FDA Shadow Panel Created and Web Site Established- Yuck

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rothenbj

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Hopefully, this hasn't been started elsewhere, but I haven't seen it.

Dr Siegel et al, have established a separate panel to offer a different direction than our friends in the FDA

Shadow Panel Announcement


I thought Dr Siegel was smarter than this, but it appears that he has aligned himself with a fine bunch of "scientific" radicals. Visit the Recommendations on the new Web Site to get a feel of the various approaches established by each member. I almost wish I hadn't read it. :(:shock::-x
 

CJsKee

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O, I know...it just made me sick when I saw that. He has aligned himself with some of the worse liars in the evil axis. About the only thing I respect about Siegel is his stance on harm reduction. Not so much on the rest.

Do you read the comments on his blog, rothenbj? I think I've learned more from them than from the Doc.
 

rothenbj

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O, I know...it just made me sick when I saw that. He has aligned himself with some of the worse liars in the evil axis. About the only thing I respect about Siegel is his stance on harm reduction. Not so much on the rest.

Do you read the comments on his blog, rothenbj? I think I've learned more from them than from the Doc.

Yes, he certainly has a massive negative following, but compared to the rest of the anti-group, he at least appears to understand harm reduction. I get angry every time I consider that I was led to believe smokeless tobacco was as bad as smoking years ago.

Had it not been for this forum and the internet, I never would have found Swedish snus. How many pack years could have been eliminated if I had known then what I know now. The only solace that I have is that perhaps I would have not had the success I had with only the snus. The E-cig gave me the ability to have a very effective hand to mouth device that works when I feel I need it. Plus I love the flavor that makes me forget the taste of tobacco smoke.
 

D103

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Went to their website and read their recommendations....this gives you one glimpse into the Huge Quagmire that awaits, even if the FDA ends up classifying e-cigs as a tobacco product. You think we have propaganda and misinformation going on now...wait until they begin all the myriad of studies required to dissect, identify, classify, calculate, estimate, distill, disseminate, weigh, measure, weigh again, boil, steam, vaporize, atomize, nebulize, etc. etc. This whole process will go on (with fighting and corruption) for years.......I just hope that some form of e-cigs remain on the market while all the scientists, antis, politicians, moralists and crusaders have their 'armageddon.'
 

bassnut

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Not so fast!
This might actually be a good thing!
I think this might be exactly where we want Dr. Siegle to be.

Several of the shadow panelists have been critical of the early efforts and priorities of the FDA agency on tobacco, which they see as misguided. For instance, Dr. Siegel has raised questions about the FDA's aggressive opposition to the electronic cigarette in contrast to its silence on Marlboro and other popular cigarette brands which have been recognized as lethal since the 1964 Surgeon General's report and yet remain unchallenged on the marketplace. Dr. Siegel and Dr. Blum have also pointed to conflicts of interest of panel members. The chair of the panel, Dr. Jonathan Samet, has in the past aided the tobacco industry in setting the agenda for research on secondhand smoke. Other panelists have competing interests by currently receiving pharmaceutical funding. The pharmaceutical industry stands to gain if the tobacco industry's so-called reduced harm nicotine products, such as non-combustible smokeless tobacco, are not permitted to compete with its higher-priced medications as aids in smoking cessation.
 
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rothenbj

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bassnut, not sure whether you read some of the individual opinions-

"Martin Pion: With the increasing promotion of electronic cigarettes it is important to determine objectively if they are safer than regular cigarettes, and then require appropriate labeling. Even if the evidence concludes that they pose no health risk to exposed non-smokers, they should still not be allowed wherever smoking conventional cigarettes is prohibited. To do otherwise would create serious smoke-free air enforcement problems."

