FOIA Request Results (Open Government Advocacy by CASAA members)

[Placebo Effect]

Some public comments in opposition

And some ridiculous comments in favor of the indoor use ban:

 

[throatkick]

I find Bridget Vandeventer's 4/14/11 email particularly interesting:

It's a shame that some of the Tacoma officials see this as a battle involving strategy instead of an opportunity to have an informed discussion leading to a better understanding of the issue. This attitude is evidenced in quite a few of the emails, and I find it troubling.

Kirsten Frandsen (again, in reference to Kim from The Vaporium) noted:

It's kind of strange to me that Kirsten criticizes Kim's arguments as being "not proven," and then goes on to say, "We don't have the data to counter argue the points." In other words, their arguments aren't proven, either?

And that's kind of where it all breaks down, doesn't it? We have government and health departments trying to prohibit activities without any scientific proof of harm to bystanders.

They can't counter so they can just try to discredit thereby hoping that most will not realize that they have nothing of substance to counter with?

I often wonder about such peoples' motivation. How an otherwise perceptive and intelligent person can be driven to think in such a fashion is beyond me. sense of duty? Us against them? There's a serious flaw in the logic. Slippery, slippery slope.

+12,000,000,000,000

 

[rothenbj]

I don't suppose it's occurred to Ms. Henson that someone who successfully transitioned from smoking to vaping wouldn't be at one of her meetings?

But be it as it may, I do agree that multiple unsuccessful quit attempts take a toll. I got to the point where I felt like a complete failure after trying to quit with no success. That's why I'm gobsmacked that the antis are so dead set against e-cigarettes. While they don't work for everyone, all indications are that they are far, far more successful than any of the crap NRTs on the market.

But I guess the mindset is that we're still smoking because it kind of sort of looks like we're smoking and most of us continue to use nicotine. Once again, another professional confuses nicotine cessation with smoking cessation.

Julie, we are somewhat jaded by all the success we've seen on ECF. There are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of success stories about E Cigs. That being said, there are millions that haven't gotten it and we don't see them here. I personally know more failures than successes. Many haven't listened to me and went out and bought your typical overpriced mall units, realized that they weren't like real cigarettes or didn't want to be bothered with the effort and inconvenience and went back to smoking.

I almost don't try to help anymore and just tell them before they buy that they should get on here, investigate and ask questions. I'll normally mention manual 510s because you can get them cheap and for a starter unit they seem to be a good inexpensive approach.

The biggest positive for E Cigs is this forum. You don't have to leave your house to get "counseling", you can be educated for no monetary outlay and you have the world's largest support group. I have a gal that I play poker with that just bought something. I still haven't seen it since she hasn't brought it to poker and is still smoking. I told her yesterday, AGAIN, to get on here and ask questions. I think this is her second E Cig, but unless she starts asking questions and finding out a taste that she likes, she may not like it. Here's a woman that SHOULD be motivated having had heart issues and wearing a pacemaker. I personally think, based on what she's talked to me about, that she would be a great candidate for Swedish snus but haven't been willing to take her there just yet.

The one thing I'm quite sure of, regardless of quit/failure rates, E Cigs can't be any worse than NRT and drugs. These people that sell a product that has single digit success in less than two years are selling no more than a placebo in my mind. If E Cigs are also just placebos, they are a darn better one than anything Pharma has brought to the table.

 

[Vocalek]

Pat Richmond commented, “As a volunteer tobacco cessation support group facilitator I see the health consequences of tobacco and nicotine addiction and the struggle people have to finally quit the addiction for good.”

I don't suppose it ever occurred to Pat that what s/he sees as a struggle with nicotine addiction is actually the suffering of people with medical conditions who have been coerced to stop using the medication that keeps their symptoms under control.

Some people would call my cousin, who takes large daily doses of Percoset, a drug addict. I think it is significant that my cousin does not experience any type of "high" from the Percoset. She experiences some relief from the constant pain of a pinched sciatic nerve and 4 bulging spinal discs.

I wonder if Pat has ever looked around the room a week after the quit date and noticed that there are a variety of reactions in the room. Some people feel great. Their only struggle may be with occasional cravings. There will be several people--perhaps as much as 20% of the group--who look like something the cat dragged in. They have dark circles under their eyes. They seemed to have barely enough energy to drag themselves into the room and flop into a seat. At least one, when asked to speak about her week's experience, will burst into tears.

These people look sick because they ARE sick. The nicotine has been an effective treatment for one or more of the following conditions: chronic fatigue, nagging pain, attention deficits, beginning symptoms of dementia (older smokers), Crohn's disease, colitis, depression, anxiety, or side-effects from medications.

The enemy isn't nicotine. The ememies are the chronic conditions these folks are fighting. The enemies are the self-righteous prigs who view those who become ill from nicotine abstinence as weak-willed scum.

