Not a single pleasure of life is worth giving up for five years more dribbling at the end of it.
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Fog machines & glycol-based liquids & e-cigg
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Has this question gone to Ruyan or have they avoided the issue? I'm interested also.
regarding the initial post:
from what I saw on the net, most commercial stuff for fog machines is not only made from PG and water but most of them contain poliethylene glycol, diethylene glycol, dipropylene glycol and triethylene glycol (causes fertility problems in rats
). all of these are toxic, or way more toxic than PG.
They are using them in various proportions to make fog more thick, to last more, to have it stay at various levels above the ground etc.
Also, in clubs, they prefer to use more triethylene glicol than PG because PG and glycerine leave a slimy residue on the walls and everywhere but TG doesn't. TG also gives a longer lasting fog.
Now, why they are using it is clear, WHY are they allowed to use them is another problem!?!
Another potential issue with your e-cig, but especially for a machine that makes thousands of cubic foot of fog per minute is that if the liquid is burnt (bad atomiser, for example) it decomposes in Carbon Monoxide, CO2 and various aldehydes, formaldehyde (known carcinogenic) being one of them.
I found a good link to check the official toxicity reports for chemicals:
[can't put link] hazard dot com; then go to SIRI MSDS collection link
From what I saw until now about PG and glycerine I couldn't find anything too worrying, so I'll use it for now without fear. The only thing I'll try to avoid is the 'burnt' smell.
from what I saw on the net, most commercial stuff for fog machines is not only made from PG and water but most of them contain poliethylene glycol, diethylene glycol, dipropylene glycol and triethylene glycol (causes fertility problems in rats
). all of these are toxic, or way more toxic than PG. They are using them in various proportions to make fog more thick, to last more, to have it stay at various levels above the ground etc.
Also, in clubs, they prefer to use more triethylene glicol than PG because PG and glycerine leave a slimy residue on the walls and everywhere but TG doesn't. TG also gives a longer lasting fog.
Now, why they are using it is clear, WHY are they allowed to use them is another problem!?!
Another potential issue with your e-cig, but especially for a machine that makes thousands of cubic foot of fog per minute is that if the liquid is burnt (bad atomiser, for example) it decomposes in Carbon Monoxide, CO2 and various aldehydes, formaldehyde (known carcinogenic) being one of them.
I found a good link to check the official toxicity reports for chemicals:
[can't put link] hazard dot com; then go to SIRI MSDS collection link
From what I saw until now about PG and glycerine I couldn't find anything too worrying, so I'll use it for now without fear. The only thing I'll try to avoid is the 'burnt' smell.
Just a little something I ran across.
Probably already well known in here, but here it is for those that might not be sure.
I use PG & Glycerine in my fire sprinkler systems @ 50/50 with water to form a -26 F Antifreeze.
Googled: Atomized Glycol Fog
Atomized Glycol Fog
MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE PUTTING IN YOUR HOME BREWS.
Important Points
* This type of fog is heated and will rise or disperse at a higher level than dry ice or liquid nitrogen fog. Coolers can be used if low-lying fog is desired.
* Changing the mixture or conditions of dispersion of atomized glycols can result in many special effects that are difficult to achieve with other simulated smokes.
* Glycols can undergo heat denaturation into highly toxic substances, such as formaldehyde. This is one of the major problems with homemade smoke machines - they may operate at a temperature that is incompatible with the substances being used. Also, this is a danger with homemade fog juice used in commercial machines.
* Glycols, glycerine, and mineral oil can all leave an oily residue, resulting in slick or sometimes slightly sticky surfaces. Be aware of the potential safety hazards, especially since the smoke may limit visibility. Also, some people may experience skin irritation from exposure to glycol fog.
* Some glycols are toxic and should not be used to create smoke. Ethylene glycol is poisonous. Some glycols are sold as mixtures. Medical or pharmaceutical grade non-toxic glycols only should be used in smoke machines. Do not use antifreeze to make a fog mixture. The ethylene glycol types are poisonous and the propylene glycol types always contain undesirable impurities.
