FDA Proposed regulation is available

[AgentAnia]

I'm might have too much faith but they FDA would lose the fight in court trying to classify an atty/tank/battery is a tobacco product. They're going to have their hands full enough as it is just with the nic part of it. I'm confident hardware simply won't be touched. It's not necessary to do it. Beyond a random battery fire (which happens all the time with other products like laptops), they pose no health hazard unless used improperly.

This process will definitely be a pick and choose the correct battles. And there's only one. The nic. The industry starts and stops there except for the few that go zero nic.

Maybe I don't have *enough* faith, but let's skip to the bottom line: Having to comply w/ proposed FDA regulations will most probably drive many small manufacturers out of business. The same result would obtain if FDA were to include "components" in certain circumstances as tobacco products and small businesses might choose to go out of business rather than incur costs of fighting FDA in court.

Also don't forget that the costs of complying will inevitably be passed on to the consumer by those manufacturers staying in production.

 

[Stosh]

Seems everyone is celebrating the regulations to ban the sale of e-cigs to minors, both in person and via the internet. Makes sense if you consider the total ban for minors of regular cigarettes, alcohol, illegal drugs, prescription drug abuse, underage driving, youth gangs and graffiti markers to be a rousing success.

With the campaigns for youth regarding cigarettes, it makes me wonder how many are smoking to "look cool" and how many are self medicating.

Perhaps if we gave high school students a cup of coffee and an e-cig every morning, they would be awake enough, alert enough, able to concentrate (without ADHD drugs) enough to actually learn something. I know, it would never happen, but it would make for a very interesting long term study.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

In my estimation the precautions and most downsides regarding e-liquid preparation fall way short of those for storing and preparing food.

 

[BREWINZ]

wait... Vape Shops would be bared from letting people try eliquids?!?!

...?!

That's the main reason I buy liquids from shops vs the internet

Couldn't they charge like $1 as a "sample cost" to get around that? Banning free samples seems like a silly thing to do. I can walk into a liquor store and try free wine...

 

[soba1]

From what I read/ understood I see this as worse case scenario. My logic being if the FDA proposed today to ban all ecigs for example everyone who benefits would be outraged and act. This proposal seems reasonable; prohibiting sales to minors, labeling ingredients and appropriate warnings. Personally I almost think these sound like good ideas as will most people so little to no action will be taken. Then I remember the expression "giving someone an inch and they take a mile" or better said:

"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once.

Slavery has so frightful an aspect to men accustomed to freedom that it must steal in upon them by degrees and must disguise itself in a thousand shapes in order to be received."

David Hume [1711-1776]

Can you tell I'm skeptical of government involvement on anything?

I don't think they are stupid enough to outright ban them or severly limit.
We the people need our pacifiers; with all the crap they are trying to pull (govt)

 

[ClippinWings]

Possibly, but they could just charge you $0.01 and be on the sunny side of the law. The fact that there's a Take a Penny dish right by where you pay for that? Not their problem.

Or they could do it free if they put out no-nic liquids. Since nic does alter flavor and throat hit, I'd prefer the $0.01 charge to try liquids.

Ah good call... I'm thinking this entire thing is going to boil down to Nic.

The devices can be sold under other pretenses.

 

[MorpheusPA]

In my estimation the precautions and most downsides regarding e-liquid preparation fall way short of those for storing and preparing food.

So far, the restrictions we can see are following that. Things like requiring freezer storage would be unreasonable; e-liquids just don't require it the way, say, ice cream does.

I'm still saying there could be some surprises in there and there's no way anybody has thoroughly analyzed this document yet...it's huge.

 

[Kent C]

"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once.

Slavery has so frightful an aspect to men accustomed to freedom that it must steal in upon them by degrees and must disguise itself in a thousand shapes in order to be received."

David Hume [1711-1776]

Odd thing about these types of truths.... individualists use them as warnings, collectivists use them as prescriptions for action. This could just as easily been authored by Saul Alinsky.

