopathic route. We need a plan. We need to find out what agencies/organizations/media/etc will be on our side and who won't.
We've been attempting to tackle these issues over at RTV also.
Wow, what a thread! Took quite a while to get through it all. I'd like to post something I wrote a while back summarizing what I believe to be some of the major issues we face and possible solutions. It's not necessarily complete, as I did it on a whim for suppliers. Sorry for the length (but judging from some of these posts I think I'm ok
)Problems and possible solutions:
1. The majority of e-liquid consumers use and it's effects of long term use are untested and unknown. The amount of nicotine ingested is unknown.
Solutions:
Suppliers/manufacturers should test each batch of e-liquid coming from China to make sure the ingredients are pure and then list them on the bottles. Make it well known that you do test!
We need testing on how much nicotine is being inhaled. Personally, I think 36mg should be taken off the shelves until we know for sure to prevent something bad from happening. We're on fragile ground now and the last thing we need is someone having a major od or lawsuits.
We need better testing on exactly what's in the vapor. Sure, you can have an ingredient list but we don't know what happens when they're heated and ingested in this way. A breakdown that's well publicized would be wonderful. This would be great for "second hand vapor" as well since that's what all the antis get their panties in a wad about in the first place.
2. We need new e-liquid manufacturers with high standards (possibly in the US):
China doesn't have a good reputation for quality control. The fact that these are unregulated, untested, and coming from China isn't helping the situation. We need tested, company regulated e-liquid coming from a trusted source. Possibly for the devices as well to avoid problems at customs.
Once someone starts manufacturing the e-liquid that's been tested, includes quality ingredients, and has effective packaging, every supplier should purchase from this manufacturer. Not only will this look better to your customers, but it will improve our chances for success.
3. Health/NRT claims are biting us in the .... with the media, consumers, and government agencies:
This started with pissing off WHO by manufacturers/suppliers making false claims . You'd think these claims would of stopped after WHO made their statements, but not all have. Good ole Jon at Safecig is a prime example of this. Here's links to check out on the subject:
WHO | Marketers of electronic cigarettes should halt unproved therapy claims
WHO - Marketers of electronic cigarettes should halt unproved therapy claims - *E-Cigtest, the ultimate electronic cigarettes review site* Le site de la cigarette électronique
Recently almost every article I've seen has stated something along the lines of "electronic claims to be safe but unregulated and untested from China". The media is this up and it's making the entire industry look bad. It's certainly not living up to it's full potential.
Solutions:
Market correctly.
Marketing advice to suppliers
Put out press releases, contact newspapers or television shows to set the facts strait. We need to try to put an end to the uneducated reports being thrown out left and right!
4. The packaging isn't up to par:
Solution:
Each and every bottle of e-liquid should have tamper proof/child proof caps, warning labels, and ingredient lists. A notecard (or something along those lines) should be included with e-liquid safety tips. We've got to safeguard!
5. We've got to find out exactly where we stand with government agencies and what direction to take next:
I think everyone knows it's not going to be this way forever. Something is going to change. Whether it be the NRT route, being banned (god forbid), or as Lacey suggested, the homeopathic route. We need a plan. We need to find out what agencies/organizations/media/etc will be on our side and who won't.
We've been attempting to tackle these issues over at RTV also.
Sorry about being mistaken about the American FDA earlier, it's hard to keep up with so many different administrations...
Here's what we've got on the Canadian side of things :
--> "...that claim to be a smoking-cessation aid..."
So in Canada it appears to be the same deal. All the vendors have to do is be careful they don't make claims on their packaging?
That's simple enough.
We already know what they're for, we're not ......... why would we need claims written on the box?
Eventually we will see what Health Canada has to say... their testing routine is pretty rigorous from what I hear. Often banning drugs that remain legal in the US.
Fingers crossed.
Last thing we need is to be forced to return to using those cancer sticks.
Here's what we've got on the Canadian side of things :
--> "...that claim to be a smoking-cessation aid..."
So in Canada it appears to be the same deal. All the vendors have to do is be careful they don't make claims on their packaging?
That's simple enough.
We already know what they're for, we're not ......... why would we need claims written on the box?