"James Repace: The most important new item for FDA to address (I have already submitted this comment to FDA) is E-Cigarette research and regulation. I have outlined a research program to investigate the claims that E-cigarettes can be smoked anywhere, including areas where tobacco smoking is currently banned, including aircraft cabins. It is obvious that E-cigarettes emit an aerosol when puffed. Aerosol in the outdoor air (PM2.5) is a regulated air pollutant with no known threshold for acute and chronic effects on the cardiovascular system. It may also contain ultrafine particles, and does contain VOCs of various sorts, including nicotine, which is a known toxin. It is also known that air pollution affects people differently depending upon their health status and sensitivity. The hypothesis being advanced by proponents is that there are no acute or chronic health effects or air pollution impacts if these devices are used in currently smoke-free areas. So a research program would start by collecting multiple samples of each of the 2 dozen or so brands currently being marketed and analyzing the E-liquids in them. Next, multiple tests would be run on the devices when they are smoked under controlled circumstances in an experimental chamber to determine emission factors for each of the components of toxicological interest, including carcinogenic potency. In this manner, the standard mass-balance model can be used to predict their concentrations in occupied spaces. Next, panels of healthy nonsmokers and sensitive nonsmokers would be employed to test the odor, irritation, and cardiorespiratory impacts of exposure to E-cigarette vapor, using standard butanol wheel, eye-blink, pulmonary function, and heart rate variability tests. This would allow public policy to be based on science, rather than speculation. Of course, such studies would involve multi-million dollar research grants and multidisciplinary researchers involved. Then the peer-reviewed and journal-published data would be reviewed by impartial expert panels of national and international agencies. I submit that this would be the intelligent way to make a public health policy decision involving exposure of infants, children, elderly persons, and those with cardiorespiratory conditions to products of currently unknown composition and unknown interaction with the hundreds of existing air pollutants in indoor air. Until this is done, it is only prudent to keep E-cigarettes out of smoke-free zones."

With smoking being the primary area of concern, these two are focused on the E-cig and I don't think it matters if they contain nicotine. Multi-million dollar scientific studies and years and years of research? BP or BT need only apply.

The other thing that bothers me from reading about this group is the continued use of taxes as a weapon against smokers which carries over to other forms of tobacco use. First, this is a discriminating action against a minority group, tobacco users. I'm sure it hasn't gone unnoticed that the moment they started talking about putting a small tax on sodas and unhealthy juice drinks there was outrage even though it is obvious that these products are promoting obesity, health risks and early death for many people. Could you imagine if they added a buck or two of taxes to that six pack of coke and bottles of caffeinated energy drink? A war might break out.

There is a point of diminishing return with cigarette taxes especially where you start pushing the limits of societies combined budgets. When do we start turning the majority of smokers into criminals buying black market smokes? Then as the cash cow starts disappearing from government's bottom line, they start throwing those nicotine "drug" users in jail for possession (and guess who pays to keep them there) and increasing the taxes on the 99% better alternative tobacco products.

How much more can the smoker pay? If smoking is most common among the lower economic classes, how much can they pay- $10 a pack or $20. Two hours work for a pack of cigs? You want science based regulations? Great use science to establish levels of risk and establish sin taxes based on that risk. If smoking is 95 or 99% more risky than using smokeless or E-cigs make smoking pay the tax freight and let people know why they're paying the freight. If that Big Mac or that soda or whatever has more society risk than smokeless, tax them at a higher rate. Just stop this discriminating attack on smokers. Excuse me, tobacco users and those that look like they're smoking.
 
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bassnut

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Death and taxes are a certainty but I think it's a bit paranoid to worry about caffeine being taxed. A "Brew-In" or "Java Jump" would make a Tea Party look like a...tea party. I do understand your worry. I have the same concerns, believe me.

Anyway, about Dr. Siegle, it's not the opinion of the ecig detractors on the panel I'm concerned with exactly. Those people's opinions are ubiquitous but also illogical. I'm more concerned with the opinions that Dr. Siegle brings to the front. His message needs to be heard and this may be a great opportunity for debate. Remember that ecig opponents are either operating in a knowledge vacuum, in complete denial of the facts for emotional reasons or they are completely corrupt. In any case Dr. Siegal is now in a position to openly debate these fallacies, head-on and face to face with their proponents and expose them. I've seen nothing in anything I've ever read by him which leads me to believe otherwise....which I admit isn't much beyond what I've read in his blog. Have I missed something?
If Dr. Siegle wasn't on the panel would the panel still exist? I believe so. Then what?
 