 

[Jman8]

My spin matches (I think) MorpheusPA's. These regulations are far more reasonable than was anticipated (by vaping community). I do think Dr. Siegel's blog covers the good, bad and ugly quite well. And IMO, the ugly is not a disaster unless you truly think the worse about any / all regulations. SE items are going to be tricky going forward, but I just don't see it as disastrous.

If all we are prattling on about from this point forward is the challenges and troubles from meeting SE requirements, then I would think this is a very good day for the vaping community. So many here stocked up on items prior to April 2013, anticipating the worst. Things like ban on all flavors, ban on internet sales, and ban on all gear was seen as a given with this federal department and existence of tobacco act. IMHO, all those worry warts look foolish right about now.

And yet, given the nature of the beast, I realize all those items are still on the table. You could take FDA off the map. Completely. Bye bye FDA. And still, you'd have media, politicians, ANTZ, BP, ex-smoking haters (some of who are vapers) and there will likely be an ongoing battle (forever and ever) on the items FDA didn't go after in this release of regulations.

Our fight isn't over, by a long shot, but those who kept saying FDA would ban this and that, have lost a little credibility. My very first post/thread on ECF addressed this point (in early 2013) and right about now, I'm feeling redeemed and glad to be on the side where zealous panic wasn't allowed to rule my thinking.

 

[standingwave]

To the anti-government crowd, I'll ask: apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh-water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Brought peace?

 

[zapped]

Odd thing about these types of truths.... individualists use them as warnings, collectivists use them as prescriptions for action. This could just as easily been authored by Saul Alinsky.

Hitler is quoted as saying pretty much the exact same thing.

 

[AgentAnia]

I don't think they are stupid enough to outright ban them or severly limit.
We the people need our pacifiers; with all the crap they are trying to pull (govt)

Never underestimate the forces that drive fanaticism and ideology. (I think we're all agreed that FDA is *not* producing science-based regulations, aren't we?)

 

[zapped]

My spin matches (I think) MorpheusPA's. These regulations are far more reasonable than was anticipated (by vaping community). I do think Dr. Siegel's blog covers the good, bad and ugly quite well. And IMO, the ugly is not a disaster unless you truly think the worse about any / all regulations. SE items are going to be tricky going forward, but I just don't see it as disastrous.

If all we are prattling on about from this point forward is the challenges and troubles from meeting SE requirements, then I would think this is a very good day for the vaping community. So many here stocked up on items prior to April 2013, anticipating the worst. Things like ban on all flavors, ban on internet sales, and ban on all gear was seen as a given with this federal department and existence of tobacco act. IMHO, all those worry warts look foolish right about now.

And yet, given the nature of the beast, I realize all those items are still on the table. You could take FDA off the map. Completely. Bye bye FDA. And still, you'd have media, politicians, ANTZ, BP, ex-smoking haters (some of who are vapers) and there will likely be an ongoing battle (forever and ever) on the items FDA didn't go after in this release of regulations.

Our fight isn't over, by a long shot, but those who kept saying FDA would ban this and that, have lost a little credibility. My very first post/thread on ECF addressed this point (in early 2013) and right about now, I'm feeling redeemed and glad to be on the side where zealous panic wasn't allowed to rule my thinking.

So youre patting yourself on the back for lacking caution and common sense? ALWAYS better to be safe than sorry.

 

[krawhitham]

Couldn't they charge like $1 as a "sample cost" to get around that? Banning free samples seems like a silly thing to do. I can walk into a liquor store and try free wine...

In no liquor store I have ever been in have they offered free samples and I've been in my fair share of liquor stores

 

[aubergine]

!!Wait.!! According to Dr Siegal (http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/2014/04/fdas-proposed-electronic-cigarette.html) :

"3. The regulations require pre-approval or substantial equivalence determinations of almost all existing electronic cigarette products.

This provision is going to wreak havoc with the industry. The agency is determined that it cannot extend the grandfather date beyond 2007. This means that any product not on the market as of 2007 (which includes almost all electronic cigarette products) must either obtain a new product approval or a substantial equivalence determination. Given the snail's pace at which the FDA has processed cigarette substantial equivalence determinations, this could result in a literal quagmire of pending applications for the more than 250 brands of e-cigarettes currently on the market."

