FDA Letters Read them and don't panic!

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wave42

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This is the Obama Adminstration; they are laying the groundwork for e-cig TAXING authority.

The Fed and state governments have a vested interest not only in keeping us in thrall of Big tobacco but also in making sure we don't engage in any activity they haven't pre-approved and in most cases, taxed. Judging from the behavior of the FDA and many state governments, they're perfectly happy keeping us smoking cigarettes or using Pharma developed, FDA approved NRTs. There will always be a Big tobacco and a Big Pharma... It would take them decades to build up Big E-Cigs to a level that would satisfy their ever increasing lust for tax revenue and campaign donations.
 

lonercom

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The Fed and state governments have a vested interest not only in keeping us in thrall of Big Tobacco but also in making sure we don't engage in any activity they haven't pre-approved and in most cases, taxed. Judging from the behavior of the FDA and many state governments, they're perfectly happy keeping us smoking cigarettes or using Pharma developed, FDA approved NRTs. There will always be a Big Tobacco and a Big Pharma... It would take them decades to build up Big E-Cigs to a level that would satisfy their ever increasing lust for tax revenue and campaign donations.

While I don't disagree with you about these things, the fact remains that the FDA Continues to express the same concern that they have from the beginning.

The language that they mention in their letter is specifically targeted at statements that either claim or imply that these devices are to be used to help quit smoking or curb nicotine cravings. All of which mean treat or mitigate an illness; Nicotine addiction.

They sent the same letters to Lipton regarding Lipton's Green Tea, they have also taken similar enforcement actions against Kelloggs and Quaker Oats for their cereals claims about cholesterol management.

If these merchants want to continue to market their devices in such a manner they have to apply for a drug license. On the other hand, if they remove statements about quitting or reducing smoking and perhaps add a disclaimer similar to what most hutritional supplements have in their ads the case might be closed.

The 2 exceptions would be; Johnson's Creek who recently failed an FDA inspection and the company that is selling diet vapes and ...... vapes. That guy should be taken out back and shot.

It's also important to remember that the Federal Trade Commission may be looking at the sales tactics of some of the less reputable (SE) companies and take separate enforcement actions.

If we want to sell as a smoking aid, we have to prove it to them. That's expensive. Otherwise quit advertising them as drug or delivery devices... IT ALL COMES DOWN TO MARKETING.

The FDA Takes this stance regularly and consistently. It's what put them in business. I am sure that we have all seen westerns with characters portraying "Snake Oil Salesmen" who all sold bottles of linament that cured everything under the sun. These were actual people selling products that were invariably ineffective and sometimes had dangerous side effects. Why should E-Cigs be treated any differently. They HAVE saved my life and I will always feel free to make that statement.

I will restate what I have said in several previous posts over the last 9 months. I think that a simple disclaimer on all marketing materials would suffice. I copied this one from a manufacturer of an omega 3 product. You can read the home page here.

THESE STATEMENTS HAVE NOT BEEN EVALUATED BY THE FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION. THESE PRODUCTS ARE NOT INTENDED TO DIAGNOSE, TREAT, CURE OR PREVENT ANY DISEASE.

These disclaimers are used on advertisements and websites for thousands of vitamin and nutritional substances.

If I were selling or manufacturing e-cigs mine might look like this:

The Lonercom Electronic Cigarette can be used as an alternative to tobacco products when and where using tobacco is illegal or inconvenient.* In fact, many users of the Lonercom Electronic Cigarette have found it to be more enjoyable than conventional tobacco products and now use the Lonercom Electronic Cigarette exclusively.**

* The Lonercom Electronic Cigarette contains various levels of nicotine and should not be used by PERSONS UNDER THE AGE OF 18, NON TOBACCO USERS, people with severe circulatory or respiratory illnesses, people with chronic heart disease, or women who are or may become pregnant in the near future. Please consult with your physician prior to use.

** THESE STATEMENTS HAVE NOT BEEN EVALUATED BY THE FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION. THESE PRODUCTS ARE NOT INTENDED TO DIAGNOSE, TREAT, CURE OR PREVENT ANY DISEASE.

PLEASE HANDLE RESPONSIBLY AND KEEP INACCESSABLE TO CHILDREN AND PETS

NICOTINE WARNING: Nicotine is a highly toxic chemical. Exposure to large quantities can result in serious illness or even death. Symptoms include nausea, rapid heart rate, and dizziness. If these symptopms occur consult your local Poison Control Center or seek medical attention immediately.