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D103

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In the event we prevail and electronic cigarettes are classified as "tobacco products" - things to keep in mind; those entities, and they are large and powerful, who are currently working towards bans/other classification status, would consider this a "Huge Loss" -so to think that once they 'lost' they would then, after all this time of being disingenuous, misleading, manipulative, etc. suddenly say..."okay let's test it and make some reasonable, sensible and affordable safety regulations - do you really think that is at all likely???? Who would serve as oversight of the myriad of testing, poking, prodding
etc. that will have to occur in order to formulate safety standards and regulations? And what in anyone's mind would lead you to believe this would EVER be a fair, truly scientific
and impartial process???? eg. one flimsy, shoddy FDA study = ANTIFREEZE.....just wait until the petri dishes start flying if and when the whole "regulatory" process gets going..and keep a wary eye out for who is actually doing it.
 
I can assure everyone that I remain steadfast in my opinion that electronic cigarettes are a safer alternative to smoking and that they must remain legal. My participation on the FDA Shadow Panel in no way changes that. In fact, my participation on the panel simply gives me another avenue to share this important opinion with the Agency and with the scientific panel members who will be making these decisions. On top of that, it provides an opportunity for me to educate other anti-smoking advocates who may have a different opinion. I believe that a lot of minds can be changed simply by showing people how successful these products have been for so many people. The FDA Shadow Panel was covered by the Richmond Times-Dispatch and the website received widespread attention. I think this can only help to educate policy makers about the electronic cigarette issue. I realize there are others on the panel who don't share my opinions. But I view this as an opportunity to educate them and perhaps change their minds.
 
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whynotvap

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Death and taxes are a certainty but I think it's a bit paranoid to worry about caffeine being taxed. A "Brew-In" or "Java Jump" would make a Tea Party look like a...tea party. I do understand your worry. I have the same concerns, believe me.

You mean like this?
New Washington state ’sin taxes’ hike prices of beer, bottled water, candy | The Daily Caller - Breaking News, Opinion, Research, and Entertainment

This is in direct opposition to legislation that required a 2/3 majority to increase taxes. The Gov just pulled a Patriot Act and suspended it because she wouldn't want to live in a Washington where that tax wasn't implemented. I'm paraphrasing a bit but it boils down to taxing everyone and everything for all they can. I'm surprised there isn't a condom tax hike, it's about the only thing they haven't taxed through the roof yet!

:2c:
 

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I can assure everyone that I remain steadfast in my opinion that electronic cigarettes are a safer alternative to smoking and that they must remain legal. My participation on the FDA Shadow Panel in no way changes that. In fact, my participation on the panel simply gives me another avenue to share this important opinion with the Agency and with the scientific panel members who will be making these decisions. On top of that, it provides an opportunity for me to educate other anti-smoking advocates who may have a different opinion. I believe that a lot of minds can be changed simply by showing people how successful these products have been for so many people. The FDA Shadow Panel was covered by the Richmond Times-Dispatch and the website received widespread attention. I think this can only help to educate policy makers about the electronic cigarette issue. I realize there are others on the panel who don't share my opinions. But I view this as an opportunity to educate them and perhaps change their minds.
Dr. Siegel, thanks for posting here. You certainly have a challenge ahead when working with this group.
 

rothenbj

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I can assure everyone that I remain steadfast in my opinion that electronic cigarettes are a safer alternative to smoking and that they must remain legal. My participation on the FDA Shadow Panel in no way changes that. In fact, my participation on the panel simply gives me another avenue to share this important opinion with the Agency and with the scientific panel members who will be making these decisions. On top of that, it provides an opportunity for me to educate other anti-smoking advocates who may have a different opinion. I believe that a lot of minds can be changed simply by showing people how successful these products have been for so many people. The FDA Shadow Panel was covered by the Richmond Times-Dispatch and the website received widespread attention. I think this can only help to educate policy makers about the electronic cigarette issue. I realize there are others on the panel who don't share my opinions. But I view this as an opportunity to educate them and perhaps change their minds.

Good Luck Michael. Reading some of these people's opinions, you have a lot of work ahead of you.
 
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