From Newsweek writer re. BAT Vype e-cigarette

[djsvapour]

There is also an error in your statement about Europe proposing to limit eliquid strength to 20 mg/ml. If this limit is in place, I don't believe that would be an issue with many vapers. With the third generation devices, more powerful wattage, sub-ohm coils, this concentration will be more than sufficient. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence from users here that with those devices, they will use much lower strength juices since the nicotine delivery is much more efficient.

It's a good point. If users can keep their higher powered devices, 20mg is not too bad (in general terms, but not for 100% of users). Trouble is; if the tanks available to buy are too harshly regulated, we could easily end of back where we started. <20mg in a cheap non-refillable tank under 2ml will send many back to smoking if they can't stay on top of the Nicotine.

 

[djsvapour]

One thing did cross my mind about statistics.

...let's say a 2nd generation e-cig really does create 35-72% higher nicotine in the blood stream, that figure kind of gives the impression that cig-a-likes might work for some folk...

The important statistic *for me* is that almost nobody I know quit 100% (switched 100%) with cig-a-likes. A product that doesn't really provide something useful is basically not a good product.

Too many people are still dual fuelling using products like Vype, Vuse, Njoy, E-Lites... too many by far. These, as I have said, are the "lost" e-cig buyers, the ones who will either go back to smoking or dual fuel at a tremendous cost and believing e-cigs are just hype and not effective.

Where I work, we employ people from £7 ph to 5 figure annual salaries. Interesting the note, the 'lowly' employees who say they tried e-cigs and felt they were useless are all still smokers. 100% of them, actually. I do not know of one who uses Nicolites or 10 Motives and have quit smoking.

On the other hand, of the 20 or so known smokers in the upper earnings category (those that declared) at least half of them no longer smoke and use e-cigs.

This isn't co-incidence... it is a reflection of the products they bought and tried (and their intelligence/education, presumably).1st generation products barely work. They are a distraction from the real potential of e-cigarettes.

 

[pbxbelmar]

Simon, would you please post a link to the article (if there is a link) or let us know when you've published?

Very interested to see it!

 

[Simon Akam]

Yep, certainly will post link to the piece when it runs (probably in April). Really appreciate everyone's contributions here...

 

[edyle]

Folks, thanks as before for your well informed posts.

I have now drafted a summary of the technological development of the e-cig over the past decade and the parallel regulatory dance. My feeling is this is very bare bones at the moment; I would like include more technological distinctions between first and second gen. then I have at the moment (inc. voltage, wattage etc), personal experiences of use of various devices, and potentially the US as well as the EU regulatory situation. Suggestions gratefully received. In particular I need to give a few examples of first gen products, currently marketed x, and y: Also if there is anything incorrect here, esp. on technical issues, please do let me know:

First generation e-cigarettes mirrored conventional cigarettes in form and shape, hence the common alternate name of the ‘cig-a-like.’ These devices used sealed reservoirs of nicotine solution that could be not be refilled, their batteries could usually not be recharged. They were, in effect, single use products. Examples in the UK included x and y. The adherence to c-cigarette dimensions imposed major constraint on the size of the battery with consequent impacts on performance. Many smokers found – and indeed still find – cigalikes fundamentally unsatisfying products.

A second-generation device – again, broadly speaking – is distinguished by its reusable nature, a battery that can be recharged, and reservoir that can be refilled with liquid. At the Vapeshop Hungarian manager xx (name redacted), emitting huge clouds of Watermelon mint vapour as he spoke, pointed to the Joyetech 510 on sale here for £30, and the cCom-C Twist at £45 as examples of these devices. The option to use third party e-liquid led to a proliferation of flavour and juice; while these devices tended to be more expensive than cig-a-likes as upfront purchases their ‘open system’ nature and third party liquid makes them cheaper to use long term.

Third generation products are more elaborate still, often distinguished by wicks and atomisers that can be rebuilt when worn out (or coated, as is wont to happen, in carbonised vegetable glycol), and options to adjust the voltage and wattage. Many of these devices bear no physical resemblance to cigarettes whatsoever; instead they look like starter pistols, or microphones, or even, in the case of the Innokin iTaste 134, a Gatling gun. Many users say second and third generation devices provide a more satisfying vaping experience, and are more effective at helping them to wean themselves off conventional cigarettes. That finding is supported by a paper published in the scientific journal Nature last year, which showed new generation devices produced blood nicotine levels 35-72% higher than first generation devices, though delivery was still slower than with conventional cigarettes.

