FDA to regulate e-cig as tobacco

Status
Not open for further replies.

Secti0n31

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 13, 2011
733
166
Ohio
Negativity, or reality? tobacco products are taxed and regulated at the federal and state level. Ecigs, previously not being legally classified as a tobacco product could not be taxed or regulated by states or the federal government. Now they can be, in fact will have to be legally.

When was the last time you saw a website that sold home grown tobacco to the general public, tax free (except for state sales tax if the buyer resided in the same state as the seller)? Never, it would be illegal. The same goes for ecigs, now that they are a tobacco product, it is only a matter of time until the language of the hundreds or thousands of federal and state tobacco laws are changed to include ecigs and nic-containing ejuice specifically. It will require vendors to register with state governments, tax their products, and obey laws about online and out-of-state sales. This pushes costs up, which will make it difficult for small businesses to compete with multi-billion dollar players.

The industry is going to change considerably. Some changes will be good, many bad. Many will be forced out of business. The changes will take time, but they will happen. Slowly, incrementally. Prices will go up, not down. Availability will likely increase, but selection will likely decrease. Reliability will increase, the number of additives (except flavoring) will likely increase. Flavors may or may not ever be banned, but they will be threatened with bans. It's just the reality of a regulated industry.

Ok buddy, here's the great news to rack your tiny little brain. You're obviously not a troll because you've been helping people, so that means that you genuinely believe what you're posting.

It's more likely that e-cigs will be in the same category as chew, pipe tobacco and cigars, all of which can be easily purchased online. Hell I used to buy cigars all the time at Cigar Humidors, Cigar Accessories, Cigar Gifts, Cigar Pipes & Cigars - TheCigarStore.com , Now while you take a look at how easy it is to buy ACTUAL TOBACCO LEAVES online, let me remind you that the FDA has no rights to tax the products, and can only ban things that are scientifically proven to be unsafe. Since e-cigs may not be entirely safe, but are a lot healthier than tobacco, odds are there will never be any serious scrutiny.

Next up, the ever-feared taxes. Yes they will be present, probably somewhere between 1% and 10% which isn't all that bad. Cigars have a 33% tax rate with a cap of $1 per cigar, which means the more money you spend the less the taxes are. Now that's the tax rate for a corporate enterprise that's accumulated for more than half a century. The tax on Chewing tobacco is as low as 50cents a POUND. Have you EVER SEEN a pound of tobacco? It's freakin huge.

Now all of these products actually contained flaming carcinogens. E-cigs and nic liquid do not. By proxy the highest taxes go to the biggest sellers, with Cigarettes being #1, RYO tobacco being #2, Cigars and pipes being #3 and chew being #4. Maybe one day e-cigs will be as popular as regular cigs, but not today, and not during the near future.

On a (purely speculative) sidenote, most e-cig suppliers are very small businesses, and the cigarette industry is a trillion dollar industry. Maybe they'll be able to tax the importing of e-liquid, but if they start taxing mom and husband in bum-f-nowhere USA that sell e-juice out of their basement. They'll have a middle-class public uproar. Now if you think that they'll mandate the facilities or equipment. I'm sure that's something that the e-juice manufacturers will be willing to deal with.

So yes, there's a possibility that the lobbyists will push the crap out of taxing e-cigs to put the small companies out of business and make more room for more tailpipe smokers. But one supreme court judge has already shot down the FDA right between the eyes, and there are far more intelligent people out there, including the PRESIDENT who used an e-cig for some time.

Just think about it for a minute and realize that you're blowing up THE WORST CASE SCENARIO!! In a forum that is trying to HELP people who use these products? Quit .....*ng SCARING PEOPLE!
 

jlarsen

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 23, 2011
499
59
Helena, MT
I'm shocked the FDA lost, personally. I was prepared to shop for e-cig supplies at a head-shop, and possibly have to grow my own tobacco to extract nicotine from. I'm quite happy I was wrong.

