First three days without analogs

[VNeil]

I wished I had the mental clarity (lack of guilt) that you do in regards to vaping but I don't..... I suppose it's mostly because I had already quit smoking with the help of chewing tobacco.......... But I found myself as hopelessly addicted to chewing as I was with ciggs. So, now I am back to putting things back into my lungs after having given my lungs a rest for 5 years via chewing tobacco. But, vaping certainly helped me quit all forms of tobacco and for that I am grateful.

Yes, I too wish it were more socially acceptable

As you know from other threads, I am absolutely convinced that at least unflavored vaping has no more "unknown risks" in our modern life than many other things I don't bother guilting myself about. I never chewed and I'm not up on the Ultimate Truth behind those risks. But I can see how you would be a little uncomfortable about going back to putting something in your lungs. Explains a lot about our previous convos.

 

[VNeil]

I tend to think more along the lines of VNeil, at least for me personally. It would have been more difficult for an ape such as myself to try to use dual methods of nic intake...... But, that's just the way my psyche is wired and it probably is not the same as others here. I had to finally reach a point in my tobacco addition that it is either quit or die from the junk. I know that most vapers don't like that limited choice but that was the way it was looking for myself. So, I had to decide to quit once and for all....... But I also knew that it would not be as difficult as trying it cold turkey without the aid of vaping. Sure enough, it works!... Like others have said here, you just have to keep at vaping and not give up. If you give up you will certainly go back to the death sticks. I am certain that the stronger juice will help and then in just a couple of days you will be over the worst part of it.......... then it will be smoother sailing.

One other point...... I am lucky because what helped me most was that I got a juice that had high enough of a PG content that it felt like I was smoking a real cigg.......... In other words, vaping has fooled my mind.......... Even to this very day whenever I vape, I think I am smoking a real cigarette. So, a good tip is to get a juice that is high enough in PG that it will give you a good throat and lung hit and it will feel just like smoking.

I want to make one thing clear, for the OP and anyone else reading what I said... I'm not saying that an occasional smoke is bad. I'm not even going there, it was irrelevant to what I was trying to say...

What I was saying, as emphatically as possible, is that for me, there is no middle ground between zero cigarettes and my 40 year 2-3 PAD habit. I do not believe *I* can maintain anything in the middle over the long haul.

Back in the 90s I more or less quit for a year or so when Nicorette came out and I got a scrip. I would pinch a cig from my 2 PAD wife from time to time and I will not tell you how good that cig was. Then my doc pulled my scrip and I immediately relapsed into smoking. What I learned from that year is that an occasional cig, for me, was a form of Chinese Water Torture. I was always on the edge of the cliff, and it was only a matter of time before I fell off the cliff back to my multi pack a day cig habit. And I went through the same thing last year during the 7 weeks it took to finally quit after my first vape.

I'm not saying everyone is like me. But if you are, I think my advice is very good.

 

[TheDaughterOfTyr]

First three days were the worst for me and I was reducing my nic level by the end of week one. I think you're gonna do just fine if you've made it this far. Good going!

 

[AXIOM_1]

As you know from other threads, I am absolutely convinced that at least unflavored vaping has no more "unknown risks" in our modern life than many other things I don't bother guilting myself about. I never chewed and I'm not up on the Ultimate Truth behind those risks. But I can see how you would be a little uncomfortable about going back to putting something in your lungs. Explains a lot about our previous convos.

I love your posts. You are a very analytical person and so am I ...........I love conversing with people who have two brain cells and make use of at least one of them lol .... You make use of them and hence I tend to pay attention more and learn more from people like that.

Yes, it does explain some of our previous convos but don't get me wrong because I am not stating about having guilt because I think vaping is harmful.......... I really don't know why I have guilt but I do know it is not because I think vaping is some horrid and awful thing. After all, vaping may have saved my life and so in no way would I be hating on vaping.

