FLAVOR HELP Needed From All ADVANCED DIYers FOR ALL DIYers!

[P-Dub]

As I sit here and look at all the flavoring concentrates that I have from the few manufacturers I have chosen, I wonder if I made the best choice with this manufacturer or should I have gone with that one. I also wonder if there is a better choice for a particular flavor and what manufacturer has it. The point is there are now quite a few manufacturers of flavorings out there for us to choose from and it takes a considerable amount of time and money to do the research to find a good manufacturer for a particular flavor. I have purchased particular flavors and have been disappointed only to finally find a review or suggestion from others for a better choice. That gets frustrating in a hurry. I know that taste is a subjective thing but there has to be a better way.

I propose that there be one place to find a collection of flavor concentrates and manufacturers of those flavors that are, in the opinions of the more advanced mixologists (ones that have tried multiple manufacturers of a particular flavor), the best.

For example, you have tried watermelon flavorings from LA, TPA, and FA and you have found FA to be the “best” because it most resembles what your brain perceives watermelon to taste like and the concentration needed to achieve that flavor is relatively low. Give your opinions of what makes this the best choice for a particular flavor and why. This way there is really just one thread for all of the BEST choices out there. I understand that there will be slight differences in taste but if you are looking to accurately replicate banana your taste buds will look for a replication of the chemical/molecular content of that flavor irrespective of what it tastes like to you. That will remain the same between all people. It doesn’t matter if you “like” the flavor so much as it is most accurately reminiscent of the flavor, so you make a suggestion of X brand. We all may taste a little different but taste and memory are strongly linked within the brain so while a particular flavor may taste one way or another the chemicals that make up the flavor remain constant providing a baseline for everyone.
This is not to in any way take away from what Nikhil had provided in his thread Guide to DIY flavoring. His thread has proved to be and continues to be an invaluable and important resource to everyone in the DIY community. This would be more of a supplement to that guide. This way if someone is looking for banana that taste like the little banana candy flavor they can find it with X or Y brand, and Y brand being better because drop-wise it is the least expensive and/or most accurately resembles banana candy.

We all spend enough on this hobby/addiction and any way to curb the expenditures and not have a bunch of concentrated flavorings filling up your drawer and leave you wanting more…

So that’s what I think.

 

[amrnation]

This way if someone is looking for banana that taste like the little banana candy flavor they can find it with X or Y brand, and Y brand being better because drop-wise it is the least expensive and/or most accurately resembles banana candy.

Sometimes I find that X+Y = Z for flavoring concentrates.

However this isnt too bad. The only issue being that people are biased and people dont always try every brand of the same flavoring looking for the certain flavor they want.

If someone trys a X (watermelon) from lets say Loranns and they like it enough they might not try another concentrate so you end up with a huge amount of posts with people declaring the best concentrate being the only one they tried. (I hope made since.)

Like with all e-liquids this thread could get very subjective and very biased very fast. :/

I can tell you right now that I've tried every single Cola every single honey there is when it comes to concentrates.

In my mixes of cola and honey I found that by mixing several different vendor's flavorings together at certain ratios then I get what i'm looking for.

Same with honey mixed with other concentrates to get what I am looking for.

Sorta like how some concentrates of Cinnamon will effect the cola mixed with another concentrate to give off that fizzy carbonated feeling to cola e-liquids.

DIY and your own taste for DIY is proabably even more subjective than people reviewing and rateing premade vendor e-liquids.

Hard to say where this will go but I wish you luck in your endevours

 

[P-Dub]

I have watermelon flavoring concentrates from LA, TFA, and Tasty Puff(TP).
Of those three, I have found TP to be the "Best". LA is way too strong, has a perfumy after taste and has that godawful color. TFA is not too close to the watermelon that I'm looking for and it's not a bad flavor but just not a watermelon. TP is the best because it most accurately tastes like watermelon (of those three) and you don't need alot of it to achieve the results.

OK, That's one... next.

 

[P-Dub]

Nevermind. corrected below hopefully.

 

[P-Dub]

Sometimes I find that X+Y = Z for flavoring concentrates.

However this isnt too bad. The only issue being that people are biased and people dont always try every brand of the same flavoring looking for the certain flavor they want.

If someone trys a X (watermelon) from lets say Loranns and they like it enough they might not try another concentrate so you end up with a huge amount of posts with people declaring the best concentrate being the only one they tried. (I hope made since.)

