FDA FDA deeming regulation proposals

[Rossum]

Thus rules don't go in effect until Congress debates the issue openly, and then votes on rules that make sense.

Huh? There is no requirement for Congress to have any debate or take a vote on any regulations. The can if they want to, but they can also ignore 'em and just let 'em become effective.

Under
 the
 Small 
Business 
Regulatory 
Enforcement
 Fairness
 Act 
(also 
known 
as 
the Congressional 
Review
 Act),
new
 final 
rules 
must 
be
 sent 
to 
Congress and 
the 
Government Accountability 
Office for 
review 
before 
they 
can 
take 
effect.
[...]
If
 the
 House 
and 
Senate 
pass 
a 
resolution
 of 
disapproval 
and 
the 
President
 signs 
it 
(or 
if 
both houses
 override 
a 
presidential
 veto),
the
rule
 becomes 
void
From:
http://www.federalregister.gov/uploads/2011/01/the_rulemaking_process.pdf

 

[Stosh]

I think the fight has to be bigger than "how do you FDA really define a tobacco product?"

"The words mean what I say they mean, nothing more nothing less"
The FDA is "deeming" what the words mean, devoid of scientific principals.

 

[skoony]

He missed bringing up the black market and other things that would greatly impact the dynamic both in current situation and going forward.

If you are reading this, and are sure you wouldn't go to a black market to get whatever it is that is 'regulated out of existence' then perhaps you speak truth, for yourself. There will be plenty of others who do. I see zero chance of it being regulated out of existence.

It is possible, nay encouraged, to shame smokers. I can find umpteen posts on ECF that disparage smoking/smokers, so don't need to go a looking in 'enemy camp' for that sort of spin. That plays well right here in vaping culture. Hate on smoking/smokers and you're golden. Try and debate with anyone about faux science on 'harms of smoking' and it almost always ends with one side, the hate on smoking side, picking up their ball and going home as they simply cannot hear another side to that debate. Mind is made up. Smoking kills. Again, not just found in enemy camp, but allowed to permeate entire world culture.

Unless you are an ex-smoker that hates on smoking, you are shunned. Go read Winston Man's diary/blog on this if this isn't clear. There are many examples of this around. It is the scapegoat, it is immensely popular, and it is, in may ways, legalized to shame smokers by any means necessary.

That we live in a world society that doesn't fight on this front (via science, politics, philosophy, and economics) is why we also live in a world that has managed to manipulate the masses into accepting a smoking economy.

And is also why we currently live in a world that has an increasingly popular underground market for smokes. Still legal. But has an underground market.

Regulate out of existence?
Thanks for humoring me.

they are not going to regulate it out of existence,they are going to regulate it to the point
where combustible tobacco is the cheaper alternative.
you have to realize that in a lot of states the cost of your basic set up with a back up and
initial cost of juice,+maintenance is going to discourage a lot of smokers.
people like us will carry on,no matter what,or what we have to do.
the rest of the millions of smokers out there will have but one choice.
smoke ciga-likes from BT,or pay less for regular cigarettes.

 

[Nate760]

they are not going to regulate it out of existence,they are going to regulate it to the point
where combustible tobacco is the cheaper alternative.

Yes, this absolutely is the intended endgame. The small and mid-sized vendors are to be crushed under the financial burden of the FDA application process, after which the few remaining larger vendors will be saddled with sufficient debt that they can be bought up by BT at bargain-basement prices. With the entire industry consolidated under the control of three or four tobacco giants, tax hikes and price increases are applied until there is no longer a monetary incentive to switch from smoking to vaping. A few years later, citing declining sales numbers, the tobacco companies start quietly discontinuing production of all remaining e-cig products.

If we don't succeed in turning the tide of public opinion, this is exactly how the whole scenario is going to play out. It's not alarmism and it's not overreaction; it's just the truth.

 

[Devonmoonshire]

Yes, this absolutely is the intended endgame. The small and mid-sized vendors are to be crushed under the financial burden of the FDA application process, after which the few remaining larger vendors will be saddled with sufficient debt that they can be bought up by BT at bargain-basement prices. With the entire industry consolidated under the control of three or four tobacco giants, tax hikes and price increases are applied until there is no longer a monetary incentive to switch from smoking to vaping. A few years later, citing declining sales numbers, the tobacco companies start quietly discontinuing production of all remaining e-cig products.