Eventually we will see what Health Canada has to say... their testing routine is pretty rigorous from what I hear. Often banning drugs that remain legal in the US.
Fingers crossed.
Last thing we need is to be forced to return to using those cancer sticks.
A direct quote from the FDA press officer on the FOX News report
FOXNews.com - Chinese E-Cigs Rapidly Gaining Ground Amid Health Concerns - Health News | Current Health News | Medical News
I almost wonder if the claims are being miscommunicated by reporters.
FOXNews.com - Chinese E-Cigs Rapidly Gaining Ground Amid Health Concerns - Health News | Current Health News | Medical News
I almost wonder if the claims are being miscommunicated by reporters.
I've read every word of every post and I personally think there have been many valid points made here.
Included with the letter writing campaign, I think we have to: (1) Do damage control with some of these crazy sellers who make their equally crazy claims. (2) We have to change what we call our devices, "P.V's" (Personal Vaporizer) works for me. Anything but a *cigarette*. (3) Stop using ones that resemble a cigarette. ...Paint them, put a "skin" on them, or use it at home.
I think ECF is an impressive group of highly intelligent individuals. Each having different thoughts of how to protect our unforseen future but all passionate for the same outcome. I firmly believe there is more than one right answer here. By combining ideas and working together we would be a force to be reconed with for any organization.
I also wanted to add that a friend of mine wrote to one of the manufacturers in China asking a few questions. In their reply he was told these juices are available:
Vitamin A, Vitamin B, Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Coenzyme Q10, Coenzyme Q10+Vitamin A, Coenzyme Q10+Vitamin B, Coenzyme Q10+Vitamin C, Coenzyme Q10+Vitamin E, carotene, ginseng.
Does this mean we could use them as a "supplement" delivery system instead?
Thank you everyone for your incredible input! I enjoy it so much!!!
Included with the letter writing campaign, I think we have to: (1) Do damage control with some of these crazy sellers who make their equally crazy claims. (2) We have to change what we call our devices, "P.V's" (Personal Vaporizer) works for me. Anything but a *cigarette*. (3) Stop using ones that resemble a cigarette. ...Paint them, put a "skin" on them, or use it at home.
I think ECF is an impressive group of highly intelligent individuals. Each having different thoughts of how to protect our unforseen future but all passionate for the same outcome. I firmly believe there is more than one right answer here. By combining ideas and working together we would be a force to be reconed with for any organization.
I also wanted to add that a friend of mine wrote to one of the manufacturers in China asking a few questions. In their reply he was told these juices are available:
Vitamin A, Vitamin B, Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Coenzyme Q10, Coenzyme Q10+Vitamin A, Coenzyme Q10+Vitamin B, Coenzyme Q10+Vitamin C, Coenzyme Q10+Vitamin E, carotene, ginseng.
Does this mean we could use them as a "supplement" delivery system instead?
Thank you everyone for your incredible input! I enjoy it so much!!!
I don't think it would matter with the units themselves.. I think it is the juice that they are worried about.
Thanks Sun Vap for the links!
The press conference was hilarious... Gov just talks in circles, they're doing nothing new, and they never answer questions.
it seems customs have stopped some shipments..
I also think it's the nicotine that will be the issue, it is a drug, the FDA will want a way to regulate it, and seeing as how it's a consumable (goldmine) the gov will want a share... after all they are top dealer on the block.
I think either they will not allow bottles of liquid to be traded, and tax the hell out of carts, and leave them behind shelves, or they will figure out a way to incorporate the pharm... make it a prescription device, your insurance will pay $500.00, and you will pay your deductible to get the e-cig....?
Then again, I'm just a musician.
The press conference was hilarious... Gov just talks in circles, they're doing nothing new, and they never answer questions.
it seems customs have stopped some shipments..
I also think it's the nicotine that will be the issue, it is a drug, the FDA will want a way to regulate it, and seeing as how it's a consumable (goldmine) the gov will want a share... after all they are top dealer on the block.
I think either they will not allow bottles of liquid to be traded, and tax the hell out of carts, and leave them behind shelves, or they will figure out a way to incorporate the pharm... make it a prescription device, your insurance will pay $500.00, and you will pay your deductible to get the e-cig....?