The provisions become effective 30 days after the bill is passed. Does this mean that all e-cig products manufactured after 2007 have to be approved, item by item, before they are sold?

That would effectively shut everything down.

???

 

[BREWINZ]

In no liquor store I have ever been in have they offered free samples and I've been in my fair share of liquor stores

Maybe they don't do it in Ohio. They do in MA. I assure you. I've even sampled beer.

 

[Oliver]

Yes, that's exactly what it means.

You'll note there's some discussion asking for comment on how a streamlined pre-authorization process might be achieved, but there's also some important background here: the FDA has over 4000 applications for substantially equivalent products awaiting their decision. They've managed to process 20.

 

[MorpheusPA]

My spin matches (I think) MorpheusPA's. These regulations are far more reasonable than was anticipated (by vaping community). I do think Dr. Siegel's blog covers the good, bad and ugly quite well. And IMO, the ugly is not a disaster unless you truly think the worse about any / all regulations. SE items are going to be tricky going forward, but I just don't see it as disastrous.

Yep, that's pretty much my view.

Let's face it. It's always been obvious that this does fall under the FDA's umbrella.

They chose a pretty light hand, on the surface of it. Far lighter than the cigarette industry gets, and far lighter than I expected. It wouldn't have been unreasonable to ban sales of everything over 36 mg/ml immediately.

There are potential problems, with the approval being the primary one that I see at this point. If that turns out to be the sticking point, then they do have a fight on their hands from me and, I would hope, you.

If all we are prattling on about from this point forward is the challenges and troubles from meeting SE requirements, then I would think this is a very good day for the vaping community. So many here stocked up on items prior to April 2013, anticipating the worst. Things like ban on all flavors, ban on internet sales, and ban on all gear was seen as a given with this federal department and existence of tobacco act. IMHO, all those worry warts look foolish right about now.

An ounce of prevention and all that. I have enough nic concentrate to go for a very long time, as well as other stuff. It's nothing that won't keep for its expected usage span--and the only reason I have a lot of PG and VG on-hand is because it's cheaper in bulk. I had no worries of that, flavorings, Kanthal wire, or silica wick being banned. Nor, of course, batteries as they're used in far too many places.

And yet, given the nature of the beast, I realize all those items are still on the table. You could take FDA off the map. Completely. Bye bye FDA. And still, you'd have media, politicians, ANTZ, BP, ex-smoking haters (some of who are vapers) and there will likely be an ongoing battle (forever and ever) on the items FDA didn't go after in this release of regulations.

Utterly agreed. On the up side, the FDA gave them absolutely no ammunition with this, but did give the vapers a LOT of ammo. Now, falling under the FDA's umbrella, we can argue that they obviously see no great issue with this as they didn't choose harsh restrictions, nor an outright ban.

Our fight isn't over, by a long shot, but those who kept saying FDA would ban this and that, have lost a little credibility. My very first post/thread on ECF addressed this point (in early 2013) and right about now, I'm feeling redeemed and glad to be on the side where zealous panic wasn't allowed to rule my thinking.

Except for that 2 liters of nic concentrate in my freezer... Oh, who am I kidding, I would have bought it anyway.

 

[Stosh]

The most amazing line in the whole paper...

Although the public health impact of e-cigarettes is unknown, FDA believes e-cigarettes
that contain nicotine derived from tobacco should be deemed to be tobacco products.....

We don't know, so ergo it must be deemed harmful until proven otherwise....

 

[Bob Chill]

Maybe they don't do it in Ohio. They do in MA. I assure you. I've even sampled beer.

OH has a weird law that under no circumstances can alcohol be given away free. I used to travel there regularly for business. The hotel we stayed in had a self serve keg from 4-7pm. There was a cup that said "Drafts are dime. Honor policy". I thought it was a joke of sorts so I talked to an employee. They said it's their way around the law and they could care less if you paid or not. LOL