Some people can't handle being wrong, and are just strengthened in their opinions in the face of any evidence to the contrary.

The FDA didn't lose. It is a partial win for the ecig industry, and a partial win for the FDA. Previously the FDA couldn't even regulate ecigs, and were attempting an all out ban by labeling them as drug devices.

We can now rest assured they will never be banned, but the FDA can (and will) regulate them.

The FDA banned all non-tobacco flavors in cigarettes, except menthol, and are now trying to ban menthol as well.

Flavors in snuff, snus and cigars are still legal, but there is potential for the FDA to ban them as well. It may happen some day, it may never happen. Non-tobacco flavors in ejuice may or may never be sought for a ban, but the potential is now there.

The best win for the ecig industry might have been if the FDA had lost totally and not been able to ban them as drug devices or regulate them as a tobacco product.

This opens the doors for taxation and regulation. Ecigs were previously untaxed and unregulated. Say all you want about "fearmongering" but you can't deny that the FDA now has the power to regulate ecigs, and states to tax them. The article specifically states that the FDA will regulate ecigs as a tobacco product. Any tax or regulation on a previously untaxed and unregulated industry will create changes.

Certainly people can't be so ignorant as to not realize that.

If you analyze how taxation and regulation forced changes in similar industries, specifically tobacco, but also the alcohol industry, it isn't difficult to see what changes could be in place for ecigs. Namely, higher prices, banned internet sales, and regulation of flavors and licensing of vendors and retailers.

It's impossible to say which changes will definitely happen, how long they will take to become law, etc. But the industry will change. This is not a complete loss by the FDA that will allow the ecig industry to continue as uninhibited as it has previously been. Anyone that thinks otherwise, is uninformed about the reality of regulated industries and products.
 

GIMike

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
May 15, 2009
1,822
719
Around OKC, OK
Ok buddy, here's the great news to rack your tiny little brain. ...........etc......
Just think about it for a minute and realize that you're blowing up THE WORST CASE SCENARIO!! In a forum that is trying to HELP people who use these products? Quit .....*ng SCARING PEOPLE!

This is a forum for discussion. It seems that those of us who agree that this is a great win for us, but still want to discuss the possilities of what could become are not allowed to speak. If this was a forum of facts instead of discussion, it would be called a book. Please let us discuss and stop berating those of us with ideas opposite to what you believe.
 

Secti0n31

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 13, 2011
733
166
Ohio
The FDA banned all non-tobacco flavors in cigarettes, except menthol, and are now trying to ban menthol as well.

I forgot about this part. Ok, so by limiting e-juice to "tobacco and menthol" They want to RE-CREATE the taste of EVIL TOBACCO?!? How can you seriously believe that they'll FORCE e-cig vendors to make their products taste like tobacco??? What the hell are you smoking because I want some.
 
Last edited:

Vap0rJay

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 22, 2011
358
224
Maryland
Had the FDA won the case, their storm troopers would be breeaking down doors all over the country right now to confiscate the "unapproved drug-delivery devices" from store shelves and suppliers' places of business.

Jail is big business. Had the FDA won, thousands upon thousands of otherwise upstanding citizens would be labeled a 'criminal' overnight and treated as such. After all right here in the "land of the free" we have the highest incarceration rate in the world... 1 in 4 people has been or is currently in jail. Scary eh?

Grandfather (rest his soul) use to have these words of wisdom:
Freedom is an illusion. You are not free. You are only free to do as you ‘ought’ to do, determined solely by the pens that write the laws… those laws may be moral, amoral, justified or simply absurd.
 

jlarsen

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 23, 2011
499
59
Helena, MT
Ok buddy, here's the great news to rack your tiny little brain. You're obviously not a troll because you've been helping people, so that means that you genuinely believe what you're posting.

