Hana Modz awarded $300k in copyright battle

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Dzaw

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I applaud Hana for moving this issue forward. The first one through the wall always gets bloody.

Opinions Only. I won't argue. :)

1. No logos is the way to go. Until that ends as well. Next to electronics, this is one of the only
markets I've seen where you can walk into a B&M, and the counterfeits are openly displayed, and sold as inventory.
Blows my mind. A replica with a logo is a counterfeit. Period.
Also consider that it's probably illegal (mail fraud in the USA?) to pay business taxes on counterfeits.
2. No counterfeiter can, or will, guarantee the quality of the materials. A replica of a high-end device will not be produced
with the same quality metals, and if they say it is ... how would you believe them anyway? Bad steel, bad silver, bad copper,
bad brass, and bad gold is harmful. We stopped smoking because it's poison. You think inhaling fumes from pot
metal won't kill you? Think again.
3. Yes, it's not hard to push electricity from point A to point B, even using crap metal. If the voltage drop on your counterfeit
is better than my original ... I could care less. The choice to own what we want is all of ours. If you are happy, so am I.
4. Counterfeiters will produce replicas with no logos if that's what the distributors/retailers ask for. Meaning, to change
the market, and ask for replicas.
5. The majority of mod builders are small space craftspeople; and not in a position to "lawyer up" in the first place.
The reason you have to buy counterfeit clothing, purses, watches, etc. from behind a curtain in a back room off of
Canal Street (enter your local black market here), is the companies being ripped off have legal teams that handle this stuff.
6. If a designer/builder wants to sell a nifty e-cig for $5000.00, that's up to them. It's a niche within a niche.

- I'll admit right now that I have a borrowed no logo replica in my possession this week. Would I pay nearly $300.00
for the original? Yes. Why? Because that's how much the builder sells it for. I guess "elitists" pay retail.(?)


Wow -

Shy of actually using lead and/or mercury (or something truly exotic like uranium, I suppose), I think it would be very difficult indeed to have "crap metal" create any "fumes" at the energy levels we're using. In fact, I'd pay to see any actual, verifiable evidence of "crap steel" make any kind of harmful byproduct at the applicable energy and temperatures.

Also - to say that "A replica of a high-end device will not be produced with the same quality metals" is erroneous. In many cases these so called high end devices are produced with rather cheap materials, and are sold at very high prices due to the precision in machining and the cost of prototyping / development. There's a fair bit of profit markup in there too for no other reason than it seems the market will bear it.

Your points 3-6 though, are right on the money.

Intellectually, I do not like the basic premise of counterfeiting, nor even 1:1 replicas without logos. In many, many cases these are just metal tubes, it's not that hard to make a new one that's different enough to not be a direct copy. Even in Hana's case, they bought a bunch of aluminum boxes and put the evolv chip in them. Whoop dee. The logo was the dealbreaker for this case.

Not liking the idea of counterfeiting doesn't, on the other hand make me delusional enough to believe that this is some magic watershed moment when it's all going to start falling apart. If you believe that, then I have a great deal for ya on this bridge...

Nor does it mean that I think there was any good that actually came of this.
 

Dzaw

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What's important is that next year when you see a "Hana Modz" 100 watt temperature controlled mod at a vape shop for a pretty decent price, you can be confident that it's a genuine Hana Modz box and not some cheap knockoff.

It is really US, the customer's that benefit

I wish it were so, but it just isn't

Illvapes is just a drop in a very, very large bucket. It's going to take more than this one suit to tip the bucket over.
 

Dzaw

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By that logic, I can sell you a billion dollars of counterfeit us dollars, then when you go buying stuff with it you claim innocence because you didn't manufacture the counterfeit us dollars.

Claim innocence? no. Barter my testimony against the person who -did- produce the counterfeits for a favorable plea deal, absolutely..

Irrelevant and radically oversimplified analogy that utterly fails to address the realities at play in the actual case being discussed.
 

edyle

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I can't speak to whether or not Illvapes was trying to fool anyone, but a quick google search shows at least one youtube that was up as "Hana Modz clone preview" associated with Illvapes.

The shop may well have been trying to pass them off as authentic at their actual retail location, I just don't know, being on the east coast.

I'd like to see the same. That's why I grind the logos off of my clones. My brass nemmy clone and brass tobh clone are both logo free. However, the "generic" non 1:1 clones are just too hit or miss in the Q/A department.

Also, unless I'm very much mistaken, Hana will now have to fight very hard to protect that special trade mark. The problem with IP laws is that you cannot simply decide to overlook even a small infraction. They're going to have to similarly go after any/every seller of counterfeit Hana products that they become aware of, or surrender their right to go after any of them at all.

Again, the little shop suffers. The actual criminal laughs all the way to the bank.

Pointless and destructive lawsuit. Not a win/win, its a lose/lose.

Once the big sellers like fasttech find themselves holding bucketloads of "Hana Modz" Logoed devices, they're probably going to scrape off those logos;
I've seen a couple items change over time, like a heron clone and a squape reloaded clone which they now describe as 'triangle windows rta'
 

Dzaw

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Once the big sellers like fasttech find themselves holding bucketloads of "Hana Modz" Logoed devices, they're probably going to scrape off those logos;
I've seen a couple items change over time, like a heron clone and a squape reloaded clone which they now describe as 'triangle windows rta'

I would be happy to eat crow if that happens. Personally, I don't think it will. I've been wrong before.
 

Dzaw

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100 simultaneous federal raids on B&Ms selling counterfeits would send a message...

Really Steve, we don't need any attention from big brother. Really.

Besides, don't you think Uncle Sam's got more important things to do? As big as the bucket may be, it's just a bucket, and last time I checked, my uncle Sam's got some oceans to deal with.
 

snork

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if by qualified, you mean: Am I a bar certified atty practicing in the area of intellectual property? Then no, I am not qualified on that level. A few years back I was tangentially associated with a craftsman who made a one off replica of something from a fiction novel for a customer. The novelist found out and had to file suit. I watched the relatively ugly response from that community, until the craftsman in question had his lawyer give us all a bit of an education in the relevant bits of case law. I can't offhand remember the exact cases, but my analysis in prior posts summed it up.

The settlement in the case I watched unfold was the customer had to return the replica, the craftsman had to return his payment, and could then either keep or gift the replica (or destroy it, if he were so inclined). He opted to then give it free of charge to the customer (iirc).

I was actually impressed that the craftsman involved ended up with nothing but good will towards the author, who had to defend his copyright. He had no choice, some member of the community was a friend of the novelist, and sent him an email about the replica, complete with pictures. Even that email was sent not knowing the ramifications, it was a "Hey check out what this guy's doing - how cool is that!?" kind of email. The craftsman wanted to fight it, but his own lawyer explained it pretty thoroughly.

The final breakdown stuck with me after that as a pretty straightforward (even if it is of somewhat questionable logic, I can understand why it might nonetheless be the case)legal principal: Once you are aware of an infringement on your intellectual property, a failure to defend it can be used as a valid defense for any subsequent infringement on that same property.

What a cluster that debacle turned out to be - the vitriol and bile that community was spewing in the author's direction for the suit was ridiculous. The Napster reference came out of that discussion, and a lot of people ate a lot of crow when they were educated on just how tied the author's hands were.
Thank you. That's more than I know, and I at least have a reference point.
 

stevegmu

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Really Steve, we don't need any attention from big brother. Really.

Besides, don't you think Uncle Sam's got more important things to do? As big as the bucket may be, it's just a bucket, and last time I checked, my uncle Sam's got some oceans to deal with.

They raid shops in NYC selling fake Nikes and fake electronics, what's the difference?
 

JohnnyDill

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What I cannot understand is this: Why doesn't Evolve go after the Chinese that make the DNA knock-off? Is it because it is not an actual clone and just something very, very similar? Or is it impossible to sue a Chinese manufacturer if you are a small USA manufacturer? Is it something else? I just don't get it. :confused:
 

edyle

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The Chinese dont care and wont stop. They might change to a slightly different font, if they do anything at all.

That's exactly what they should be doing in the first place!
Make a Mana Hodz !
The big problem has always been the Trademark and Logo.

I don't mind buying a kayfun clone that's labelled as a kayfun; but the Svoemesto Logo is another matter.
Same goes for my Magma clones; I don't mind the "Magma" printed on the item, but "Paradigm" is a company trademark.
Same goes for my nemesis clone: I don't mind the drawing thing, although I'd rather maybe a statue of liberty, the mona lisa, an angel of light instead of an angel of death; I don't mind the word "nemesis" printed all over it; but at the bottom where it says "By Atmomixani" - that's a problem.
 

stevegmu

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What I cannot understand is this: Why doesn't Evolve go after the Chinese that make the DNA knock-off? Is it because it is not an actual clone and just something very, very similar? Or is it impossible to sue a Chinese manufacturer if you are a small USA manufacturer? Is it something else? I just don't get it. :confused:

Pretty much, yes, impossible. Counterfeit iPhones are made and sold in China and even Apple- with, literally the most resources of just about any company in the world, can't stop it...
 

edyle

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The shops who hear about the lawsuit and judgement will stop selling them on their own, unless they aren't concerned about going bankrupt. The shops who sell them and any other counterfeit have absolutely no defense...

Once Svoemesto takes out a re-seller, then things will get interesting...

And further, once those same shops stop buying trademarked items from the factories in china, the china factories are going to scramble to get those logos off their stuff so they can offload them
 

edyle

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For all I know, they read this thread, look at each other and shrug, wondering why anyone thinks this is a big deal :laugh:

No, they looking at each other scratching their heads wondering how they gonna be able to distinguish the trademarks from the logos from necessary markings on various products. It's all just English to the Chinese.
 

NCCTC

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What I cannot understand is this: Why doesn't Evolve go after the Chinese that make the DNA knock-off? Is it because it is not an actual clone and just something very, very similar? Or is it impossible to sue a Chinese manufacturer if you are a small USA manufacturer? Is it something else? I just don't get it. :confused:

Because it's a shoddy "clone". They talk about it (a little) in this interview. Around 35-37 minutes.
PBusardo Video - Visit to Evolv
 

edyle

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I think its safe to say that 99.99999999% of beginning vapers couldn't even name a $200 mod or $100 atty, let alone know how to or even want to use such things as a starter device. So sorry that argument is invalid.




China does NOT recognize international copyright law. Its not only not feasible, but impossible. If Apple can not stop cheap iphone clones you think Hana Modz can stop cloning?

You make it sound like poor Ill Vapes...they knowingly ordered a bunch of 1:1 exact copies with Logos and advertised them as so. How is this OK at all?!?

If I buy a 1:1 Nike hat clone (or insert any other trademarked product) and try to sell it for a profit that is wrong and illegal. But since some one wants to by knock off vape gear on the cheap that looks exactly like an authentic it's suddenly ok? Its not acceptable in any other consumer products in our society...why should this be any different.

If you can't afford authentic gear there are PLENTY of other non clone devices out there ( Sigelei, MVP, iStick). Heck Vaporshark is selling the VS DNA 30 for $69, Erlkonigin makes the Erlprinz for around $50. There are plenty of other options on the market so there really is no excuse for buying counterfeit goods (vaping or any other kind) besides that you want the looks, features and functions of a certain device but don't want to pay for it.

One thing that you do find on fasttech on some products that USED TO BE listed as brand name styled products but now name has changed is:
Important information and restrictions:

•PayPal is unavailable for this item due to their AUP policies.
•You may order this product by credit card. Availability varies by country -- please refer to the the check out process.

So even if "China does NOT recognize international copyright law" which I do not believe is correct but have no wish to debate,
you can find evidence of the backlash of selling Trademarked products on fasttech's site.
 

Strings

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I've had some fairly in depth discussions with the lawyer who handles BACA's trademark: Dzaw has summed things up pretty well

Knowingly let one perp get away without going after them, you lose the right to go after others

As for the "clone wars": I'm ambivalent about it. As in anything else, if there's a market for a product, someone will fill that need
 

edyle

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I didn't say it was at all ok.

I did say it was pointless and counterproductive.

How did Hana Modz get anything out of this excercise? They shot themselves in the foot for no reason than to punish one of the thousands of little fish. Why? Because they can't fight the big fish.


If a few people started going around with "Dzaw" nametags pretending to be Dzaw from New Hampshire, and people were complaining about "Dzaw" (you), and the shoddy work that "Dzaw" did, would you consider it pointless and counterproductive to expose one of them?
 

edyle

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The vamo's original design was VERY much so a cheap attempt to clone a provari. Yes it was the entryway to RMS but it wasn't very good (especially when they first came out). I don't think it was worth it at all, vamo was around 50 dollars when it came out Provari was 179 considering the rattlesnake chip china put in there doesn't seem like a very good value to me. As to how many it sold yes it sold more than the Provari, but that has alot to do with consumer mentaility, people back then were buying cheap and buying mods over and over again, while my handed down 2009 v1 Provari still works.

I think it's the Sigelei zmax you are thinking about, not the vamo.

The old zmax certainly has a resemblance to the provari; solid construction, single button interface arrangement; male threaded bottom cap
 
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