Like with all e-liquids this thread could get very subjective and very biased very fast. :/

I agree wholeheartedly, this is why I'm asking for "advanced DIYers" who have tried a number (three or more) to share experiences. As well, if you find a mix of flavorings that work in order to achieve what you are looking for tell us as well but tell us what it was that you were looking for, how you achieved it and what manufacturer of what flavor concentrates you used to achieve it.

 

[salemgold]

There is a thread here with a list of DIY suppliers and it may be helpful here. If I can find it I will post a link

 

[Zal42]

Also, "best" depends on what flavor you're shooting for. For example, LorAnn's may be the "best" cherry, if what you're looking for is the cherry you find in cough drops, however if what you're looking for is something like the actual fruit, it would be the worst. I have some recipes that need the LorAnns style and others that need something more realistic.

 

[P-Dub]

Also, "best" depends on what flavor you're shooting for. For example, LorAnn's may be the "best" cherry, if what you're looking for is the cherry you find in cough drops, however if what you're looking for is something like the actual fruit, it would be the worst. I have some recipes that need the LorAnns style and others that need something more realistic.

This is why it would be important for you to list WHY it is the best.
Maybe I should have put this in BOLD lettering in the original post so I'll do it here. Give your opinions of what makes this the best choice for a particular flavor and why.
Its there, third paragraph, second sentence. Perhaps I went on and on and wrote too much... I dunno.

 

[aprioristic]

First of all, forget Loranns. The is no reason to or excuse for using it ever. If you really want to tinker with DIY and need something fast from your local craft store + don't mind vaping poison diacetyl and artificial colors... uh maybe. Otherwise there is no reason to.

I'm with you in spirit on this question, but it is a lot of work. I also think people are misunderstanding how a flavorist works somewhat. You are thinking like flavors are part of a cake mix. If you want that maybe something like Capella's works and certain flavors are pretty much mix and go.

Flavor Art tends to be a little more like this than PA. Otherwise it takes a lot of trial and error, as well as time learning about each flavor. PA flavors especially are more like tools in a kit or puzzle pieces than a single solution. I think we actually need more sources of flavor for some things, it just depends what flavor you are talking about.

Anyhow, you need to learn how each flavor acts in three different roles and at what strengths:

- As a "characteristic" element or "star" in the flavor. It doesn't need to be everything the full natural flavor would be, but enough to make someone say, "This is cherry", and not strawberry. This seems like it would be the most important part and it is certainly info that is lacking, but it is actually the other two where talent and creativity as a flavorist comes in, and where the value in this type of thread lies.

- As a "contributory item". When a flavor is used at this level, it adds to the characteristic flavor to make it more realistic or achieve a certain purpose. The cherry that tastes like cough syrup might somehow make your strawberry better (or not). Things like DV Blackcurrant are useful for berry flavors sometimes. If you are working in little test batches and trying to be frugal, a single drop can overwhelm though.

- As a "differential factor". This would be something that seems to make no sense, and these are the reason that people can never figure out perfect replicas of certain flavors like Boba's Bounty. You are talking about really small amounts now, because roast beef could easily overwhelm caramel, but it might make your caramel special.

So you can see how to do this correctly would get 3 times as complex right away. Then you have the problem of flavor just being subjective and people having different goals in mind. Maybe they want a candy banana flavor or maybe they need just the overripe part of the aroma for a banana split.

Saying something is "best" or you like it isn't really helpful at all, unless you give a reason for using it. Read the reviews on Liberty Flights' FA page.. it's completely useless. It's better to give more accurate descriptors so people can have an idea how it could be used, and then they know if they might like it. Training yourself to think this way about flavor and develop a lexicon of descriptors is really hard. I am nowhere near an expert, but this is my attempt to give you guys an idea:

PA pear is a star in some of my all day vapes. It tastes "green" and juicy. I like that it's somewhat candy-like, but it needs to steep for 2+ weeks for best taste and this part of it to really develop. I'd use it at 7-15% in PG-heavy blends as a characteristic flavor or maybe 3-7% as a contributor.

I read some thread about how FA pear "has the omn nom nom" but was then kind of disappointed when I got it. It's more like a fresh, crisp pear, but can get perfumey and overwhelming easily. There's many types of pears, so maybe it is more characteristic of some certain type more common in Italy, but it is more of a contributory or differential item to me. I could definitely see it being used for an apple flavor.

Then I've started searching for other companies that have pear flavors and have found one totally different. There's tons more companies out there that make flavors, it's just hard to get them to even talk to you unless you are a big company yourself. I'd like to hear more about flavors from places like Nature's Organics and less about garbage like Lorann's in this thread. Accurate descriptors are what is worthwhile, not what is realistic or good.