It's more likely that e-cigs will be in the same category as chew, pipe tobacco and cigars, all of which can be easily purchased online. Hell I used to buy cigars all the time at Cigar Humidors, Cigar Accessories, Cigar Gifts, Cigar Pipes & Cigars - TheCigarStore.com , Now while you take a look at how easy it is to buy ACTUAL TOBACCO LEAVES online, let me remind you that the FDA has no rights to tax the products, and can only ban things that are scientifically proven to be unsafe. Since e-cigs may not be entirely safe, but are a lot healthier than tobacco, odds are there will never be any serious scrutiny.

Next up, the ever-feared taxes. Yes they will be present, probably somewhere between 1% and 10% which isn't all that bad. Cigars have a 33% tax rate with a cap of $1 per cigar, which means the more money you spend the less the taxes are. Now that's the tax rate for a corporate enterprise that's accumulated for more than half a century. The tax on Chewing tobacco is as low as 50cents a POUND. Have you EVER SEEN a pound of tobacco? It's freakin huge.

Now all of these products actually contained flaming carcinogens. E-cigs and nic liquid do not. By proxy the highest taxes go to the biggest sellers, with Cigarettes being #1, RYO tobacco being #2, Cigars and pipes being #3 and chew being #4. Maybe one day e-cigs will be as popular as regular cigs, but not today, and not during the near future.

On a (purely speculative) sidenote, most e-cig suppliers are very small businesses, and the cigarette industry is a trillion dollar industry. Maybe they'll be able to tax the importing of e-liquid, but if they start taxing mom and husband in bum-f-nowhere USA that sell e-juice out of their basement. They'll have a middle-class public uproar. Now if you think that they'll mandate the facilities or equipment. I'm sure that's something that the e-juice manufacturers will be willing to deal with.

So yes, there's a possibility that the lobbyists will push the crap out of taxing e-cigs to put the small companies out of business and make more room for more tailpipe smokers. But one supreme court judge has already shot down the FDA right between the eyes, and there are far more intelligent people out there, including the PRESIDENT who used an e-cig for some time.

Just think about it for a minute and realize that you're blowing up THE WORST CASE SCENARIO!! In a forum that is trying to HELP people who use these products? Quit .....*ng SCARING PEOPLE!

It is possible that ecigs will suffer the same lower tax rates that cigars and snus do. However that is merely speculation on your part. That is a best case scenario, mine might have been a worst case scenario, but nobody can say what is actually going to happen. Probably somewhere in between your scenario and mine, but only time will tell. Some states will have it worse than others, it isn't going to be equal for everyone everywhere.

And if you don't think the government can and will go after mom and pop shops, try telling that to someone that has had their property razed by the feds for operating a still. If suppliers don't have the legal credentials to manufacture and sell tobacco products, they are opening up themselves to serious legal liabilities, if they go to the expense and hassle of doing things legally, it raises their costs - this will necessarily force some suppliers out of the market. Even a 10% tax is going to force consolidation on the industry.

I could go out and buy a carton of cigarettes, and sell packs individually for a profit, as long as I don't get caught. If states decide to tax ecigs, even of mom and pop shops in bum___, selling out of their basements, then it is going to happen, public outrage isn't going to prevent that. It is going to force a lot of small vendors to decide to shutter their businesses, forego the extra expense to be legitimate, or operate illegally - a decision they didn't have to make until this ruling.

If your assessment of how tobacco products are taxed, then as ecigs gain popularity they will be more heavily taxed. So you really can't say the taxes are going to be as low as 1%, nobody knows what they will be until the states start imposing them. What are taxes on cigarettes? Well above 50% of the cost in most states, are they not?

Since some states have it out for ecigs, there's no telling what kind of taxes and regulations states will be imposing, only time will tell. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if in a state such as New York, which wants to ban ecigs, will slap a tax of 50-75% on them from day one.

You're spouting a best case scenario because you don't want to scare people, and others are dancing a victory dance as if this were some kind of huge victory. It is much better than the alternative, an outright ban, but it isn't really a victory over the status quo.

