Fda news release

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grimmer255

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I dont know these articles are not showing the real facts....there are no comparisons between regualar cigarettes and the e-cigs.....also they need to show comparisons of ecigs vs. other NRT products. 4000 chemicals and 30 plus carcinogens in cigarettes and in ppm vs 5 carcinogens ppb and 5-15 chemicals in ecigs. then do the same with other NRT products and according to the FDA report the ecigs have less chemicals and carcinogens than NRT products (page 4 last paragraph).
 
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Our House

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Idea:

This isn't my forte, but maybe someone (like TheIllustratedMan) would be interested in exposing the FDA's fanaticism to the public by using Wikipedia's Electronic Cigarette page. It looks like the page has already been updated to include yesterday's news. Nothing would be better than having that news repudiated right on the Wiki page with legitimate footnotes containing links to the actual facts.

Wikipedia is great for public exposure. I remember researching both ecigs and PG on there before buying my first kit.
 

LaceyUnderall

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Idea:

This isn't my forte, but maybe someone (like TheIllustratedMan) would be interested in exposing the FDA's fanaticism to the public by using Wikipedia's Electronic Cigarette page. It looks like the page has already been updated to include yesterday's news. Nothing would be better than having that news repudiated right on the Wiki page with legitimate footnotes containing links to the actual facts.

Wikipedia is great for public exposure. I remember researching both ecigs and PG on there before buying my first kit.

This is a fantastic idea... I will see if James can do something about it... but anyone who can SHOULD. :thumb:
 

grimmer255

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I dont get it why dont they just use senthetic nicotine (lobeline).

Check this out:

Lobeline: total synthesis and derivitization
Research Page: (-) Lobeline: total synthesis and derivitization
..."Initial Award Abstract
It is widely understood that quitting smoking is a very difficult and
often unsuccessful endeavor for millions of Americans. While the
psychological aspects of altering ones lifestyle pose significant
barriers to ?kicking the habit?, the intense physiological dependence
of nicotine is also directly responsible for relapse. Lobeline is a
natural product known to mimic the effect of nicotine by interacting
directly with nicotine receptors.

Extracts of lobeline have been formulated and widely used to treat
nicotine withdrawal. Furthermore, the natural product is an effective
treatment for respiratory ailments such as asthma, bronchitis,
pneumonia, and whooping cough..."


Here's 2 rat studies:

Lobeline inhibits nicotine-evoked [3H]dopamine overflow from rat
striatal slices and nicotine-evoked 86Rb+ efflux from thalamic
synaptosomes
ScienceDirect - Neuropharmacology : Lobeline inhibits nicotine-evoked [3H]dopamine overflow from rat striatal slices and nicotine-evoked 86Rb+ efflux from thalamic synaptosomes

Lobeline and Nicotine Evoke [3H]Overflow from Rat Striatal Slices
Preloaded with [3H]Dopamine: Differential Inhibition of Synaptosomal
and Vesicular [3H]Dopamine Uptake1
Lobeline and Nicotine Evoke [3H]Overflow from Rat Striatal Slices Preloaded with [3H]Dopamine: Differential Inhibition of Synaptosomal and Vesicular [3H]Dopamine Uptake -- Teng et al. 280 (3): 1432 -- Journal of Pharmacology And Experimental Therapeu


However, the real prize inside libeline might be it's ability to be
used in the treatment of drug addiction, specifically methamphetimine
addiction.
 

AVITWeb

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Good luck, they're armed with the "it's going to kill you" angle now. So any ill-effects they can say you would have gotten anyway had you pursued your course of action (ie. vaping). Of course, I've already proven that they're full of guff, but that's another story...

They can only have one gun for this fight....Big Tobacco...
Funny how there are thousands of carcinogens in that! And they MIGHT have found one....ONE???
Tobacco needs to be sole kid on the block, otherwise they won't make their billions and billions and billions.

I still see .... pipes for sale....hello...drug delivery device....
 

LaceyUnderall

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They can only have one gun for this fight....Big Tobacco...
Funny how there are thousands of carcinogens in that! And they MIGHT have found one....ONE???
Tobacco needs to be sole kid on the block, otherwise they won't make their billions and billions and billions.

I still see .... pipes for sale....hello...drug delivery device....

Well... and while I thought it was big tobacco... and granted, they certainly don't want to see us succeed (they want to come out with their own as soon as the FDA stops us)... it is pharmaceutical who is after us right now.

Pharmaceutical pays the bills at the FDA. They pay the bills for the public health organizations. They tell you what you can and cannot do to and with your body by ensuring that now new products get onto the market that are in direct competition with theirs. Why do you think they are ...... about holistic medicines, herbal supplements etc?

So while the pharm has it out for us now, tobacco is sitting back and waiting for the gates to open up.
 