 

[JustJulie]

Julie, we are somewhat jaded by all the success we've seen on ECF. There are hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions, of success stories about E Cigs. That being said, there are millions that haven't gotten it and we don't see them here. I personally know more failures than successes. Many haven't listened to me and went out and bought your typical overpriced mall units, realized that they weren't like real cigarettes or didn't want to be bothered with the effort and inconvenience and went back to smoking.

I almost don't try to help anymore and just tell them before they buy that they should get on here, investigate and ask questions. I'll normally mention manual 510s because you can get them cheap and for a starter unit they seem to be a good inexpensive approach.

The biggest positive for E Cigs is this forum. You don't have to leave your house to get "counseling", you can be educated for no monetary outlay and you have the world's largest support group. I have a gal that I play poker with that just bought something. I still haven't seen it since she hasn't brought it to poker and is still smoking. I told her yesterday, AGAIN, to get on here and ask questions. I think this is her second E Cig, but unless she starts asking questions and finding out a taste that she likes, she may not like it. Here's a woman that SHOULD be motivated having had heart issues and wearing a pacemaker. I personally think, based on what she's talked to me about, that she would be a great candidate for Swedish snus but haven't been willing to take her there just yet.

The one thing I'm quite sure of, regardless of quit/failure rates, E Cigs can't be any worse than NRT and drugs. These people that sell a product that has single digit success in less than two years are selling no more than a placebo in my mind. If E Cigs are also just placebos, they are a darn better one than anything Pharma has brought to the table.

I pretty much agree with everything you've said. My personal experience is that less than half of the people who try e-cigs will eventually make a complete transition to vaping. There are, of course, some factors that will increase the odds of success (good equipment, mentoring, and social support), but there's no getting around that e-cigs don't work for everybody.

But what's particularly telling to me is that of the people I personally know who've made a successful transition, every single one of them engaged in multiple quit attempts (all, obviously, unsuccessful). In other words, for many people, this works when nothing else seems to.

When the antis talk about how failed quit attempts make it harder, I agree . . . and that makes me wonder how they can dismiss e-cigs, which hold so much promise.

 

[Sweeper]

ugh the STUPID. so glad I've never had problems with this idiocy. I live in Clarkston, WA, and nobody has ever had a problem with my vaping. I just went on a 3-week trip to afghanistan, vaping the whole time, and nobody said anything, not even on the plane!

That said, good to know how nasty this FOIA stuff can be, if anyone tries to harsh my buzz here, I'll make sure to belt them over the head

 

[rothenbj]

Julie, what's not so funny about you comment was my experience. I had quit so many times that I had become a confirmed non-quitter. As a guard at a local county courthouse said as I was going through security and was asked about my Chuck, my attitude got to the point of "I'm not a quitter".

Dozens of attempts had gotten be to the point of quitting trying to quit. Had it not been for my girlfriend and her insistence that I try an E Cig (I took the notion as another of her hair brained ideas) I wouldn't be sitting here today almost a year an a half since my last smoke. The only time I didn't try to quit, only appease her, and it worked. Go figure.

By the way, she still smokes but is finally giving E Cigs a second chance.

 

[rolygate]

Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis are similar conditions and often confused even by medical personnel, especially in the diagnosis stage. One mainly affects the small intestine, the other mainly affects the large intestine, although this is not always the case, and each has several side effects, plus those of the medications taken. In general it is recognised that nicotine is contra-indicated in Crohn's but of benefit at all stages of UC.

In particular, persons at risk of developing UC due to its presence in close family members should consider initiating nicotine use for prophlyactic purposes, as although UC has a strong genetic factor it is seen significantly less in smokers (statistics show UC as being strongly associated with those who (a) have a genetic connection to one or more sufferers and (b) are non-smokers). It has been described as a 'non-smoker's disease' but that is probably taking it too far.

It is also strongly suggested that if a person is at risk of presenting with UC due to genetic factors, they should not cease smoking as this may be a trigger factor. It would be interesting to see if a change to a harm reduction alternative removed the trigger action but research of this sort is probably decades away.

 

[JustJulie]

Believe it or not, I wasn't trying to quit when I bought an e-cig . . . I had quit so many times before that I finally decide that if it's "quit or die," I guess I'm going to die. Actually, I bought the e-cig in a desperate attempt to at least cut back on what had become a 2+ pack-a-day habit. I figured if I could replace at least some of those cigarettes smoked with vaping, maybe I'd get back down to a 1 1/2 packs a day. I told myself that when I wanted to have a cigarette, I'd try to vape through the craving, but when it got too much, I'd have a cigarette and not guilt myself.

I was shocked that by Day 3, I was done with smoking. Could have knocked me over with a feather.