Sure, I don't know what all the risks are (if any) but since it feels exactly like smoking to me then maybe that is what is responsible for my weird feelings. Who knows, I am just plain weird anyway

In our previous convos I was not disagreeing or not disbelieving anything that you mentioned........ You provided me with the links to the data and I finally went and researched them in order to see why you thought as you did. I am the type of person that needs data and not assumptions. Like I told you before I can handle the idea that other things are in tobacco that are responsible for "enhancing" addiction......... But, I personally feel (without facts) that those other substances (possibly alkaloids) are not the only things responsible. If I was to take all nicotine out of my vape, you would see me climb the walls in very short order. I know because I have tried it..... Now, people can debate all day long about WHY that happens to me but I only know that if nicotine is in my vape, then I can feel it do it's magic and my cravings go away......... If it's mental, then I suppose I don't know myself as well as I thought I did. On the other hand, it may be something directly related to nicotine........ And, it could also be related to whatever the nasty alkaloids and other compounds did to me when I used to smoke.

 

[VNeil]

I love your posts. You are a very analytical person and so am I ...........I love conversing with people who have two brain cells and make use of at least one of them lol .... You make use of them and hence I tend to pay attention more and learn more from people like that.

Yes, it does explain some of our previous convos but don't get me wrong because I am not stating about having guilt because I think vaping is harmful.......... I really don't know why I have guilt but I do know it is not because I think vaping is some horrid and awful thing. After all, vaping may have saved my life and so in no way would I be hating on vaping.

Sure, I don't know what all the risks are (if any) but since it feels exactly like smoking to me then maybe that is what is responsible for my weird feelings. Who knows, I am just plain weird anyway

In our previous convos I was not disagreeing or not disbelieving anything that you mentioned........ You provided me with the links to the data and I finally went and researched them in order to see why you thought as you did. I am the type of person that needs data and not assumptions. Like I told you before I can handle the idea that other things are in tobacco that are responsible for "enhancing" addiction......... But, I personally feel (without facts) that those other substances (possibly alkaloids) are not the only things responsible. If I was to take all nicotine out of my vape, you would see me climb the walls in very short order. I know because I have tried it..... Now, people can debate all day long about WHY that happens to me but I only know that if nicotine is in my vape, then I can feel it do it's magic and my cravings go away......... If it's mental, then I suppose I don't know myself as well as I thought I did. On the other hand, it may be something directly related to nicotine........ And, it could also be related to whatever the nasty alkaloids and other compounds did to me when I used to smoke.

I suspect that there is a 99% chance all the guilt you feel is directly due to all the negative anti-vape propaganda beamed at you 24/7. If, instead, the propaganda suggested vaping is a very healthy alternative to smoking then you would not have any guilt feelings. That is the power of propaganda and that is the power of Big Brother.

As far as the addiction issue, I have no doubt myself that we, ex smokers, are very dependent on nicotine. That is why we feel better when we vape nic infused juice and that is why many of us with high levels of dependency and nic tolerance started with the highest concentration we could find and still wanted more. This is purely based on my personal anecdotal experience but I don't seem to be unusual in that way here.

I think the part a lot of people have trouble wrapping their arms around is the idea that yes, we are very dependent on nicotine, but the magnitude of that dependence is directly associated with how it was delivered. And that is further confused by the fact that we were very dependent on a cocktail of other additives to tobacco but the details are closely guarded secrets (by BT and probably the gov't).

If you are interested in the Ultimate Truth behind the dependency aspect and how it relates to tobacco, then read carefully here, over the next five years or so, how never smoking vapers talk about their nic dependencies (or lack of?). They are the lab rats for all this. We can speculate all we want but they will prove this out one way or the other. To a lesser extent this probably has been done already because there are people that started chewing nic gum and using other NRTs that never smoked. My understanding is that few of them became dependent to any great extent. But there are no forums where those people congregate.

It is clear from studies that people using nic not delivered by tobacco do NOT develop a nic dependency within a 6-9 month time span. But I am not aware of longer term studies and that is why I think the never tobacco using vapers here will help answer the question of longer term use. But that "study" necessarily takes many years to play out. But there may be 5 year vapers now, in that category since vaping has been around a while.

There was a professor of neuroscience that started a thread here about Vaping For Nicotine Advantages. He is surrounded by college age students and he was of the opinion that it took more than a year of cig smoking to develop a dependency. He based that solely on his anecdotal observations of college students who only briefly took up smoking. That runs counter to what I always thought. I didn't think it took much cig smoking to "get hooked". But I respect that guy.