I may have been stating a worst case scenario, but at least I was being honest about what could happen, and what this "defeat" for the FDA could actually mean to the ecig industry some years down the road.
 

jlarsen

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 23, 2011
499
59
Helena, MT
The FDA banned all non-tobacco flavors in cigarettes, except menthol, and are now trying to ban menthol as well.

I forgot about this part. Ok, so by limiting e-juice to "tobacco and menthol" They want to RE-CREATE the taste of EVIL TOBACCO?!? How can you seriously believe that they'll FORCE e-cig vendors to make their products taste like tobacco??? What the hell are you smoking because I want some.

Obviously they can't force vendors to flavor all their juices like tobacco, and they can't stop vendors from selling candy flavors. What they can do, if they choose, and they may not since they haven't done it to snuff, snus and cigars (yet), is to ban vendors from selling juices and prefilled carts/cartos that are flavored with anything but tobacco flavors. Which means vapers would have to order tobacco or unflavored carts/cartos or juice, and then flavor it themselves, which wouldn't effect a lot of vapers, but it would effect some that aren't at all into DIY.

How can I seriously believe they would do that? They did it with analogs, and are now trying to pass legislation to ban menthol as well. They are also planning on doing it for cigars in the future... so why wouldn't they think to do it to ecigs, now that they have the right to regulate them.

Have you been living under a rock for the past few years? The FDA is at war with the tobacco industry, a limited war. Their stated goal is to reduce all tobacco products to only those flavors naturally found in tobacco. It is just a matter of time before menthol cigarettes are illegal, they are trying to do that as we speak. After that they plan on going after cigars. I imagine snuff, snus, and eventually pipe tobacco and ecigs will follow.

Some ecig vendors have already stopped selling juices that are flavored anything accept tobacco or menthol, in order to comply with the same regulations as those required by law for analogs, ahead of the FDA ruling to regulate ecigs as tobacco products... cowtowing to the FDA when they weren't even required to.

A quote from CASAA.ORG:

"December 2009: NJOY announces it is discontinuing, in the U.S., the availability of all flavors except its traditional tobacco flavor and menthol. The move aligns the flavors offered by NJOY with those allowed for combustible tobacco cigarettes under the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act."

Have you ever read the CASAA.org home page?

That's at least one U.S. ejuice vendor that has voluntarily made their products taste like tobacco, in order to appease the FDA, even though the law only required it for analogs.

As for what I'm smoking? I don't smoke anything. I vape, but I don't smoke.
 
Last edited:

jlarsen

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 23, 2011
499
59
Helena, MT
This is a forum for discussion. It seems that those of us who agree that this is a great win for us, but still want to discuss the possilities of what could become are not allowed to speak. If this was a forum of facts instead of discussion, it would be called a book. Please let us discuss and stop berating those of us with ideas opposite to what you believe.

Thank you.
 

Secti0n31

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 13, 2011
733
166
Ohio
No way is my speculation a best case scenario. The best case scenario is that nothing changes, and things actually get cheaper. The government determines that things are totally safe, and are promoted to all smokers as safe alternatives. The business takes off, big tobacco goes bankrupt, and the world it at peace.

Am I Speculating? Maybe. Is this an informed rant based on educated information on the workings of the tobacco industry and the tax methodology the government has been using for their current hikes on tobacco. This may be a forum for discussion, but I guess it bothers me to no end that someone could possibly be so negative about such good news.

I'm gonna go back to helping newbs with their flooded attys, and teaching people how to mod clearo's into useable devices. And trying to decide whether to buy a GLV2 or a VV joker, and which I like better, Camtel or Earp, and drip some CoV butterscotch and watch movies while you rack your brain with the argument that the taxes will be anywhere close to that of even cigars let alone analogs. Think about what I've said, and keep in mind that I'm not just "throwing stuff out there," I've seen the way the tide is rolling, and while you get sucked in the rips, I'm surfin the waves. Peace out.
 

