Hana Modz awarded $300k in copyright battle

[dr g]

What I cannot understand is this: Why doesn't Evolve go after the Chinese that make the dna knock-off? Is it because it is not an actual clone and just something very, very similar? Or is it impossible to sue a Chinese manufacturer if you are a small USA manufacturer? Is it something else? I just don't get it.

Different countries, different laws. The control points are at the borders (customs) and at the resellers (counterfeit/infringement litigation).

 

[edyle]

You are incorrectly assuming a lot.
1. Hanna doesn't have the utility patent or copyright on any part of the mod itself.
2. The shop will file BK and reopen under another name.
All perfectly legal. Can't get blood from a turnip.
3. Business as usual in China.

The issue is the TRADEMARK, not a patent.

 

[JohnnyDill]

I have been reading up on this subject of suing a Chinese manufacturer, from America for instance. They will not recognize the lawsuit. {These manufacturers have no assets in America.} You can, however, hire a Chinese attorney and sue them, IN CHINA. Good luck with that!

 

[dr g]

The real action is going to start when importers start getting shipments seized.

 

[edyle]

Do they think this is going to entice people to decide to go ahead and pay $200 for their mods? Lol, some victory. It's not like it's going to get them more sales.


Sitting here waiting for my cloned Paragon, Nemesis, Pollux and Freakshow to show up with a cloned Magma and Tugboat sitting in front of me

It's a little bit different story with Hana because of the circuitry and board that's inside, but $200 for a metal tube? Don't think so, elitists can suck it

No; its going to cut down on the constant phone calls they probably receive from people who thought they had a "Hana Modz" product and wanted to call the manufacturer to ask a question or fix a problem.

 

[Woofer]

No matter what, as long as people are buying other people will be selling, end of story.
This judgment is a tempest in a tea cup.

 

[crxess]

One thing that you do find on fasttech on some products that USED TO BE listed as brand name styled products but now name has changed is:


So even if "China does NOT recognize international copyright law" which I do not believe is correct but have no wish to debate,
you can find evidence of the backlash of selling Trademarked products on fasttech's site.

Nothing to do with Trademark infringement OR CLONES. Everything to do with EBAY/PayPal being linked.
Vendors filing E-Cig related Product complaints to keep ebay sellers from undercutting their prices. Manufacturers doing the same to uphold MSRP(Price fixing) and CYA with vendors - while still allowing wholesale purchases by China Vendors.
Still a 2-3 minute work around to get the product via Paypal/FT Gift certificate.

 

[brekec88]

Wow -

Shy of actually using lead and/or mercury (or something truly exotic like uranium, I suppose), I think it would be very difficult indeed to have "crap metal" create any "fumes" at the energy levels we're using. In fact, I'd pay to see any actual, verifiable evidence of "crap steel" make any kind of harmful byproduct at the applicable energy and temperatures.

Also - to say that "A replica of a high-end device will not be produced with the same quality metals" is erroneous. In many cases these so called high end devices are produced with rather cheap materials, and are sold at very high prices due to the precision in machining and the cost of prototyping / development. There's a fair bit of profit markup in there too for no other reason than it seems the market will bear it.

Your points 3-6 though, are right on the money.

Intellectually, I do not like the basic premise of counterfeiting, nor even 1:1 replicas without logos. In many, many cases these are just metal tubes, it's not that hard to make a new one that's different enough to not be a direct copy. Even in Hana's case, they bought a bunch of aluminum boxes and put the evolv chip in them. Whoop dee. The logo was the dealbreaker for this case.

Not liking the idea of counterfeiting doesn't, on the other hand make me delusional enough to believe that this is some magic watershed moment when it's all going to start falling apart. If you believe that, then I have a great deal for ya on this bridge...

Nor does it mean that I think there was any good that actually came of this.

I don't know about releasing toxic fumes but I can physically feel the difference in cheaper brass, copper and ss on clones.

 

[brekec88]

......10char........

 

[Rossum]

What I cannot understand is this: Why doesn't Evolve go after the Chinese that make the DNA knock-off? Is it because it is not an actual clone and just something very, very similar? Or is it impossible to sue a Chinese manufacturer if you are a small USA manufacturer? Is it something else? I just don't get it.