Then again, I'm just a musician.
I've read all these posts last night and this morning. Very interesting.
My one concern is IF the big tobacco gets involved! I do not want that! It seems to me that they are not regulated at all. Look what they put in cigarettes and get away with. They are killing people and getting away with it! Can you imagine what kind of stuff they would put in the liquid? No thank you!
Just me two cents.
My one concern is IF the big tobacco gets involved! I do not want that! It seems to me that they are not regulated at all. Look what they put in cigarettes and get away with. They are killing people and getting away with it! Can you imagine what kind of stuff they would put in the liquid? No thank you!
Just me two cents.
Thanks Sun Vap for the links!
The press conference was hilarious... Gov just talks in circles, they're doing nothing new, and they never answer questions.
it seems customs have stopped some shipments..
You are welcome for the links. I give a full thumbs up to the Reproter of this article as he used due dillagence in actually talking to the FDA instead of speculating as so many other news reports we have read did.
The reporter in the instant case, Ken McLaughlin, confirmed that Rita Chappelle, FDA agency spokeswoman, stated "It is illegal to sell or market them, and the FDA is looking into this, and this is an open case. Beyond that I cannot comment". So I do not think the reporter in this article is misconstruing what Ms. Chappelle stated. To the Contrary, he is giving a direct quote. The scope of what the FDA indents to do and when it will do it is still open----Sun
My bigger fear is that BT is already involved, flush enough money in "donations" thru the fda and their competition can be banned
I have been reading that BT has been skirting (poor choice of words) around the issues with the SNUs and Tobacco pellets, being careful to market them as alternatives and not cessation products as well.... they probably have their hands full as well...and I know they tried something similar in the past, but why wouldn't they offer E cigs as well??? Seems only natural, since they have the R and D money as well as the resources to produce it.... I would be tickled to see a Camel or Marlboro label on a vaporizor and cartridges at my local gas station. (brand loyalty is big with tobacco users) I think it would resolve a lot of public concerns and help educate the public about the wonderful E-Cig technology... education is our biggest weapon...
So the FDA is sooo concerned about those who already quit being lured back in to smoking harmful substances? How about banning the harmful substances? Like, banning smoking? Seriously, if there were no tobacco cigarettes, and I wanted to start a company selling cigarettes, that's cool? And if I wanted to create a vapor inhaler shaped like a cigarette, they'd stop me? Really, FDA? Really??
How about the FDA ban tobacco right now, and let people sell e-cigs? I could tell you right now that would save a hell of a lot of lives.
Someone should send Obama an e-cig so he can see how great these things are and stop the FDA from taking further (stupid) action.
How about the FDA ban tobacco right now, and let people sell e-cigs? I could tell you right now that would save a hell of a lot of lives.
Someone should send Obama an e-cig so he can see how great these things are and stop the FDA from taking further (stupid) action.
Has anyone heard about this semi-related recent FDA 'ban':
FDA Declares Form of Vitamin B6 a Drug, Effectively Banning Pyridoxamine from Dietary Supplements by Mike Adams the Health Ranger
Ouch. Seriously, I think something is generally wrong here.
I still say tobacco companies can only help us. They have money and power, and electronic cigarettes may need both given the recent FDA guerrilla tactics in regards to naturally (and commonly) occurring substances.
Carry on.
FDA Declares Form of Vitamin B6 a Drug, Effectively Banning Pyridoxamine from Dietary Supplements by Mike Adams the Health Ranger
Ouch. Seriously, I think something is generally wrong here.
I still say tobacco companies can only help us. They have money and power, and electronic cigarettes may need both given the recent FDA guerrilla tactics in regards to naturally (and commonly) occurring substances.
Carry on.
We should just start calling major cigarette companies asking where we can buy their brand of ecigarettes.
I have been thinking about this quote. It is not at all innacurate if the context is that it (the e-cig) is a NRT device. It may be that that is what was being talked about when the illegality of the device came up.
Every instance always seems to turn out to be over an NRT claim. I think there is a lot of overreaction so far.
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