DC2

Tootie Puffer
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 21, 2009
24,161
40,974
San Diego
It is much better than the alternative, an outright ban, but it isn't really a victory over the status quo.
While I have to agree with that, the people who are celebrating already knew the status quo wasn't going to last much longer.
Things were going to change one way or another, and we got the best possible outcome.
 
It is possible that ecigs will suffer the same lower tax rates that cigars and snus do. However that is merely speculation on your part. That is a best case scenario, mine might have been a worst case scenario, but nobody can say what is actually going to happen. Probably somewhere in between your scenario and mine, but only time will tell. Some states will have it worse than others, it isn't going to be equal for everyone everywhere.

It is only speculation that e-cigs will be taxed at all. Cigarettes are taxed by unit and even in New York it's still less than 40 cents in tax per cigarette. I for one wouldn't mind a 40 cent tax on cartomizers sold in convenience stores and gas stations. ;) If they instead choose to tax e-liquid like whole tobacco it would be by the ounce and obviously considerably LESS than the rate cigarettes are taxed.

The most likely method of taxing e-cigarettes is a percentage of the wholesale cost. Legislators are always looking for money so we can expect them to TRY to force exorbitant restrictive taxes and fees on e-cigs, but that doesn't mean they will succeed unless we are complacent.

I may have been stating a worst case scenario, but at least I was being honest about what could happen, and what this "defeat" for the FDA could actually mean to the ecig industry some years down the road.

The worst case scenario is that the FDA will find a way to make it expensive to manufacture e-cigarette products that can be made available everywhere that cigarettes are sold, but they will be unable to enforce any real restrictions on those of us who use mods or specialty/DIY e-liquids.

If I had my way, government would leave us alone whenever possible, but the fact is that levying taxes on consumer tobacco products is the government's prerogative. That and death are pretty much the only things we can speculate about that are certain to happen eventually. ;)
 
While I have to agree with that, the people who are celebrating already knew the status quo wasn't going to last much longer.
Things were going to change one way or another, and we got the best possible outcome.

Very very true. We don't know yet if the Industrial Age of vaping we are entering will prove to be better or worse than the "Golden Age", but I can guarantee it is a lot better than the Dark Age we would've gotten if Big Pharma would have had enough judges in their pocket.
 

Grimloki

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 4, 2011
103
11
PNW
I think people here aren't considering one likely scenario.

Evidence mounts that e-cigs are safer than cigarettes, scientific studies which prove this fact become prevalent, and medical professionals begin endorsing their use. I think this is the way things are going.

Other studies will show that e-cigs are excellent as a tool for quitting smoking. I think this will also be shown to be true.

With the scientific studies to show that e-cigs are as safe as their manufacturers claim, and with others to show that e-cigs are an effective tool to quit smoking, and with the FDA assured that e-cig manufacturers were following sane regulations for their manufacture and labeling, they could support the use of e-cigs.

One could argue that the FDA only follows the money and supports the interests of big industries. E-cigs are certainly poised to be a big industry. As a nicotine delivery device, they are superior to cigarettes.

Perhaps they are just very skeptical. I for one welcome the safety that some regulation would afford. I would like to know for sure that only 4 ingredients were present in my e-juice, and that it wasn't mislabeled, or adulterated with some nasty chemical. I'd pay a little more for that security.
 

DC2

Tootie Puffer
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jun 21, 2009
24,161
40,974
San Diego
I think people here aren't considering one likely scenario.
I think many of us are not only considering it, but counting on it.

We need to stay vigilant and keep fighting.
And we need to grow our numbers so that we can fight that much harder.

Many of the things you mention could, and probably should come to pass.
And that will help our numbers grow even faster.
 

BuzzKill

Unregistered Supplier
ECF Veteran
Nov 6, 2009
7,412
5,145
65
Central Coast Ca.
www.notcigs.com
Bring on the Black market shady back-alley paypal transactions with some guy named VapeMeister from sheboygan!:vapor:

You got it LOL !!! , I hope that this new situation will give rise to some real $$ studies on E-cigs so we can really see WTH IS going on with us all ???
 

jlarsen

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 23, 2011
499
59
Helena, MT
All I'm saying is that a true victory would have been if the FDA had had its hands tied and was unable to classify ecigs as either a drug delivery device, or as a tobacco product.