When we work with people locally, we tell them to quit trying to quit . . . don't think about it as quitting or that you'll never have another cigarette again . . . just think of it as something more akin to switching brands. And we also tell them to try to vape through the cravings but not to make themselves miserable . . . if they really, really feel they need a cigarette, have one . . . and then when the next big craving comes along, try to vape through it.

I think one of the reasons why e-cigs work so well is because you really can look at it as an alternative to smoking and not focus on the "quitting," which for so many of us was fraught with distress and disappointment.

 

[Ande]

The enemy isn't nicotine. The ememies are the chronic conditions these folks are fighting. The enemies are the self-righteous prigs who view those who become ill from nicotine abstinence as weak-willed scum.

Vocalek is my hero.

I couldn't have said it better.

Neither could anybody else.

Ande

 

[Placebo Effect]

Without prior approval or any decision by the Board of Health, a sign was put up at the Board of Health meetings disallowing e-cigarette usage. Turns out that was against the rules:

I only wish Thad was a confrontational law student, because then he would've pointed out to the vapers that no county or city code prohibits e-cigarette usage indoors, and that the Health Department cannot opt to make rules out of thin air.

 

[Placebo Effect]

Arranging for pro-ban speakers:

 

[afrazier5]

Very interesting that it seems they almost have to beg and plead for people to come support the legislation on their behalf!

 

[Ande]

Interesting that this is NOT a process of investigation. It's a process of trying to drum up support for their foregone conclusions.

Makes you wonder what passes for investigation. HOW did they decide that including ecigs in the smoking ban was what they wanted?

Ande

 

[Jacinda222]

Very interesting that it seems they almost have to beg and plead for people to come support the legislation on their behalf!

Hey, nice fish Aaron! Where were you guys when you caught it? Lake Powell?

Yes, if they need to round up their buddies to make a showing... maybe they should realize that they're doing this for the wrong reasons.

 

[afrazier5]

Jacinda what they don't realize is this is exactly what we need to be able to fight them. All the communications essentially prove that the battle is no longer about smoking which has been their stand all along. I really think this type of information will prove highly beneficial to our upcoming fights in Utah and other states.

And yea, caught the Striper down at Lake Powell but that was one of my smaller one. I landed about a 10 pounder but didn't have a camera with me that morning...go figure!

 

[Thulium]

I only wish Thad was a confrontational law student, because then he would've pointed out to the vapers that no county or city code prohibits e-cigarette usage indoors, and that the Health Department cannot opt to make rules out of thin air.

Well, since we were there to specifically oppose the proposed legislation, everyone knew that it was not and could not be legally enforceable, but we understood that the property management has the right to ask us not to vape--not that it actually stopped anyone from vaping discretely or in the restrooms.

What it the signs did accomplish was convincing us that we should not demonstrate e-cigs during the hearing, but many people at the public meeting went to the bar afterward and saw demonstrations not only of vaping, but of seeing most of the wait staff and some other patrons given disposable e-cigs.

 

[Placebo Effect]

Some more from Tacoma

Predictably, the comments on the TNT site are opposed to the e-cigarette regulation and snarky in nature. We might consider asking some proponents and tobacco prevention supporters to chime in and help balance out the online conversation.

I’m wondering if we can/should provide Pat McCarthy with some talking points in support of the e-cig public places component? I’m not sure that the “duck” comment is very strong and that message will hold much weight.

 

[Vocalek]

Hmm... Now I'm a "smarty pants."

Actually, no, an e-cigarette does not have the potential to emit harmful particles. The health board appears to be confused over the difference between smoke and vapor. Smoke is created when a substance is burned. The process of combustion creates harmful tar, poisonous gasses such as carbon monoxide, and particles of ash. When tobacco is burned, about 4,000 new chemicals are created, many of which are toxic or carcinogenic. In contrast, vaporization is a physical process, not a chemical process like combustion. No particles are created, and no new chemicals are created. It's a basic rule of physics: vaporization changes the state of matter from a liquid into a gas. The liquid begins with 3 simple substances that are generally recognized as safe (GRAS) by the FDA: propylene glycol (the chemical used in fog machines), water, and flavoring. Nicotine is optional. If present, it makes up perhaps 2% of the 1/4 teaspoon of liquid in the cartridge. The nicotine is 99% absorbed by the user before being exhaled. Bottom line: vapor is not dangerous to bystanders. Effect on users? Over 90% of consumers report improved breathing, lung function, and stamina. For links to surveys, research, and lab tests visit casaa.org.

Read more: Tacoma-Pierce County health officials take hard look at electronic cigarettes | Government / Politics - The News Tribune

 

[Jacinda222]

Hmm... Now I'm a "smarty pants."

Lol! Is that better or worse than being "snarky"?