If that surmises the technological shift then the parallel regulatory dance is complicated too. Again, e-cigarettes left field entrance is germane, as unexpected arrivals, for some time regulators just did not know what to do with them. In Europe it initially looked like medicines regulation was the most likely path. However, the EU’s second tobacco products directive, which was approved in February 2014 and will come into effect in May 2016, will instead provide two routes to certification, first as a tobacco product, and secondly as medical device. The tobacco products will be limited to a maximum eliquid strength of 20mg/millitre, an amount many vapors believe to be too low for effective smoking cessation, and will be forbidden from some forms of advertising, notably television. Taking the medical device route will require a costly and complex regulatory approval process, which is likely to be out of the reach of the many independent players who have pioneered the market thus far.

Regardless of first, second or third generation, what we call ecigarettes are actually miniature fog machines..
I have a feeling that's not clear enough; it is a literal statement, not a figurative poetic description.
The ecigs are literally, in the technical sense, in terms what what liquid is used in them and how the operate, miniature fog machines.

I am pointing that out because it is relevant for regulatory purposes.

 

[edyle]

I believe there is an error in the description of a first generation device. First generation devices, the cig-alikes, have both disposable (non-rechargeable) and rechargeable versions. The first generation is distinguished by the cartomizers, the cartridges with a e-liquid soaked sponge.

There is also an error in your statement about Europe proposing to limit eliquid strength to 20 mg/ml. If this limit is in place, I don't believe that would be an issue with many vapers. With the third generation devices, more powerful wattage, sub-ohm coils, this concentration will be more than sufficient. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence from users here that with those devices, they will use much lower strength juices since the nicotine delivery is much more efficient.

It may not affect many existing vapers, but it will stop some smokers from converting to vape.

 

[djsvapour]

OH, HOW I LAUGHED

BAT have said this... today, in the London Evening Standard.

He said: “We don’t think we’ve come late to this. The key is getting the product right. Consumers seem to trial the products and don’t seem happy with it.


LOL

If you design an eGo model e-cig and pretend it's a mod beater, and then make it vape at 3.2 watts , you need special a mention for being... well... stupid.

Ignoramuses. Since when does a 3.2 watt vape work for anybody...? That makes a Nicolites seem like a cloud machine.

 

[Susan~S]

Jerry Abelman, director of corporate and regulatory affairs (BAT) went on to say: "We think we understand best what consumers want and are after. It is a fragmented market but I think a company such as ours is particularly well placed."

I wonder what he was smokin!



Here's the article from The Independent: British American Tobacco Sales Fall

 

[Shirtbloke]

I think it's called cognitive dissonance.

 

[djsvapour]

I think it's called cognitive dissonance.

It's also known as blind arrogance.

One of the top 5 UK vendors had a customer in his store with a Vype e-Pen... oh, hold on, you probably know this story... he said it made almost no vapour at all.

I like your expression though... might use that with my boss.

 

[Shirtbloke]

Dilbert has the explanation.......

 

[pbxbelmar]

Anyone heard anything about the article? Simon said probably April...

 

[Shirtbloke]

Just did a Google search for it - nothing yet.

 

[Susan~S]

Anyone heard anything about the article? Simon said probably April...

Just did a Google search for it - nothing yet.

I even check his website and nothing there either. He last logged on ECF on 3/23.

 

[pbxbelmar]

Thnks Susan! Do you have a link for his website?

 

[WillyZee]

Hi Simon,

Having read through this thread some things come to mind:

1. Big tobacco and big Pharma are putting together an entry to the ecig market in an attempt to save their revenue stream.
2. Given the obsolete technology in this device you're researching they really aren't interested in providing a viable quitting device for the masses.
3. The UK regulating vaping out of reach of the masses will create effects similar to the American Prohibition of alcohol - people will still vape, it will just go black market and create a whole new crop of 'law breakers' for the government to deal with (if they so choose). I don't know a single vaper who has quit smoking who will want to give up vaping to go back to smoking.

There are currently multitudes of simple devices more effective (both in cost and vaping satisfaction) than what BAT seems to be offering. To kill an emerging market which has such a high potential to save lives, for the sake of protecting the tobacco and pharmaceutical lobby's profits is collusion of the worst kind between government and money-grubbing industry.

lets bump this awesome post

 

[Shirtbloke]

Thnks Susan! Do you have a link for his website?

Here's his website.....
Simon Akam
Twitter feed.....
https://twitter.com/simonakam
And Newsweek page.....
Simon Akam

 

[pbxbelmar]

Thanks Shirtbloke. Went to the website link and it comes up blank? Is it ad loaded?

 

[Susan~S]

Thanks Shirtbloke. Went to the website link and it comes up blank? Is it ad loaded?

No ads. Just pics of some of his articles.

 

[Shirtbloke]

Thanks Shirtbloke. Went to the website link and it comes up blank? Is it ad loaded?

It's one of those (crappy imo) websites that loads up loads of scripts and stuff before you can actually see anything. These sites are in a pain in the neck if you're on a slow connection (like me.)