 

[MaenadMoogle]

This has turned into a super interesting conversation, but I'd also like to just toss out two related ideas:
1) Addiction may be genetic. Just through observation, there are people who can smoke for years and drop the habit cold turkey with no second glance back. There are others who can have a few smokes and be stuck for the rest of their lives. I half jokingly told my mother once that with my family history of addiction, I was lucky it was only nicotine I was addicted to. I really believe that this goes beyond nicotine addiction or what exactly is in analogs v. what's in vapor.

2) Studies showing the possibility that for those who started younger, nicotine re-wires the brain's "pleasure" pathways. Personal observation says that those I know who started smoking at younger ages, (even if they've quit before) are more likely to find extreme difficulty to quit compared to those who started nicotine later in life (after brain development was complete, approx. age 25)

 

[AXIOM_1]

I never chewed and I'm not up on the Ultimate Truth behind those risks. But I can see how you would be a little uncomfortable about going back to putting something in your lungs. Explains a lot about our previous convos.

On

I suspect that there is a 99% chance all the guilt you feel is directly due to all the negative anti-vape propaganda beamed at you 24/7. If, instead, the propaganda suggested vaping is a very healthy alternative to smoking then you would not have any guilt feelings. That is the power of propaganda and that is the power of Big Brother.

As far as the addiction issue, I have no doubt myself that we, ex smokers, are very dependent on nicotine. That is why we feel better when we vape nic infused juice and that is why many of us with high levels of dependency and nic tolerance started with the highest concentration we could find and still wanted more. This is purely based on my personal anecdotal experience but I don't seem to be unusual in that way here.

Yep, I think you are correct.............. After studying all of the links to data you provided as well as looking up lots of other data, I have came to a very similar conclusion........... Oh and by the way, I know all too well about Big Brother being the CORRUPT entity that it has become. Especially, the EVIL, monied banks who are putting money into the pockets of selected govt. officials.

Oh and not to lead the thread off topic but you mentioned not knowing about chewing tobacco.......... Well, I am somewhat of an expert in those regards having chewed a ton of the stuff........... In some of the links that you supplied there was lots of talk about research they did on chewing tobacco. They stated that the data has shown and they have known for a long time that chewing tobacco poses very little risk of oral cancer.......... I have an old can of chew sitting here that I use to put parts in and on the outside of the can there is a large warning that reads "This product can cause cancer or gum disease"............ Now according to the studies this claim would be patently false. You either believe the people who performed the studies or you believe what the govt has forced tobacco companies to place on the can.

My experience with chewing tobacco is that lots of the claims that the researchers stated seem to be very factual and in line with what I personally experienced. Yes, with chewing I was able to get off the death sticks. Without that chewing tobacco there is no way in Hades I could have ever gotten off of the death sticks. (I didn't know about vaping then) I tried for years to quit and could not. Trust me, I tried everything. So, in this regard, chewing was of great benefit to me.... But, I suddenly found myself having to deal with everyone who is brainwashed by propaganda who kept telling me how dangerous chewing was and that I was just swapping one cancer causing product for another... My response to them was "at least I am giving my lungs a rest"..........

To be honest I never really had too many ill effects from chewing. When I first started I would get sores in my mouth if I chewed a strong tobacco But after awhile even this never happened to me. I am NOT endorsing anyone to chew tobacco. I am only stating, that just like vaping, it is a good product to help get off the death sticks. Of course, vaping is much less gross and this is one of the reasons I started vaping so that I could get off the chew...... I was just as strung out on the chew as I was the ciggs.

 

[VNeil]

On


Yep, I think you are correct.............. After studying all of the links to data you provided as well as looking up lots of other data, I have came to a very similar conclusion........... Oh and by the way, I know all too well about Big Brother being the CORRUPT entity that it has become. Especially, the EVIL, monied banks who are putting money into the pockets of selected govt. officials.