It's a bit of a catch 22. If nicotine was synthesized, not extracted, they couldn't call it a tobacco product. But that would give them a stronger case for it being a "drug" and a "drug delivery system". So it is probably best that they CAN classify it as a tobacco product. 100 years of BT fighting the FDA over whether or not nicotine is a drug, finally paid off.

So what is tobacco, is it a food, or a drug? It must be a food...

This opens up a lot of doors for government. It may not turn out to be a worse case scenario, but no amount of taxation and regulation can be as freeing as none at all. Worst case scenario, as a tobacco product, they could treat ecigs as harshly as they treat analog cigarettes - before the ruling, they only wanted to, now they have the ability, at least in theory.

Best case scenario, they tax them at the low end like snus, and leave the flavors alone, like cigars (though they are going after those as well, and flavored cigars will probably soon be banned).

In regulated and heavily taxed industries such as tobacco and alcohol, big money players and government win, small businesses and consumers lose - period, end of discussion, you can't argue with history. Basic economic theory as learned in college economics, if you tax something, you get less of it. Of course there is a lot of market share in the tobacco industry for ecigs to eat into. When you tax something, you get consolidation in the market. This is an absolute guarantee, less efficient companies that can currently stay afloat, go out of business when the taxes take effect, more efficient companies take over their market share.

Best case scenario, they get taxed lightly, which will still force some vendors out of business and effect the the variety of products available, if even only slightly. This "win" can't lower the costs or prevent government meddling, it is a ruling that gives them the ability to tax and meddle, something they didn't previously have. Period.

How often does the best case scenario happen? In the tobacco world, only to the least popular and least harmful products.

Currently vaping is both, and will always remain less harmful than smoking.

Doesn't the vaping industry and community want to see it expand and overtake smoking? I know I do. If that happens in the tobacco industry, that means eventually higher taxes and regulation than if vaping remains a fringe element. How much remains a mystery until it becomes a reality.

The curiously ridiculous lack of the FDA's ability to regulate the chemical additives (except flavoring, which they have the power to ban), in tobacco products means that if BT gets in the game and wants to put ammonia in your ecig, the FDA isn't going to stop them.

Vaping is already a trillion dollar industry. Now that the FDA has put ecigs in the tobacco aisle next to the analogs (figuratively speaking, but soon to be literally speaking), if you don't think BT is going to want in on that action, you're smoking more than analogs.

Whether it is BT, or simply the wealthiest and most efficient ejuice vendors that push some of the smaller ones out of business once the taxes go into effect, you can expect to see packs of prefilled carts/cartos and bottles of juice next to the snus and analogs at your local convenient store. Even if there are still online vendors, BT and/or the large distributors of ejuice aren't going to pass up the chance to get their wares on the store shelves next to the shiny red and white boxes of Marlb0ros (now that they can do so, now that their product is just another tobacco product) - and who can blame them.

Those items on the store shelves will be more convenient, which is NOT a BAD thing necessarily, but it is a game changer. Online vendors will lose business, or at least market share as more people switch to (or start) vaping. The more successful brands will be more competitive, further forcing others out of business, or limiting their growth - consolidating the industry, just as has happened with cigarettes and hard alcohol.

In years to come, vaping will be less about people ordering juice online, and more about people buying stuff in convenient stores, and as big name brands get more and more popular, the industry will slowly begin to look more like the cigarette/snus industry, and less like the current industry.

That isn't fear mongering, that's just how things work.

Maybe you can buy a tobacco leaf in a cigar shop or in a handful of select online tobacco shops... but where do well over 99% of all tobacco leaves end up, hanging in a cigar shop, waiting for some tobacco hobbyist to buy them? No, they end up in shiny cardboard boxes, wrapped in plastic with a government tax stamp on them, in a gas station. The same will happen to vaping supplies, to some extent, though maybe not as drastically as for other tobacco products.