* If water is used, it needs to be distilled water, since hard water deposits can damage the atomizer apparatus.
* Some of the chemicals that can be used for this type of smoke are flammable.
Probably already well known in here, but here it is for those that might not be sure.
I use PG & Glycerine in my fire sprinkler systems @ 50/50 with water to form a -26 F Antifreeze.
Googled: Atomized Glycol Fog
Atomized Glycol Fog
MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE PUTTING IN YOUR HOME BREWS.
Important Points
* This type of fog is heated and will rise or disperse at a higher level than dry ice or liquid nitrogen fog. Coolers can be used if low-lying fog is desired.
* Changing the mixture or conditions of dispersion of atomized glycols can result in many special effects that are difficult to achieve with other simulated smokes.
* Glycols can undergo heat denaturation into highly toxic substances, such as formaldehyde. This is one of the major problems with homemade smoke machines - they may operate at a temperature that is incompatible with the substances being used. Also, this is a danger with homemade fog juice used in commercial machines.
* Glycols, glycerine, and mineral oil can all leave an oily residue, resulting in slick or sometimes slightly sticky surfaces. Be aware of the potential safety hazards, especially since the smoke may limit visibility. Also, some people may experience skin irritation from exposure to glycol fog.
* Some glycols are toxic and should not be used to create smoke. Ethylene glycol is poisonous. Some glycols are sold as mixtures. Medical or pharmaceutical grade non-toxic glycols only should be used in smoke machines. Do not use antifreeze to make a fog mixture. The ethylene glycol types are poisonous and the propylene glycol types always contain undesirable impurities.
* If water is used, it needs to be distilled water, since hard water deposits can damage the atomizer apparatus.
* Some of the chemicals that can be used for this type of smoke are flammable.
Effects of theatrical smokes and fogs
Chronic work-related wheezing and chest tightness were significantly associated with increased cumulative exposure to fogs (mineral oil and glycols) over the previous 2 years. Acute cough and dry throat were associated with acute exposure to glycol-based fogs; increased acute upper airway symptoms were associated with increased fog aerosol overall. Lung function was significantly lower among those working closest to the fog source. Conclusions Mineral oil- and glycol-based fogs are associated with acute and chronic adverse effects on respiratory health among employees.
Special Effects Facts & Hazards
Propylene Glycol
CAS# 57-55-6
Uses: Organic synthesis, antifreeze solutions, solvents, flavoring extracts, perfumes, coolant in refrigeration systems, hydraulic fluids, deicing fluids for airport runways, and cosmetics.
A skin and eye irritant. It affects the central nervous system in humans.
Acute/Chronic Hazards: This compound may be harmful by inhalation, ingestion or skin absorption. When heated to decomposition it emits toxic fumes of carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide.
Symptoms: Symptoms of exposure to this compound may include central nervous system depression. Other symptoms may include convulsions. In children, exposure can cause stupor, tachypnea, tachycardia, diaphoresis and seizures.
Chronic work-related wheezing and chest tightness were significantly associated with increased cumulative exposure to fogs (mineral oil and glycols) over the previous 2 years. Acute cough and dry throat were associated with acute exposure to glycol-based fogs; increased acute upper airway symptoms were associated with increased fog aerosol overall. Lung function was significantly lower among those working closest to the fog source. Conclusions Mineral oil- and glycol-based fogs are associated with acute and chronic adverse effects on respiratory health among employees.
Special Effects Facts & Hazards
Propylene Glycol
CAS# 57-55-6
Uses: Organic synthesis, antifreeze solutions, solvents, flavoring extracts, perfumes, coolant in refrigeration systems, hydraulic fluids, deicing fluids for airport runways, and cosmetics.
A skin and eye irritant. It affects the central nervous system in humans.
Acute/Chronic Hazards: This compound may be harmful by inhalation, ingestion or skin absorption. When heated to decomposition it emits toxic fumes of carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide.
Symptoms: Symptoms of exposure to this compound may include central nervous system depression. Other symptoms may include convulsions. In children, exposure can cause stupor, tachypnea, tachycardia, diaphoresis and seizures.