Oh and not to lead the thread off topic but you mentioned not knowing about chewing tobacco.......... Well, I am somewhat of an expert in those regards having chewed a ton of the stuff........... In some of the links that you supplied there was lots of talk about research they did on chewing tobacco. They stated that the data has shown and they have known for a long time that chewing tobacco poses very little risk of oral cancer.......... I have an old can of chew sitting here that I use to put parts in and on the outside of the can there is a large warning that reads "This product can cause cancer or gum disease"............ Now according to the studies this claim would be patently false. You either believe the people who performed the studies or you believe what the govt has forced tobacco companies to place on the can.

My experience with chewing tobacco is that lots of the claims that the researchers stated seem to be very factual and in line with what I personally experienced. Yes, with chewing I was able to get off the death sticks. Without that chewing tobacco there is no way in Hades I could have ever gotten off of the death sticks. (I didn't know about vaping then) I tried for years to quit and could not. Trust me, I tried everything. So, in this regard, chewing was of great benefit to me.... But, I suddenly found myself having to deal with everyone who is brainwashed by propaganda who kept telling me how dangerous chewing was and that I was just swapping one cancer causing product for another... My response to them was "at least I am giving my lungs a rest"..........

To be honest I never really had too many ill effects from chewing. When I first started I would get sores in my mouth if I chewed a strong tobacco But after awhile even this never happened to me. I am NOT endorsing anyone to chew tobacco. I am only stating, that just like vaping, it is a good product to help get off the death sticks. Of course, vaping is much less gross and this is one of the reasons I started vaping so that I could get off the chew...... I was just as strung out on the chew as I was the ciggs.

I definitely appreciate the issues you had with the chewing propaganda. I think I read somewhere recently here that there are almost no known cases of actual oral cancer from chewing. If that's true then the propaganda really sucks. But as I implied, I never bothered to fact check that. I know the Swedish Snuff successes have been talked about a lot here but I think that snuff is more refined than American chewing tobacco? Oh well, I'll just keep on vaping. Without guilt

 

[VNeil]

This has turned into a super interesting conversation, but I'd also like to just toss out two related ideas:
1) Addiction may be genetic. Just through observation, there are people who can smoke for years and drop the habit cold turkey with no second glance back. There are others who can have a few smokes and be stuck for the rest of their lives. I half jokingly told my mother once that with my family history of addiction, I was lucky it was only nicotine I was addicted to. I really believe that this goes beyond nicotine addiction or what exactly is in analogs v. what's in vapor.

2) Studies showing the possibility that for those who started younger, nicotine re-wires the brain's "pleasure" pathways. Personal observation says that those I know who started smoking at younger ages, (even if they've quit before) are more likely to find extreme difficulty to quit compared to those who started nicotine later in life (after brain development was complete, approx. age 25)

My family is a whole zoo of long term cig smokers. Yet little other addiction issues, no real alcoholism for example. I think the issue of cig addiction is immensely complex and it's like peeling the layers of an onion.

I will also add - strictly anecdotally, but again, very typical of what I read here - that since I've been vaping the past year with no cigs at all, the nature of my nic dependency has changed dramatically and for the better. It is not nearly as intense. I'm not sure where my nic blood levels are because my vaping style has changed so much. But certainly I do not go nuts after only a half hour like I used to. I don't get the intense need to suck on something like I did with cigs. And I'm chain vaping, actually taking more hits than I probably did with cigs?

 

[AXIOM_1]

Oh well, I'll just keep on vaping. Without guilt

lol, yes me too Yep, I haven't fact checked it all either but I have vaping now........ For curiosity sake, I should look into it more.........but I will concentrate more on vaping since that is what I do NON-STOP each day.

 

[VNeil]

Speaking of chain vaping, this is a very important read for new vapers like @JSOC (the op): Nicotine absorption from electronic cigarette use: comparison between first and new-generation devices : Scientific Reports : Nature Publishing Group

It explains why many of us chain vape and why you can't vape your way to nirvana on a traditional "smoke break" and why higher nic concentrations may be very necessary for some folks, depending on your need and tolerance....

 

[AXIOM_1]

Speaking of chain vaping, this is a very important read for new vapers like @JSOC (the op): Nicotine absorption from electronic cigarette use: comparison between first and new-generation devices : Scientific Reports : Nature Publishing Group

It explains why many of us chain vape and why you can't vape your way to nirvana on a traditional "smoke break" and why higher nic concentrations may be very necessary for some folks, depending on your need and tolerance....