As far as tax policy, that is not the function of any government agency. Taxation rates are the jurisdiction of legislative bodies exclusively. Even thought I am a Republican, (actually, more libertarian) I would not be opposed to having my Cartomizers and Juice taxed. That issue won't be decided until long after the drug-delivery device issue is resolved. Whether or not someone sees a conspiracy in these actions, the fact is that the e-cig community is being treated the same way that other industries are treated.

Let me share my general life's philosophy, I feel it's important here:

Tomorrow marks the ninth anniversary of the day that a 102 story building fell on me. 343 of my friends, family and coworkers died. I was one of the few that survived. WHY ME? I don't know.

My only choice now is to take each day as it comes and deal with each challenge as it arises. Even if a building is falling on me I need to remain calm and tackle each challenge as it comes.


[/rant]
 
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Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah

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With Quaker and Lipton, like with General Mills last year, the FDA gave these companies a choice - EITHER remove the marketing claims OR submit a new drug application to prove them. With PV's, the FDA has NOT given anyone a choice - it's NDA or nothing...There have been no overtures by the FDA to allow manufacturers or distributors to simply sell these products as a novelty consumer good.

The FDA is consumed by the need to regulate these under the FDCA as drugs, not under the FSTCA as a tobacco-alternative. Until that question is settled in the courts, they really are pushing their luck, continuing to try to force these into a drug catagory, especially with Judge Leon's ruling stating they are a tobacco-alternative.
 

lonercom

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With Quaker and Lipton, like with General Mills last year, the FDA gave these companies a choice - EITHER remove the marketing claims OR submit a new drug application to prove them. With PV's, the FDA has NOT given anyone a choice - it's NDA or nothing...There have been no overtures by the FDA to allow manufacturers or distributors to simply sell these products as a novelty consumer good.

The FDA is consumed by the need to regulate these under the FDCA as drugs, not under the FSTCA as a tobacco-alternative. Until that question is settled in the courts, they really are pushing their luck, continuing to try to force these into a drug catagory, especially with Judge Leon's ruling stating they are a tobacco-alternative.

If the product were sold as a novelty consumer product, the FDA would have no jurisdiction. They are not going to give advice to this effect explicitly. It's not their job. Frankly, yesterdays actions open the door to this. Each of the companies have 15 working days to tell them how they are going to correct the issue. Here's the opportunity! I was editing my response while you were posting. If one of those distributors suggested the verbage above, we (the vaping community) would at least learn their response. However, the compromise train may have already left the station. If that's the case, we can only wait for the outcome of the SE vs FDA appeal but I don't think it ends there. Once the appeals court rules, I am certain that this roller coaster ride will have a stop at the US Supreme Court. Legal precedents are being set here and those fights don't end quickly. The E-cig industry has to find a way to survive until then. This might be a good first step.
 

Zapp and Roger

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I think both have very good points, my 2 cents is that the FDA is looking for support in the upcoming case. They are looking for evidence to bring that says "Look, even those in the industry agree it is a drug delivery, here we have them complying with FDCA regulations." I think the companies in question need to hold off any action or cease and desist until after the appeals process this month. Legally the question is still unanswered, or stated they are tobacco products at any rate, not under FDCA guidelines. It's shrewd to try to circumvent Jdg. Leon in this way.
 

rhsmitty

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I thought it was odd that the FDA qouted user comments and feedback as to thier experience with the ecig as proof that it is being used as a drug delivery device. Even if you include the above disclaimers, they very well may use personal commentary on a site against us. That is dirty pool I think. People should be able to post commentary on a product without it being used against the company.

Looks like the FDA is wanting to treat it all, including hardware as a new 'Drug' and therefore subject to the very expensive testing and human trial as any other drug. I think hardware with empty carts should not even be considered. They can be used to deliver any kind of vaporized liquid not just nicotine. Of couse, if a kit is sold with nic carts, then maybe you could say the whole kit is a drug delivery device but if no nic included, how can they say that ? Lets just sell the kits and hardware EMPTY.

As far as ejuice goes, should each vendor have to test thier mixture even if all are using FDA apporved PG/VG/NIC. Seems like if your using ALL USP ingredients, all is safe, right ? Do they want them to test each flavor too ? If that succeeds, NO ONE will sell juice.

If ejuice is no longer sold, we should still be able to buy PG,VG,NIC, & Flavor and just mix our own and add to our 'Non Drug Delivery' Personal Vaporizor.