Can you start your own cigarette company, sell your own brand of smokes? Sure, it's a free country, but the odds of survival are against you in a heavily taxed and regulated market. Ecigs are now a part of that market, they are no longer in legal and economic limbo. They are no longer in a free market. There is no going back now. The FDA didn't get their first choice, they got their second choice, and that is pretty much set in stone.

The face of the industry is going to change as a result of this ruling. Flavored ejuice may not be banned, but it isn't unreasonable to think that the FDA will push for that, they've done it with cigarettes and plan to do it with cigars. So far no plan to do it with chew, snus or pipe tobacco, but those are farther down on the tobacco food chain. Their stated goal is to ban all non-tobacco flavored tobacco products of which ecigs are now a member. It isn't fear mongering, it is a possibility.

You might be able to buy a cigar or tobacco leaf online, but most cigarette sales online are illegal. Technically, an intrastate sale that obeys state laws and taxes would be legal. If ecigs ever get rockstar status in the tobacco industry like analogs have, don't expect to be able to order them from out of country or out of state.

If Canada can stop shipments from the U.S., then customs can stop shipments from overseas. Which is more likely, a shipment getting confiscated of a totally untaxed and unregulated novelty item, or a shipment of a legally classified tobacco product that is regulated and taxed?

Fewer legal channels means fewer legal suppliers, and more consolidation in the industry. This isn't fear mongering, this is how commerce of regulated items actually occurs. Could I buy a bottle of untaxed, and unapproved hard alcohol from a Chinese mom and pop operation that isn't licensed to distribute to the U.S.? Sure, and I probably will get my shipment... but there is a risk it gets confiscated. Some suppliers on the margin will voluntarily close up shop. There may not be MUCH consolidation due to legal considerations, but there will be some, and that amount of consolidation will grow as vaping takes over more market share from the rest of the tobacco industry.

It isn't fear mongering, it is the reality of the legal and economic factors of an industry that suddenly becomes a taxed and regulated industry. This sort of scenario is taught in college economics classes. Regulation and taxation puts pressure on the industry, the industry responds in a predictable manner, though the extent depends on factors that are hard to quantify.
 

jlarsen

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Feb 23, 2011
499
59
Helena, MT
No way is my speculation a best case scenario. The best case scenario is that nothing changes, and things actually get cheaper. The government determines that things are totally safe, and are promoted to all smokers as safe alternatives. The business takes off, big tobacco goes bankrupt, and the world it at peace.

Am I Speculating? Maybe. Is this an informed rant based on educated information on the workings of the tobacco industry and the tax methodology the government has been using for their current hikes on tobacco. This may be a forum for discussion, but I guess it bothers me to no end that someone could possibly be so negative about such good news.

I'm gonna go back to helping newbs with their flooded attys, and teaching people how to mod clearo's into useable devices. And trying to decide whether to buy a GLV2 or a VV joker, and which I like better, Camtel or Earp, and drip some CoV butterscotch and watch movies while you rack your brain with the argument that the taxes will be anywhere close to that of even cigars let alone analogs. Think about what I've said, and keep in mind that I'm not just "throwing stuff out there," I've seen the way the tide is rolling, and while you get sucked in the rips, I'm surfin the waves. Peace out.

I don't know what you are smoking, but you've obviously never taken a college economics course. When you tax a previously untaxed industry, you never get lower prices, only higher, and there are always some sellers on the margin who are forced out of business, so there is always some consolidation of the industry. Even 1% tax and 1% regulation is more than there was before this ruling. This ruling has absolutely nothing to do with government recognizing ecigs as safer than cigarettes, and does absolutely nothing to put BT profits at risk. BT profits are more at risk with ecigs being untaxed and unregulated, this gives states the ability to tax them and level the playing field. The FDA did BT a favor with this ruling.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread