Home testing of e-liquid strength (DIY)

[kinabaloo]

I like that you posted this here Kurt.
I sincerely hope we don't see home testing kits become a vendor witch hunt flaming pre-mixed juice vendors for lower nic then paid for. Just saying.

Indeed. I have already said about unflavored in the first post.

If a vendor's liquids (unflavored) are reported as wrong and this was found my several people, only then could it reasonably be thought of as a possible issue.

On reflection, changed 'any vendor can be called out' to 'any issues can be detected much earlier'. Much better I think; the other wording was a bit sinister.

Regarding flavored liquids, lets gather some more data first to see how many might give a low result and if they can be easily listed.

Luckily those with added acids all give a null result, not a low result.

So far, afaik, there hasn't been a report of a flavored liquid giving a low result because of the flavoring. There almost certainly will be some, but we shouldn't write off the test's usefullness for that just yet.

I can add a bold warning to the first post (so it can't be missed) like this :

NOTE : A low-strength reading in flavored liquid can be a result of interference from the flavoring. It probably does not mean that the nicotine is actually low.
If you find a liquid like this let us know so we can keep tabs on those flavors for which the test will not work.

CAUTION : As always when working nicotine, take care to prevent spills and splashes; particularly of the nicotine liquid. Ideally gloves, long sleeves and eye-protection should be used.

+++

btw, the person I had in mind in the post on the other thread was Brad, not anyone on the forum. I thought that was clear. The point was to convince Brad that the danger was real.

And I have been clear that our intention is be constructive. Highlight issues but then help solve them (but the problem has to be admitted and taken seriously first of course).

 

[Spazmelda]

I've got some citric acid that I bought with the intention of trying it out in some juices. I haven't used it yet, but I can set up a little experiment to see how much x amount effects the results. Hm, I don't think that I know what concentration the citric acid is though, that could be a problem. It's just some I bought at the same store where I got some LorAnn flavorings.

ETA: Although I guess if I was better at chemistry I could just mathematically figure out what the effect of citric acid would be. DH could probably figure it out, but he's starting to get a little tired of my questions.

 

[TTK]

You want to bump the amount of the nic, not the water. The only thing the water does is allow the mixture to be easier to work with. You could do it with out water, but near impossible to mix especiall if it VG.

Do the test, start off with 2mg nic (from the 60mg unflavored nic base), add 6 drops blue, then fill with water to 4.0 ml mark on cylinder. Do the test, then subtract 4 from the final volume, then mulitple that number by 9.735. (If the nic is close to 48, total volume in the cyliner will be about 8.7ml. If its close to 60mg, the final volume will be around 10.1ml, just off the scale of the cylinder.)

Isn't the multiplier 19.47, not 9.73?

 

[mjradik]

Isn't the multiplier 19.37, not 9.73?

The mulitplier of the original test is 19.47. In the revised test, which is posted, is 9.375. The reason why I stated the multiplier of the revised test of 9.735 is because we are DOUBLING the amount of nic used to test to 2ml instead of 1ml. Since were doing that, we need to cut the multiplier in half. 19.47/2 = 9.735.

 

[kinabaloo]

I wil retry the vg60, 2ml.

That is why I don't bother mentioning the vendor I got the nic from that seems a level low, but do feel free to mention flavorings that do not appear to skew results.

I'm getting more nic base in the next week or two. If the vg base measures low again, then I will check with the source, see if they have any insight (eg, maybe they did the acid tweak Kurt had previously mentioned), or see if Kurt can take a look. If it tests to be the right level, then I shrug off the one low bottle, an honest human error that is in the safe direction.

I need to test some of my diy with other flavorings, interested in building a list of ones that don't seem to change results.

Agree with this approach.

Unflavored liquid really should be additive free with no acids either. That should be a standard.

From the figures, it's almost certainly a 'mislabel'. Added acid has so far found to make the titration impossible.

 

[kinabaloo]

The mulitplier of the original test is 19.47. In the revised test, which is posted, is 9.375. The reason why I stated the multiplier of the revised test of 9.735 is because we are DOUBLING the amount of nic used to test to 2ml instead of 1ml. Since were doing that, we need to cut the multiplier in half. 19.47/2 = 9.735.

Perhaps it's too trivial, but I could make an online calculator if you think it would be useful; something like this recipe one.

 

[TTK]

The mulitplier of the original test is 19.47. In the revised test, which is posted, is 9.375. The reason why I stated the multiplier of the revised test of 9.735 is because we are DOUBLING the amount of nic used to test to 2ml instead of 1ml. Since were doing that, we need to cut the multiplier in half. 19.47/2 = 9.735.

Got it. Thanks.

 

[AzPlumber]

Sounds like there is a lot of interest in at home testing and I just want to express that safety should be of up most importance when using these kits. A splash of some of this stuff in the eye could mean a trip to the E.R.. Always wear the proper safety equipment - eye protection, appropriate gloves and clothing (at least long sleeves). I know most won't have an emergency eye wash station/shower in the house, but a least be prepared should this stuff end up in someones eye.

The sprayer on a kitchen faucet set on cold water with very low pressure will do the same thing as a commercial eye wash station. Even a portable eye wash kit is better than nothing.

 

[markfm]

Two rounds of testing the vg60, using 2 ml. Still dialed in at 48mg.

No surprise

Back to trying other flavorings.

 

[mjradik]

Perhaps it's too trivial, but I could make an online calculator if you think it would be useful; something like this recipe one.

Well you could. You would only need 2 values. The amount of nic, and amount of acid. I created a chart below.

http://www.eliquidtest.com/docs/acidchart.pdf

You notice all strengths are whole numbers, and no decimals. Kurt told me decimals can't be used because the way the test is done, only 2 significant figures can be used. (Thanks Kurt)

 

[Kurt]

The mulitplier of the original test is 19.47. In the revised test, which is posted, is 9.375. The reason why I stated the multiplier of the revised test of 9.735 is because we are DOUBLING the amount of nic used to test to 2ml instead of 1ml. Since were doing that, we need to cut the multiplier in half. 19.47/2 = 9.735.

Eventually we will have them using moles, etc. Patience, Kurt, patience. Maybe I can produce a spreadsheet that has all the various values in it, like scuba's ejuice calculator. Then people can do it with muriatic acid (HCl) and whatever concentration they can get.

And yes, the question of flavors and their effects is not at all straightforward. All sorts of notes out there: alcohols, acids, amines, thiols, all with affects that I wouldn't be able to predict quantitatively.

Also, IMHO, the extra water is not only there to make it easier to work with, VG and PG are both more acidic than water, so the more the original juice is diluted, the less effect this will have on the final results, and the bottom line is bringing the volume of it up is just better titration technique.

 

[Kurt]

Well you could. You would only need 2 values. The amount of nic, and amount of acid. I created a chart below.

http://www.eliquidtest.com/docs/acidchart.pdf

You notice all strengths are whole numbers, and no decimals. Kurt told me decimals can't be used because the way the test is done, only 2 significant figures can be used. (Thanks Kurt)

Nice!! Very useful!!

 

[mjradik]

Sounds like there is a lot of interest in at home testing and I just want to express that safety should be of up most importance when using these kits. A splash of some of this stuff in the eye could mean a trip to the E.R.. Always wear the proper safety equipment - eye protection, appropriate gloves and clothing (at least long sleeves). I know most won't have an emergency eye wash station/shower in the house, but a least be prepared should this stuff end up in someones eye.

The sprayer on a kitchen faucet set on cold water with very low pressure will do the same thing as a commercial eye wash station. Even a portable eye wash kit is better than nothing.

Yes, safety should always be used, and is covered in the test procedures. However, the ironic part is that the nicotine is far more dangerous than the chemicals used in the test. Bromthyol blue is used in kiddie toy chemistry sets. The .12N acid is highly diluted, i.e. only 0.12% sulphuric acid. I'm sure it would sting if got in the eyes, but so does lemon juice. I'be gotton the acid on me... feels like water, maybe a little itching if anything. It does sting if gotton under the finger nails, or in the cudicle (sp?) where the finder name meets the finger..... but lemon juice stings alot more..

 

[kinabaloo]

Thinking about the cases of acidified liquid and where flvorings were affecting the titration ...

Interfering flavorings

An approach if one really want to get the strength would be to extract the nicotine from the liquid. This can be done by fliiping the nicotine into freebase form with a solution of sodium carbonate (made from bicarbonate). And emuslifying with an organic solvent such as mineral oil (not safe to vape but this is for the test) for a while. The nicotine will mostly migrate to the oil. Take the oil layer, add a little of the sulphuric acid and emulsify. The nicotine will now mostly be salted and migrate to the acid layer. The last step is the same as removing the acid. There could be a loss of alkaloid content in both partition steps.

Acidified e-liquids

To remove the acid without basifying the liquid use a non-soluble base that will create a non-soluble salt. Can't think of something suitable, but just itself not being soluble should work as the acid would react with the surface of the non-soluble base. Something like magnesium hydroxide. Once the liquid is neutralised, the excess base can be removed/filtered and the liquid tested. (Calcium hydroxide is even less soluble, but more caustic.)

There are a few problems here, so the result is unlikely to lead to a test result anywhere near accurate, but maybe it will spur a better idea.

 

[Kurt]

Well, the chemistry is sound, but not practical, to be honest. And if the flavors are interfering in a basic way, wouldn't flipping into mineral oil flip them too? Generally you finalize from the organic layer containing base form, but minerial oil have a BP of 200+ C, so its not going anywhere.

To be honest, I do not see a way of solving a flavoring issue here. Just too intractable. I think flavors like caramels and toffees will have less problem with this, but fruits are not going to behave. And the whole weak base/weeak acid amphoteric thing is enough to make my head spin. I think for now if we limit the discussions to unflavored nic, we will make more progress in getting people up to speed. Flavors at your own risk. Since this is the DIY forum, this should be completely reasonable. Just my opinion.

 

[kinabaloo]

Kurt - the idea is not to vaporise the oil, but flip back to an acidic solution.

Just thinking ahead. Would be nice if there was a simple way ...

"I tested 4 eliquids that had been made with this, using combinations of natures flavors caramel/cappuccino/vanilla/black cherry/hazelnut, seedman commercial concentrate, and tpa tobacco blend alc. I blend high flavor, 18 - 20%. The eliquids ranged from 16 - 24 mg/ml nominal. All 4 liquids tested to within about 1mg/ml of nominal, the particular flavorings I use didn't seen to skew results, and the results were consistent with my nic base being about 60 mg/ml." ~ markfm

Ambientech found that Rafalicious and Bobas (which I believe are something akin to RY4) also tested fine.

So many flavorings may have very little interference. There might just be a few that do. We haven't found any yet.

Would be good to get a report on the suspect ones : cinnamon, menthol, lemon (might be variations here)

And also standard-type tobacco flavors such dk-tab and RY4

 

[DVap]

While testing for TW some time back, flavor after flavor titrated on the money with only one exception, their French Pipe flavor. it was acidic to the point where the bromothymol blue indicator immediately turned yellow upon addition... obviously acidic.

 

[kinabaloo]

While testing for TW some time back, flavor after flavor titrated on the money with only one exception, their French Pipe flavor. it was acidic to the point where the bromothymol blue indicator immediately turned yellow upon addition... obviously acidic.

Thanks for that DVap; it fits with our present small sample.

Had some feedback that acidified liquids just don't seem so good, so maybe the salts dont liberate nicotine on heating as well as we once thought they might.

 

[kinabaloo]

I've got some citric acid that I bought with the intention of trying it out in some juices. I haven't used it yet, but I can set up a little experiment to see how much x amount effects the results. Hm, I don't think that I know what concentration the citric acid is though, that could be a problem. It's just some I bought at the same store where I got some LorAnn flavorings.

ETA: Although I guess if I was better at chemistry I could just mathematically figure out what the effect of citric acid would be. DH could probably figure it out, but he's starting to get a little tired of my questions.

As t is a solution you'll have to ask the vendor. I expect that even a tiny amount will ruin the titration. But go ahead and find out ...

 

[Switched]

I like that you posted this here Kurt.
I sincerely hope we don't see home testing kits become a vendor witch hunt flaming pre-mixed juice vendors for lower nic then paid for. Just saying.

Argument totally supported.

In the vid the liquid was an amber brown colour and not clear. IME this makes it extremely difficult to measure titration indicator colour. In the test we could definitely see the bromo blue colour when the distilled water was added to the sample (it was sitting on top the nic) not so evident thereafter, mind you we were viewing from the cam and not in person. Nonetheless, it was clearly stated that the test was for unaltered nic liquids. If anything (considering flavourings did not decrease PH) I would be tempted to increase the distilled water (dilute the colour) and use a slightly lower X factor for my calculations as described somewhere in these threads.