<End Rant>
 

lonercom

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ECF Veteran
Given the date of the action and the 15 working day deadline for response, This only gets them publicity before the trial (thanks Vocaleck) hearing. These actions can't be used in that case bucause they are not related. As far as testing, every batch should be tested to ensure purity and insure that there has been no cross contamination. I think that's where the Johnson's creek issue was.

When a user comment is included in marketing material it is no longer a user comment it is an advertisement. Comments on message boards and forums would not qualify as ads because they are in a public forum.
 
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PlanetScribbles

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I use my Q1 tablet as an electronic photo frame. Just because something can be used for a purpose other than what is intended, doesn't define that product as an electronic photo frame. I'm sick of all the BS wordplay.
If some people use an e-cig as a cessation device, all play to them. But that doesn't make it a de facto 'cessation product' ffs. No more than a teaspoon and butane lighter combined are a drug delivery device.
 

kcinci

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Aug 22, 2010
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Tomorrow marks the ninth anniversary of the day that a 102 story building fell on me. 343 of my friends, family and coworkers died. I was one of the few that survived. WHY ME? I don't know.

My only choice now is to take each day as it comes and deal with each challenge as it arises. Even if a building is falling on me I need to remain calm and tackle each challenge as it comes. [/URL]

[/rant]

@lonercom First, while a simple thanks for your service and valor on 9/11 seems so inadequate and insufficient, thank you. Second, thanks for adding some real deliberation and contemplation to this debate as opposed to some knee jerk reaction like "it's Obama's fault - more taxes!". This can't be boiled doing to simple partisan issue. This is a complex issue with many concerns. Some concerns such as liquified drugs being added to e-juice is very concerning and is exactly what the FDA should be investigating. I would not be opposed to some sort of consumer protection here. Just as they regulated the usage of caffeine some "diet drugs". People were dying of heart attacks. At the same time - personal responsibility comes into play here, too, as in "I understand nicotine is addictive and toxic in high amounts. I'm choosing to put this in my body understanding these risks".

Again, thanks for your service and level headedness in this discussion.
 

Vocalek

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Given the date of the action and the 15 working day deadline for response, This only gets them publicity before the trial. These actions can't be used in that case bucause they are not related. As far as testing, every batch should be tested to ensure purity and insure that there has been no cross contamination. I think that's where the Johnson's creek issue was.

When a user comment is included in marketing material it is no longer a user comment it is an advertisement. Comments on message boards and forums would not qualify as ads because they are in a public forum.

Correction: What is coming up on September 23 is NOT A TRIAL.

The case has not yet begun. Smoking Everywhere (and NJOY) petitioned the court to issue an injunction against FDA seizing their products. They said that if everyone waited until the trial came up that they would be put out of business (irreparable harm). Judge Leon issued the injunction.

FDA appealed. It is the usual practice whenever any lower court decision of any type (trial verdict, issuing an injunction, etc.) the appeals court automatically issues a "stay of execution." So that's what happened. The appeals court automatically issued a stay, which temporarily excused FDA from complying with the injunction pending the outcome of the appeal.

The next thing that happens in the appeals process is that both sides submit legal briefs to the court pointing out portions of the law and making the argument why the court should find in their favor. That has been done. There have also been some "Amicus" briefs filed. These are "Friend of the Court" briefs offered for either the plaintiff or the defendent. Again, these must argue points of law.

Next is the hearing of oral arguments. That is what is scheduled for September 23. The attorneys for each side will make a speech in front of a 3-judge panel. The judges may ask the attorneys questions, but there will be no evidence presented, no witnesses called, and no jury. The job of the 3-judge panel is not to decide the merits of the case itself, but to confine itself to ruling on whether the lower court made a correct decision under the law. In other words, was Judge Leon operating properly under the law when he issued the injunction against the FDA seizing products?

After the oral arguments, the 3-judge panel goes off to ponder and discuss the appeal. After several months, they will issue a ruling. We don't expect that to happen until January.

Meanwhile, the entire trial process is put on hold. If the losing party for the appeal decides to pursue this to the Supreme Court, it could take years and years before the actual trial is begun.

So given that legal background, I'd have to say that this whole thing was a PR stunt on the part of the FDA to gain public approval for their action in "protecting the public" from these dangerous products.

BTW: Judge Leon disagreed with the concept that user comments convey the intent of the seller. Here is what he said:

Here, the overwhelming sum of Smoking Everywhere's promotional material is aimed, not toward preventing, mitigating, or treating nicotine addiction and the effects of withdrawal, but toward encouraging nicotine use.
[SNIP]
FDA references only three claims made in Smoking Everywhere's literature: (l) electronic cigarettes offer "smokers a chance of smoking in a much healthier way," (2) electronic cigarettes are "a great alternative to help ... stop smoking real cigarettes," and (3) "I've been smoking real cigarettes for over 20 years and really wanted to stop ... I've been using it for 3 weeks now and feel great." (ARDET 49,21; FDA Opposition [#14] at 21). The latter two claims are customer testimonials posted on the Smoking Everywhere website. None of these claims, on their face, suggests an objective intent to treat nicotine addiction and withdrawal. At best, these claims demonstrate that Smoking Everywhere markets its electronic cigarettes as an alternative-albeit a healthier alternative-to traditional cigarettes. IS FDA does not point to any representation by Smoking Everywhere that its product is intended to help wean smokers off of nicotine. Nor does FDA identify any product labeling that includes instructions about how to overcome nicotine addiction using electronic cigarettes. The clear import of Smoking Everywhere's advertising is that it wants consumers to use its electronic cigarettes for the same recreational purposes and with the same frequency as traditional cigarettes. Thus, FDA's finding that the electronic cigarettes marketed by Smoking Everywhere appear to 15 To the extent that smoking cessation is a therapeutic claim distinct from the treatment of nicotine addiction and withdrawal, the Court is aware that the two customer testimonials referenced above suggest that electronic cigarettes are intended for smoking cessation, ifnot for treating nicotine dependence (as suggested by FDA). Given Smoking Everywhere's express disclaimer that its electronic cigarettes are not intended as a smoking cessation device, (AR DET 1), and given the overwhelming evidence in the record that its electronic cigarettes are intended merely as a recreational alternative to traditional cigarettes (and not necessarily as a therapeutic replacement for traditional cigarettes), the Court concludes that the two testimonials cited by FDA are not alone sufficient to support a finding that the product appears to be intended to help customers quit smoking. In this respect, Smoking Everywhere's electronic cigarettes are different from other nicotine products regulated by FDA that bear no similarity to traditional tobacco products and make express therapeutic claims.

I would recommend that every vendor with a web site (not just those who received letters) read this document. It contains the blue print for what you can and cannot say about your products and remain outside the jurisdiction of the FDCA. http://www.casaa.org/files/SE-vs-FDA-Opinion.pdf
 

lonercom

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@Vocalek: I couldn't agree more. Until Judge Leon's ruling is settled, the FDA is going to continue to act in the same manner. Their actions prove that point exactly.

I have previously posted similar information regarding the suit and it's processes. Unfortunately, most folks think that Judge Leon's rulings are still in effect and that it covers all E-Cigs. We know that it is only related to SE and NJOY.

What this lawsuit will do to benefit or hurt the E-cig industry as a whole is set a precedent for other legal proceedings to reference. I'm sure that you will agree that this is going to be a long journey.

The points that I find most telling are:

Based on our review of the labeling for the “Gamucci products,” which includes your Internet website...

According to your website...

Your website offers these products as an aid to help smokers quit smoking...

As presently labeled and promoted, these *****products violate provisions of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (the Act).

The letters go on to cite specific comments.

Also the letters were sent from
Sincerely,
/Michael M. Levy, Jr./
Michael M. Levy, Jr., Esq.
Director, Division of New Drugs and Labeling Compliance
Office of Compliance
Center for Drug Evaluation and Research

In reading the story from Reuters, Mr. Levy is quoted as saying:
The action only concerns the five companies that got warning letters, but Levy said FDA will continue to evaluate the marketers of e-cigarettes on a case-by-case basis.

"We have not made a decision to remove all e-cigarettes from the market," Levy said.

On WebMD he is quoted:
These are not the only companies marketing e-cigarettes in the U.S. Levy hinted that FDA concerns are not limited to the companies that today received warning letters, but said the FDA is not planning further actions.

From the Wall Street Journal:
Michael Levy, director of labeling compliance for FDA's drug division, said the agency would wait to see what the company responses were before deciding what to do next. However, he said the FDA believes the products containing tadalafil and rimonabant should be pulled from the U.S. market.

The agency could act to remove e-cigarettes from the market, but it would likely involve a court fight.

"We have not made a decision to remove all e-cigarettes from the market," Levy said.

From the LA Times:
Although some manufacturers and consumers fear that the agency is planning to ban the products, the agency is "interested in finding out whether e-cigarettes can be proven safe and effective," Michael Levy, director of the FDA's division of new drugs and labeling compliance, said in a news conference.