If we don't succeed in turning the tide of public opinion, this is exactly how the whole scenario is going to play out. It's not alarmism and it's not overreaction; it's just the truth.

I agree that that is one possible scenario that could play out. As a matter of fact it is probably one that has already been discussed behind closed doors by the FDA, BT and BP. That is a very likely driving force behind this to ensure the continuation of BT and the continued revenue from the already proven failures such as Patches, Gum and Lozenges.

 

[Sirius]

I agree that that is one possible scenario that could play out. As a matter of fact it is probably one that has already been discussed behind closed doors by the FDA, BT and BP. That is a very likely driving force behind this to ensure the continuation of BT and the continued revenue from the already proven failures such as Patches, Gum and Lozenges.

Well with the release of Nicotrol (nicotine inhaler) you can bet they got the idea about putting, or trying to put, e-cig vendors out of business. "Oh look here what we got..an e-cig act-a-like" No more need for e-cigs everyone!" blech
I wouldn't use one if they were the last resort. BP money grabbing dog farts!

 

[Nate760]

I agree that that is one possible scenario that could play out. As a matter of fact it is probably one that has already been discussed behind closed doors by the FDA, BT and BP. That is a very likely driving force behind this to ensure the continuation of BT and the continued revenue from the already proven failures such as Patches, Gum and Lozenges.

They've already scored a great propaganda victory by convincing a large segment of the public at large that "unregulated" is a synonym for "dangerous and probably deadly." Millions of people now believe, quite fervently, that a consumer product can't possibly be safe unless it's subject to federal oversight. Worse yet, they also believe the FDA is a benevolent, well-intentioned agency that genuinely cares about promoting and improving public health, when in fact that couldn't be farther from the truth.

 

[Sirius]

They've already scored a great propaganda victory by convincing a large segment of the public at large that "unregulated" is a synonym for "dangerous and probably deadly." Millions of people now believe, quite fervently, that a consumer product can't possibly be safe unless it's subject to federal oversight. Worse yet, they also believe the FDA is a benevolent, well-intentioned agency that genuinely cares about promoting and improving public health, when in fact that couldn't be farther from the truth.

You got that right Nate.

 

[nomemory]

I think it's a really good video..


Obviously there's an agenda to it (which we all have), considering a good chunk of it relates to the dietary supplement industry's battle with the FDA & Big Pharma (and I'm assuming it was created/funded by at least the friends of the supplement industry -- which certainly doesn't discredit what's said in the video, and is probably 1000x more truthful & insightful than, say, FDA's Facebook puff-piece posts)..

But I think one can easily make the case that it parallels the vaping industry & our battle.. Only we're not only up against the FDA & BP, but also BT & state/local governments, as well...


After watching that, and doing some research & some thinking over the past week or so, I'm pretty convinced at this point that the FDA is not about health, but about money (bold mine)...

"The FDA's federal budget request for fiscal year (FY) 2012 totaled $4.36 billion, while the proposed 2014 budget is $4.7 billion. About $2 billion of this budget is generated by user fees. Pharmaceutical firms pay the majority of these fees, which are used to expedite drug reviews."

Food and Drug Administration - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Now keeping that in mind.. I think rolygate (ECF Forum Manager) made 2 excellent must-read posts the day the proposal came out, both which hit the nail on the head..

They're a bit negative, depressing & bleak.. and even though we need to keep fighting harder than ever in all kinds of ways, I believe he speaks the eye-opening truth & reality of all this...

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...555865-proposed-fda-rules-3.html#post12944437

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...555865-proposed-fda-rules-5.html#post12945163

I think it's naive of anybody to think the FDA is not motivated by monetary gains. Since it's deemed so bad, why don't they just outright ban tobacco like {OTHER STUFF} or the other host of schedule one drugs? Because of the booming tax revenue that tobacco generates for the government and because of the huge tobacco lobby giving millions to those abject crooks in washington. I thought at the very most the fda would allow the vaping community alone, albeit with "sin" tax attached. Honestly even if there was a tax attached to juice that would make the prices comparable with cigarettes, I would still vape. But to have small businesses submit every one of their juices to a lengthy and expensive application process is obviously designed to run these guys out. And think of all the jobs that this bill will kill. I didn't read every post so I don't know if this was mentioned, but there are three new vape stores in my area, all employing people...putting people to work which is something the government has failed to do. Think of all those online start ups who are self employed and possibly employing more people...all those jobs just gone. I saw a documentary at one point about the history of {OTHER STUFF}. I'm sure others have seen the same one, but basically in the beginning the government didn't outlaw {OTHER STUFF}. The said you could buy {OTHER STUFF} but you had to have a stamp/coupon only issued by the federal government and coincidentally they never issued any of those stamps/coupons. That is the mentality I get from what I am hearing about the fda's new regulations. They aren't actually making it illegal but making it impossible to buy/sell/manufacture. I've only been vaping for 3 weeks and Was only smoking cigs for a couple years but my transition was so easy and I breathe so much better and it disgusts me that the government wants to take that away from others. /rant

 

[Katya]

They've already scored a great propaganda victory by convincing a large segment of the public at large that "unregulated" is a synonym for "dangerous and probably deadly." Millions of people now believe, quite fervently, that a consumer product can't possibly be safe unless it's subject to federal oversight. Worse yet, they also believe the FDA is a benevolent, well-intentioned agency that genuinely cares about promoting and improving public health, when in fact that couldn't be farther from the truth.

Can I get this on a T-shirt?

 

[Sirius]

I think it's naive of anybody to think the FDA is not motivated by monetary gains. Since it's deemed so bad, why don't they just outright ban tobacco like {OTHER STUFF} or the other host of schedule one drugs? Because of the booming tax revenue that tobacco generates for the government and because of the huge tobacco lobby giving millions to those abject crooks in washington. I thought at the very most the fda would allow the vaping community alone, albeit with "sin" tax attached. Honestly even if there was a tax attached to juice that would make the prices comparable with cigarettes, I would still vape. But to have small businesses submit every one of their juices to a lengthy and expensive application process is obviously designed to run these guys out. And think of all the jobs that this bill will kill. I didn't read every post so I don't know if this was mentioned, but there are three new vape stores in my area, all employing people...putting people to work which is something the government has failed to do. Think of all those online start ups who are self employed and possibly employing more people...all those jobs just gone. I saw a documentary at one point about the history of {OTHER STUFF}. I'm sure others have seen the same one, but basically in the beginning the government didn't outlaw {OTHER STUFF}. The said you could buy {OTHER STUFF} but you had to have a stamp/coupon only issued by the federal government and coincidentally they never issued any of those stamps/coupons. That is the mentality I get from what I am hearing about the fda's new regulations. They aren't actually making it illegal but making it impossible to buy/sell/manufacture. I've only been vaping for 3 weeks and Was only smoking cigs for a couple years but my transition was so easy and I breathe so much better and it disgusts me that the government wants to take that away from others. /rant

52% of the American people voted for bigger government. They got what they wanted. Now we are all screwed. Thanks Dems. Republicans are no better imo. If they were in it would be the same payoff. I will never vote anything but Libertarian, ever!
One day we will be the 53% and then government will be screwed!

 

[nomemory]

52% of the American people voted for bigger government. They got what they wanted. Now we are all screwed. Thanks Dems. Republicans are no better imo. If they were in it would be the same payoff. I will never vote anything but Libertarian, ever!
One day we will be the 53% and then government will be screwed!

Ha, don't get me started on the "most transparent" administration ever

 

[StormFinch]

Can I get this on a T-shirt?

Well... yeah, but it's gonna have to be a really big t-shirt.

 

[distortoblotto]

Sorry if this offends anyone..............

 

[skoony]

Yes, this absolutely is the intended endgame. The small and mid-sized vendors are to be crushed under the financial burden of the FDA application process, after which the few remaining larger vendors will be saddled with sufficient debt that they can be bought up by BT at bargain-basement prices. With the entire industry consolidated under the control of three or four tobacco giants, tax hikes and price increases are applied until there is no longer a monetary incentive to switch from smoking to vaping. A few years later, citing declining sales numbers, the tobacco companies start quietly discontinuing production of all remaining e-cig products.

If we don't succeed in turning the tide of public opinion, this is exactly how the whole scenario is going to play out. It's not alarmism and it's not overreaction; it's just the truth.

thanks for the back up nate.
this time though much unlike my youthful indulgences of the past,i plan on taking advantage of the situation.
i will not sit idly buy watching others raking in money hand over foot.
much like my hippie peers and and workers in the oldest profession i will get in early,
make a lot of money and retire.
and before any of you go off self righteous history has proved that the ones with a realistic
attitude about these things come out ahead.
only 0.05 percent of people that fall by the wayside does not represent the other 99.95%

regards
mike

 

[Gato del Jugo]

I think it's naive of anybody to think the FDA is not motivated by monetary gains.

I've personally already had my doubts about the FDA prior to this proposal, so it's no real surprise there, especially with my understanding & subsequent distrust (& disgust) of other large institutions (such as the Federal Reserve, for example)...


I think what was interesting to me, partly through that video, is the extent of it, as well as their tactics..

Seems like things of this nature have gotten a lot worse over the past 20-30 years, designing & implementing all sorts of new, sophisticated & brazen ways to exploit the masses (to put it nicely)...


Certain things have gone too far for too long..

People, and not just vapers, need to wake up about a lot of things -- and then act..

Even if it's just a small & seemingly insignificant decision/action in a person's life, the death of an evil giant can still be had by a thousand cuts...

 

[Katya]

Well... yeah, but it's gonna have to be a really big t-shirt.

I can think of a shorter way to express this sentiment, but I'm not allowed to post it here. It's against TOS.

 

[Rossum]

Since it's deemed so bad, why don't they just outright ban tobacco like {OTHER STUFF} or the other host of schedule one drugs? Because of the booming tax revenue that tobacco generates for the government and because of the huge tobacco lobby giving millions to those abject crooks in washington.

Well, there's also the small matter that many millions would ignore and defy an outright ban on tobacco. Such a ban would create the biggest black market since prohibition.

I thought at the very most the fda would allow the vaping community alone, albeit with "sin" tax attached. Honestly even if there was a tax attached to juice that would make the prices comparable with cigarettes, I would still vape.

The FDA doesn't have the power to directly tax anything. You'll have to leave that to other government tentacles.

They aren't actually making it illegal but making it impossible to buy/sell/manufacture. I've only been vaping for 3 weeks and Was only smoking cigs for a couple years but my transition was so easy and I breathe so much better and it disgusts me that the government wants to take that away from others.

There's a lesson here somewhere, for those who choose to see it.

 

[Jman8]

Huh? There is no requirement for Congress to have any debate or take a vote on any regulations. The can if they want to, but they can also ignore 'em and just let 'em become effective.

Never said there was a requirement. Said it would be a good idea to get Congress involved at this point.

Under
 the
 Small 
Business 
Regulatory 
Enforcement
 Fairness
 Act 
(also 
known 
as 
the Congressional 
Review
 Act),
new
 final 
rules 
must 
be
 sent 
to 
Congress and 
the 
Government Accountability 
Office for 
review 
before 
they 
can 
take 
effect.
[...]
If
 the
 House 
and 
Senate 
pass 
a 
resolution
 of 
disapproval 
and 
the 
President
 signs 
it 
(or 
if 
both houses
 override 
a 
presidential
 veto),
the
rule
 becomes 
void
From:
http://www.federalregister.gov/uploads/2011/01/the_rulemaking_process.pdf

This supports why it would be good to take it to Congress.

 

[Jman8]

they are not going to regulate it out of existence,they are going to regulate it to the point
where combustible tobacco is the cheaper alternative.

I don't see this ever occurring. Perhaps with a roll your own tobacco option, maybe. Otherwise, I don't think so.