There are three things Evolv could go after.

1) If a clone of their board claims to be an "EVOLV DNA" when it boots up, that's clear-cut trademark infringement, although this is difficult to pursue in a federal court unless the mark is registered. Early clones behaved like that, but this practice seem to have largely stopped. I wonder why?

2) If a clone of their board uses a copy of their firmware, that would be copyright infringement. From what we've seen so far, it doesn't appear that clone boards actually contain a rip of Evolv's firmware.

3) Evolv has a patent that appears to cover variable wattage control for e-cig applications. Patent infringement suits are notoriously expensive to pursue, particularly if the party being sued has the resources to mount a defense and challenges the validity of you patent. In pursuing such a suit, you risk not only the legal costs, but also the possibility that you patent will invalidated, which would mean any existing license revenue stream (such as from Provape?) or purchase agreements (such as with Innokin) based on that patent would come to an end.

In any case, suing Chinese manufacturers in China is unlikely to be effective. It would have to be done here, against an importer or reseller, with some US presence and assets.

 

[Technonut]

I agree in fact I think this much is enough... create a high quality piece that is reasonably priced and available.
I agree that Hana has a right to exclusive use of their trademark.
But if I go one step beyond that and look at the mod... good grief 250 bux.
I agree that Hana has a right to sell at whatever price they wish.

Except the Dna 40 I guess that everything that makes a Hana mod is sourced from China, probably assembled in China?
The margins seem pretty big and that is what makes them vulnerable.
More value = less clones.

Where do folks come up with this? Hana Modz are made in the USA.. The enclosures are milled in the USA from 6061 aluminum billet.. Their cost has come down to what I would consider "reasonable" in today's authentic market ($179.00 for the V3 DNA 40)..

In fact, I just received one of their discounted V4d (dual 18650) DNA 40 mods for $179.00. I had issues with their choice of 510 connectors in the V3 DNA 30, but they have changed to much more sturdy, spring-loaded replacements now. I am quite pleased with the fit, finish, and quality of this V4d, and feel like I received my money's worth...

The warranty service is worth something also.. Hana Modz offers a 1 year warranty on their devices (6 months for discounted models). I have used the warranty before in the past, and while frustrating at times, I did get the device repaired here in the States, and returned. That's the bottom-line. Many of the vendors out there selling Chinese devices are only offering 90, 60, or even paltry 30 day manufacturing defect only warranties on many other devices.

https://www.hanamodz.com/

 

[stevegmu]

I think he confused them with VAporShark, which is made in China, except the board...

 

[Woofer]

Just priced a V4M DNA 40 it is 240.00 with the Hana Modz custom engraving.

I think that every individual will decide if price is reasonable to then or not, that is not my point.
I am saying at that price (240) they leave a lot of room for cloners to make a buck.
More value = less clones.

FWIW 90% of my current gear is original.
Cheers

 

[Technonut]

Just priced a V4M DNA 40 it is 240.00 with the Hana Modz custom engraving.

I think that every individual will decide if price is reasonable to then or not, that is not my point.
I am saying at that price (240) they leave a lot of room for cloners to make a buck.
More value = less clones.

FWIW 90% of my current gear is original.
Cheers

The V4M is currently $199.00 direct from Hana Modz...

https://www.hanamodz.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=72

 

[Woofer]

The V4M is currently $199.00 direct from Hana Modz...

https://www.hanamodz.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=72

https://www.hanamodz.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72&products_id=231

STARTING AT: $199.00
PLEASE CHOOSE:
Custom Front Engraving ( +$20.00 )
Custom Side Engraving ( +$30.00 )
Custom Front & Side Engraving ( +$40.00 )

Just priced a V4M DNA 40 it is 240.00 with the Hana Modz custom engraving.

opps I mean 239

 

[Technonut]

https://www.hanamodz.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72&products_id=231

STARTING AT: $199.00
PLEASE CHOOSE:
Custom Front Engraving ( +$20.00 )
Custom Side Engraving ( +$30.00 )
Custom Front & Side Engraving ( +$40.00 )



opps I mean 239

The custom engraving is totally an individual option, not representative of the base retail cost. It should be more expensive.

EDIT: Call around, and price-out some machine work here in the States.. Figure in paying staff, rent, utilities, insurance, cost of boards / switches, anodizing, folks to solder the boards in, assembly, etc..

Sure, the Chinese can produce inferior copies cheaper. Do I want one? Nope.. I wouldn't care if they were $10.00. For others, they are great. As long as folks are not smoking, and are happy with their purchases, enjoy, and vape-on! 1:1 counterfeits are a different ball-game though IMO.. They serve no purpose other than to be potentially deceptive to folks who may not know better, and actually think that they're purchasing an authentic from unscrupulous vendors / sellers.. Why someone would want one with logos / SN's, knowing it's a counterfeit, is beyond me.. There are plenty of clones available without them, and they function exactly the same..


EDIT: I'm not biased against Chinese devices either... My go-to ATM is the YiHi SXmini. Fantastic device.. Great quality in both build, and electronics.. The price? $189.99. One seems to get what one pays for.. Even with Chinese devices.

Apologies to the OP for straying a little OT..

On-Topic: Hana Modz protected their rights, and sent out a message.. Good for them! I'm big on defending any rights and privileges we may have as a people. I once successfully sued the Mayor, Town Council, and a Police Officer in a small, jerk-water town for trampling on mine while just passing through some years back..

 

[dr g]

Where do folks come up with this? Hana Modz are made in the USA.. The enclosures are milled in the USA from 6061 aluminum billet.. Their cost has come down to what I would consider "reasonable" in today's authentic market ($179.00 for the V3 DNA 40)..

In fact, I just received one of their discounted V4d (dual 18650) DNA 40 mods for $179.00. I had issues with their choice of 510 connectors in the V3 DNA 30, but they have changed to much more sturdy, spring-loaded replacements now. I am quite pleased with the fit, finish, and quality of this V4d, and feel like I received my money's worth...

The warranty service is worth something also.. Hana Modz offers a 1 year warranty on their devices (6 months for discounted models). I have used the warranty before in the past, and while frustrating at times, I did get the device repaired here in the States, and returned. That's the bottom-line. Many of the vendors out there selling Chinese devices are only offering 90, 60, or even paltry 30 day manufacturing defect only warranties on many other devices.

https://www.hanamodz.com/

And this is exactly why anyone involved with the clone hana market should have their asses sued off. The distortion of the market for their products absolutely costs Hana a huge amount of money and threatens their ability to remain an American manufacturer. People have no appreciation of the value of things anymore.

 

[brekec88]

No matter what, as long as people are buying other people will be selling, end of story.
This judgment is a tempest in a tea cup.

LMAO you can say the same thing about hard drugs...still doesn't make it right.

Also...Judgment is not a temptest in a tea cup (even though I'm not a 100% sure what that means), stealing peoples design and trademarked logo is wrong. People can spin or justify it however but it is strait up theft of physical and intellectual property and if vaping wasn't a new and emerging fringe market a lot of vape shops would be getting raided and owners jailed no different than counterfeit purse and clothing shops.

 

[brekec88]

Just priced a V4M DNA 40 it is 240.00 with the Hana Modz custom engraving.

I think that every individual will decide if price is reasonable to then or not, that is not my point.
I am saying at that price (240) they leave a lot of room for cloners to make a buck.
More value = less clones.

FWIW 90% of my current gear is original.
Cheers

Price is IRRELEVANT. Just because a person don't agree with the price does not justify buying counterfeit goods. Just because BMWs are over priced doesn't give Ford the right to use their logo.

It might make room for a Chinese clone company to make money but is sure as heck don't make it ok for people to sell them. They can tell themselves that it does....but it doesn't and we all honestly know that.

 

[smokinGAVIN]

I like this turn of events. Maybe this will start a bandwagon of suits that will in turn lessen the importation and selling of clones. Authentic makers will keep on innovating and maybe clone makers will start innovating too and start selling their own designs. Wishful thinking....