 

[P-Dub]

First of all, forget Loranns. The is no reason to or excuse for using it ever. If you really want to tinker with DIY and need something fast from your local craft store + don't mind vaping poison diacetyl and artificial colors... uh maybe. Otherwise there is no reason to.

I'm with you in spirit on this question, but it is a lot of work. I also think people are misunderstanding how a flavorist works somewhat. You are thinking like flavors are part of a cake mix. If you want that maybe something like Capella's works and certain flavors are pretty much mix and go.

Flavor Art tends to be a little more like this than PA. Otherwise it takes a lot of trial and error, as well as time learning about each flavor. PA flavors especially are more like tools in a kit or puzzle pieces than a single solution. I think we actually need more sources of flavor for some things, it just depends what flavor you are talking about.

Anyhow, you need to learn how each flavor acts in three different roles and at what strengths:

- As a "characteristic" element or "star" in the flavor. It doesn't need to be everything the full natural flavor would be, but enough to make someone say, "This is cherry", and not strawberry. This seems like it would be the most important part and it is certainly info that is lacking, but it is actually the other two where talent and creativity as a flavorist comes in, and where the value in this type of thread lies.

- As a "contributory item". When a flavor is used at this level, it adds to the characteristic flavor to make it more realistic or achieve a certain purpose. The cherry that tastes like cough syrup might somehow make your strawberry better (or not). Things like DV Blackcurrant are useful for berry flavors sometimes. If you are working in little test batches and trying to be frugal, a single drop can overwhelm though.

- As a "differential factor". This would be something that seems to make no sense, and these are the reason that people can never figure out perfect replicas of certain flavors like Boba's Bounty. You are talking about really small amounts now, because roast beef could easily overwhelm caramel, but it might make your caramel special.

So you can see how to do this correctly would get 3 times as complex right away. Then you have the problem of flavor just being subjective and people having different goals in mind. Maybe they want a candy banana flavor or maybe they need just the overripe part of the aroma for a banana split.

Saying something is "best" or you like it isn't really helpful at all, unless you give a reason for using it. Read the reviews on Liberty Flights' FA page.. it's completely useless. It's better to give more accurate descriptors so people can have an idea how it could be used, and then they know if they might like it. Training yourself to think this way about flavor and develop a lexicon of descriptors is really hard. I am nowhere near an expert, but this is my attempt to give you guys an idea:

PA pear is a star in some of my all day vapes. It tastes "green" and juicy. I like that it's somewhat candy-like, but it needs to steep for 2+ weeks for best taste and this part of it to really develop. I'd use it at 7-15% in PG-heavy blends as a characteristic flavor or maybe 3-7% as a contributor.

I read some thread about how FA pear "has the omn nom nom" but was then kind of disappointed when I got it. It's more like a fresh, crisp pear, but can get perfumey and overwhelming easily. There's many types of pears, so maybe it is more characteristic of some certain type more common in Italy, but it is more of a contributory or differential item to me. I could definitely see it being used for an apple flavor.

Then I've started searching for other companies that have pear flavors and have found one totally different. There's tons more companies out there that make flavors, it's just hard to get them to even talk to you unless you are a big company yourself. I'd like to hear more about flavors from places like Nature's Organics and less about garbage like Lorann's in this thread. Accurate descriptors are what is worthwhile, not what is realistic or good.

Aprioristic, All good points and very insightful. Perhaps I was being a little too myopic.

Lets try this one on for size.

What are the flavorings you use, what manufacturer, and why?

 

[Shantia]

The perfumers apprentice has the best fruit flavors for spot on taste, must be mixed at very low concentrations 1-5% or risk a floral or chemical taste.

Capella's has the best chocolate and or vanilla, but are a true food flavor concentrate company so i do not trust them when it comes to possible Diacetyl inhalation. Maybe over time they will become even more aware of vapers, and start to post warnings on flavors that possibly contain Diacetyl for the user to make an educated risk choice.

Lorann's oils...I love their watermelon flavor but it reacts super bad to nic for me and creates an incredibly painful throat hit and lung spasm. Their other fruit flavors all have a chemical taste to me, and nearly all of their flavors contain artificial dye. I ordered around 50 flavors from them when i first started my diy venture, and quickly found them to be ...well..lets just say i still have 50 nearly full bottles. Gonna have to take up candy making now, cause they aren't for me when it comes to vaping.