Hey, thanks for that link and I too will check it out. I'm not exactly a new vaper but none the less it looks interesting and I'll take a look.

 

[MaenadMoogle]

Wow. : Picture from the study, green is analog, red is an Ego type device, blue is a cig-a-like::

That would explain a HELL of a lot. As in, a cig-a-like is never going to get you there, and vape will but a lot slower.

**edit: they used an 18mg juice**

 

[VNeil]

Wow. :ic from the study, green is analog, red is an Ego type device, blue is a cig-a-like::

That would explain a HELL of a lot. As in, a cig-a-like is never going to get you there, and vape will but a lot slower.

View attachment 474450

Yes, it explains, among other things, that cigalikes are basically designed to fail. At least fail in terms of delivering enough nicotine to do the job. It also explains that the movement to restrict vaping to closed systems (basically 1st gen devices) is meant to stomp out this impediment to keeping millions smoking and dying, but paying those tobacco taxes until they do so.

In the interests of fairness, there are cigalikes that contain up to 50mg or so of nic, and they may work better than the devices in the chart. I never tried any of the cigalikes, I started with eGos and quickly worked my way up to something that really worked

 

[MaenadMoogle]

I started on cig-a-likes ::dies::, they did NOTHING for me, outside of making me want more analogs. I went back to analogs for months before I found an eGo and never looked back. Looking forward to upgrading in the near future.

 

[AXIOM_1]

I started on cig-a-likes ::dies::, they did NOTHING for me, outside of making me want more analogs. I went back to analogs for months before I found an eGo and never looked back. Looking forward to upgrading in the near future.

me too........ I started with cig-a-likes............ they "sort of" worked for me but the cost of the replaceable cartridges was way too high for this kid. I then discovered vape pens that you could actually put your own juice in. Then, graduated to bigger mods and such.

 

[AXIOM_1]

Yes, it explains, among other things, that cigalikes are basically designed to fail. At least fail in terms of delivering enough nicotine to do the job. It also explains that the movement to restrict vaping to closed systems (basically 1st gen devices) is meant to stomp out this impediment to keeping millions smoking and dying, but paying those tobacco taxes until they do so.

In the interests of fairness, there are cigalikes that contain up to 50mg or so of nic, and they may work better than the devices in the chart. I never tried any of the cigalikes, I started with eGos and quickly worked my way up to something that really worked

Yes, ANYTHING that the corrupt gvt. is involved in is bound to bring them profits and bring us poverty, suffering and death. You think all of this is bad do some research on all of the DANGEROUS things that are being put into most foods these days, let alone what is being dumped into all of the water supplies. I cannot stand what the "powers be" have done to all of us and all with no remorse, or empathy. I believe the correct terminology for people like that is sociopath.

 

[suprtrkr]

This has turned into a super interesting conversation, but I'd also like to just toss out two related ideas:
1) Addiction may be genetic. Just through observation, there are people who can smoke for years and drop the habit cold turkey with no second glance back. There are others who can have a few smokes and be stuck for the rest of their lives. I half jokingly told my mother once that with my family history of addiction, I was lucky it was only nicotine I was addicted to. I really believe that this goes beyond nicotine addiction or what exactly is in analogs v. what's in vapor.

2) Studies showing the possibility that for those who started younger, nicotine re-wires the brain's "pleasure" pathways. Personal observation says that those I know who started smoking at younger ages, (even if they've quit before) are more likely to find extreme difficulty to quit compared to those who started nicotine later in life (after brain development was complete, approx. age 25)

Not trying to hijack here, but I am personally acquainted with several people in the rehab business; they tend to regard the heritability of addictive tendencies as a fact rather than a theorem. Unfortunately, I lack their knowledge and can not point you toward any published works on this subject.

Thanks all, this is interesting.

 

[NoFumus]

Published in "Nature," 2 July 1998
The genetics of nicotine dependence

 

[suprtrkr]

Published in "Nature," 2 July 1998
The genetics of nicotine dependence

That was interesting, thank you.