All were warned that, because their products are marketed as stop-smoking aids, the companies must obtain preapproval by the FDA.

This was disturbing…
The letter was addressed to Matt Salmon, president of the association. In a telephone interview, however, Salmon said that he resigned nine months ago and that, as far as he knows, the group has disbanded.

And from AP

Summary Box: FDA warns e-cigarette companies
By The Associated Press (AP) – 21 hours ago

E-CIGARETTES: They look like the real thing but don't contain tobacco. The battery-powered devices are plastic and metal devices that heat a liquid nicotine solution in a disposable cartridge, creating vapor that users inhale.

TAKING ACTION: The Food and Drug Administration sent warning letters to five companies, saying they are violating federal laws by making unsubstantiated claims about the product and for poor manufacturing practices.

REGULATION: The FDA told the Electronic Cigarette Association in a letter that the actions against the companies were not meant to be seen as a larger effort to ban e-cigarettes

This all looks pretty above board to me. Quit saying or implying that these will help quit smoking or prove it.
 
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Andtyler2

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The 2 exceptions would be; Johnson's Creek who recently failed an FDA inspection and the company that is selling diet vapes and ...... vapes. That guy should be taken out back and shot.

I agree with you about the diet/...... vapes. A little common sense . . .
As for JC, I'm waiting for them to weigh in here or elsewhere. According to the letter the FDA sent JC, that "failed inspection" wasn't particularly recent; it took place a year ago.

From the FDA:

Additionally, during our September 1-25, 2009, inspection of your manufacturing facility, . . . investigator(s) from the FDA identified significant violations of Current Good Manufacturing Practice (cGMP) regulations for Finished Pharmaceuticals . . .​
Hard to believe the FDA would sit on that information for a year before sending them a formal warning. Must be more to the story?

Blessings and peace to you tomorrow

Andi
 

rothenbj

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Lonercom, unfortunately I have finished two cereals I had last week, I think one was Cheerios. Both still stated that they can reduce cholesterol. Apparently the FDA hasn't had time to send warning letters out to them with all the time they're spending on E cigs. Wait, they sent warning letters out months ago, I guess Kellogg decided not to listen.
 

Vicks Vap-oh-Yeah

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Additionally, during our September 1-25, 2009, inspection of your manufacturing facility, . . . investigator(s) from the FDA identified significant violations of Current Good Manufacturing Practice (cGMP) regulations for Finished Pharmaceuticals . . .​
Hard to believe the FDA would sit on that information for a year before sending them a formal warning. Must be more to the story?

Blessings and peace to you tomorrow

Andi

Actually, it's not surprising in the least that the FDA would wait until now to issue their warning letter...they were waiting for the press to become favorable to the PV again, and then they issued their warnings and their press release to tell the world how 'wonderful a regulatory body' they are in protecting the public health...

Image...spin...publicity stunts. The bread and butter of our Government.
 

kristin

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The FDA is claiming that e-cigarettes are being advertized as a treatment for disease because of smoking cessation claims, however, smoking cessation is NOT the same as nicotine cessation.

If someone comments that they quit smoking and use snus or Orbs instead, does that make those tobacco products a drug treatment for nicotine addiction? No, because the product continues nicotine use. Smoking is a BEHAVIOR, not a disease. The disease is nicotine addiction and none of these companies (nor the consumer testimonials) claimed to treat nicotine addiction.

Additionally, Johnson Creek's alleged violations are violations for PHARMACEUTICAL REGULATIONS. If Johnson Creek is selling tobacco products and NOT drug delivery device liquids, there may have been no violations at all. Note that they had no comments on cleanliness/sanitation - just practice standards for pharmaceutical drugs.

I doubt tobacco companies have batch testing & QC standards as strict or the same as those for drug companies.
 
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bassnut

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For Johnson Creek their violation could be merely procedural and not tainted product.
If anybody has worked with a quality control standard such as AS9100 (I don't know what the FDA uses) there are a lot of procedures that need to be followed to the letter. Everything needs to be documented and traceable. All ingredients need to be certified to a standard as do probably the containers. These certifications need to be kept on file. Lot # etc.
Internal audits (self audits) need to be carried out routinely and documented to check that the company is doing what it says it doing in their quality control handbook. All "i"s dotted and all "t"s crossed.
The FDA can send an auditor to check. If you violate a procedure you get written up and they can be as strict and picky as they want to be.
 
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