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Good finds, Jamie. And doesn't this concern you?
NO ONE has ever sucked these glycol-based vapors multiple times daily into their lungs for a long period of time. We're more than funny little guinea pigs. Worse off than a lab rat testing Chantix. We blithely act as if this were safe! Yikes. We only get one set of lungs and they don't grow back.
I'd really, really like better research before we encourage the world to join us in this practice. Remember when cigarettes were just a cool way to use tobacco (all previous uses -- sniffing, chewing, pipes and cigars were far safer)? Time proved otherwise.
NO ONE has ever sucked these glycol-based vapors multiple times daily into their lungs for a long period of time. We're more than funny little guinea pigs. Worse off than a lab rat testing Chantix. We blithely act as if this were safe! Yikes. We only get one set of lungs and they don't grow back.
I'd really, really like better research before we encourage the world to join us in this practice. Remember when cigarettes were just a cool way to use tobacco (all previous uses -- sniffing, chewing, pipes and cigars were far safer)? Time proved otherwise.
Gawd, that's frightening, jamie.
That's the first real information we've got so far about inhalation toxicity. And this is for people who are in some sort of theatrical business that is not exposed to it several times a day for the rest of their lives.
Has anybody sent this link to Dr. Loi or Dr. Laugensen?
That's the first real information we've got so far about inhalation toxicity. And this is for people who are in some sort of theatrical business that is not exposed to it several times a day for the rest of their lives.
Has anybody sent this link to Dr. Loi or Dr. Laugensen?
WHAT!?
Don't panic. I''m sure that's referring to those with allergies to PG, like VP. The same way they refer to rare side effects in medical literature.
You're probably right about that, it says may be harmful. I was just a little bit worried about the next part which says "When heated to decomposition it emits toxic fumes of carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide."
Spider
Spider
"When heated to decomposition it emits toxic fumes of carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide." Hmmm... Sounds just like cigarettes. Wouldn't it be great if we all got lung cancer anyway? I can see the real tobac smokers laughing at us now, killed smoking a poor imitation of their products.
Here's a bit of info from DOWs site regarding toxicity."PG does not cause sensitization and shows no evidence of being a carcinogen or of being genotoxic.20" I also find it interesting that PG was denied for use in cat food, but it is used in human food?
Here's a bit of info from DOWs site regarding toxicity."PG does not cause sensitization and shows no evidence of being a carcinogen or of being genotoxic.20" I also find it interesting that PG was denied for use in cat food, but it is used in human food?
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Oh, like the medication Lyrica...where it may cause you to lose your grandma's house on the crap tables...and hump a 100 lb. bag of feed at the petting zoo?
I feel better now.
So, I was reading this study again:
http://www.chem.unep.ch/irptc/sids/OECDSIDS/57-55-6.pdf
I almost laughed out loud on this one. Not funny ha-ha...funny as in "What the hell?"
So they jack up the DRINKING WATER with PG, and the dang things up and die from DEHYDRATION and starvation before the study is done. Either the rats didn't like the taste of PG, or that stuff dried them right out.
http://www.chem.unep.ch/irptc/sids/OECDSIDS/57-55-6.pdf
I almost laughed out loud on this one. Not funny ha-ha...funny as in "What the hell?"
So they jack up the DRINKING WATER with PG, and the dang things up and die from DEHYDRATION and starvation before the study is done. Either the rats didn't like the taste of PG, or that stuff dried them right out.
Keep drinking water. Drink tons. It's good for ya anyway.
Especially if you're a rat.
Especially if you're a rat.
Hmmmm. PG might be turning us into human jerky, from the inside out!
Actually, since no human studies seem to have been done ... this is disturbing information.
Actually, since no human studies seem to have been done ... this is disturbing information.
I do believe that dehydration is a factor with the PG, T-Bob. Increased thirst and dry skin has been discussed here already so it does make sense.
That may be meaningful, however there are numerous human foods that are toxic to dogs or cats, including chocolate, onions, tomatoes, grapes...
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