Tori

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As I sit here sipping my coffee and vaping on my 510, reading this thread after watching the broadcast about banning ecigs on the Today show, I ponder.... isnt that harmful crap they found in those pre-filled crappy carts also in analogs? Along with thousands of other known carcinogens... much easier for kids to get ahold of as they dont need a credit card? Yuppers!! If we are inhaling toxic ingredients wouldn't we be feeling some kind of negative side effects from the toxins? I sure did with analogs.... but since being off them I feel great!! I believe it all boils down to the government wanting a piece of the ecig pie... they want to tax it like they have with analogs. TRUE we should know exactly what is in our juice but c'mon lol... this is total BS
 

TheIllustratedMan

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They can only have one gun for this fight....Big Tobacco...
Funny how there are thousands of carcinogens in that! And they MIGHT have found one....ONE???
Tobacco needs to be sole kid on the block, otherwise they won't make their billions and billions and billions.

I still see .... pipes for sale....hello...drug delivery device....

I know, but that's not a productive area of conversation. Before yesterday, we needed to focus on getting testing done and getting the product approved. Since the FDA jumped the gun, we need to focus on refuting their claims and advancing the discussion with scientific fact. Note that the "marketing toward children" argument was ignored by me in my research, since it is entirely subjective.
Please, let's stay completely objective and use fact to argue our case, not flimsy comparisons that can easily be dismissed as "not relevant".
 

LaceyUnderall

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I know, but that's not a productive area of conversation. Before yesterday, we needed to focus on getting testing done and getting the product approved. Since the FDA jumped the gun, we need to focus on refuting their claims and advancing the discussion with scientific fact. Note that the "marketing toward children" argument was ignored by me in my research, since it is entirely subjective.
Please, let's stay completely objective and use fact to argue our case, not flimsy comparisons that can easily be dismissed as "not relevant".

And thus far... the most interesting thing that has come out is that most studies are done in parts per billion and they did this one on parts per million.

My guess is that they did the study in parts per million, same as cigarettes, and found NOTHING. Had to go back and do it again in the billions. And even what they found proved them to be A. Safer than tobacco cigarettes and B. Having the same stuff as the NRT's. So now, they have this study that they funded that proves the product is as safe as the NRT's (if not safer)... now what? We withhold it for awhile until we can put an argument together that will take the focus off our findings.

IMHO, that's how we bring the "for the children" argument in. Show the facts as you have noted, regarding the issues with the testing and results and then discuss why they would need to hide these issues with an argument meant to scare instead of inform.
 
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Sar

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... I am currently working on a full rebuttal for every single syllable the FDA spewed in their press release today.
More to come soon. Any help is appreciated.


That is an excellent idea. Perhaps some type of wiki would work to get that going -- that way other people could contribute writing too.

It would be also great to recreate the paper that FDA created, but instead of using Nicotrol to compare PVs with, we could compare it to analog cigarettes as ladyraj suggested (quote is below). The results would be rather incredible. Analogs have been studied extensively (all those lawsuits against tobacco companies), so there must be tons of research available online to pull the numbers from.


The methodology decided upon by the FDA when constructing the e-cig study was flawed from the beginning. When formulating an hypothesis, all variables should be considered that may impact the topic under study. All pieces of the puzzle are required to complete the task.

The FDA chose to pair the e-cig with the Nicotrol product designed to be a cessation device. The e-cig is a smoking alternative, not a cessation device. It is obvious that NRT, which produces no vapor/smoke, will have less additives and constituents than a smoking alternative. So what exactly was the point of the study? NRT marketing???:rolleyes:

A more informative and valuable analysis would include the variable that is the alternative to the e-cig. One has to ask why wasn't tobacco smoking included? The benefits of the e-cig when compared to cigarettes would be readily obvious. After all, the data points and measures were all tobacco specific and adding cigarettes would be an easy task. Further, a continuum of harm could have been "proved" that would enable the populace to make informed choices of acceptable levels of risk.

I submit the question to ask the FDA is why time and money was wasted to measure apples to oranges rather than a straight-forward analysis of the types of apple and which was healthier. :confused:
 

TheIllustratedMan

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Oh, I'm on top of this.

Also, Lacey, please please please don't engage in the "conspiracy" "money trail" talk. As much as you can pull up a chart and say that this guy pays that guy who pays that guy who pays that guy who is putting out this press release, the general public views that as nonsense. The FDA is a government organization put in place to protect the consumer, and therefore must be looking out for the public's best interests.
When you can take a report from them and refute it using scientific evidence, some from other government agencies, it's a lot harder to dismiss as "tinfoil hat syndrome".
All I'm saying is that now is the time to get serious and put our best face forward, and keep our personal beliefs to ourselves. We have scientific evidence, and that's all that's going to matter.

...

I'm not trying to be an ..., so please don't take me that way. :D
 

LaceyUnderall

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I'm not trying to be an ..., so please don't take me that way. :D

Nope... not an .... Just discussion happening here. Points to be made that can't be made in the "real" arena as you have suggested. It's all good. :wub:

Edit: This will be fought in a logical, sensible manner. That alone will be shocking enough to the general public LOL.
 

grimmer255

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I have to agree when need to show proof.....if SE and NJoy have that crap in there eliquid what about the rest of the companies. How about the companies in the UK? I know some make there own eliquid. Plus JC here in US makes there own. So why not use there liquid as well in these test. I know JC switched to synthetic nicotine to counter these attacks on tobacco extracted nicotine liquids.
Who can fund these test? These tests cost thousands of dollars.
 
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