Houston, we have a problem...BE nic titration results

[salemgold]

Maybe some honesty saying I can't comment as per my attorneys would have worked. Getting all defensive saying it was impossible because base nicotine gets mixed at a separate facility under his control or better yet it would show up in his bookkeeping if it happened, was double talk. He was downright delusional and in denial. I didn't catch any sincere concern that more of this 270mg stuff could be out there. He was an idiot to go on that show to say what he did. He can fix all his QC problems, but I'd never buy from him again based on that performance. CEO, best nic, or not.

Well said. I am thinking that in the beginning of this whole thing Brad stated that it was impossible that anyone got above 100 mg nic because it was diluted down to 100 mgs before he even received it. Tonight it came out that he actually gets the 997 mg nic and dilutes it himself.

I am going to look for that comment because I am not 100% sure that he said it but I am fairly certain.

 

[cozzicon]

Dear Community, and I mean *everyone*.

While I'm not going to publicly post my views about the BE situation, I'd like to say a few things to the community.

First off, Thank you to Kurt, who on short notice, without much knowledge of me, and with 10 minutes preparation walked into what could have been a lion's den. I know in my short talks with him that he was concerned that someone might take him over the coals for his work. I am very impressed with him as a person, and grateful in the extreme for his contribution to the community as a whole.

Second, to Brad from Box Elder, who *did* walk into a lions den. At the very least you *showed up*. That takes a pretty big sized glandular endowment..

To the community in general:

Thank you. Just thank you.

Next week on my show I will be doing a tutorial on painting ceramic unicorns (by number) because it's just easier

Keep up the good fight! I need a v8!

 

[ChaosAffect]

Dear Community, and I mean *everyone*.

While I'm not going to publicly post my views about the BE situation, I'd like to say a few things to the community.

First off, Thank you to Kurt, who on short notice, without much knowledge of me, and with 10 minutes preparation walked into what could have been a lion's den. I know in my short talks with him that he was concerned that someone might take him over the coals for his work. I am very impressed with him as a person, and grateful in the extreme for his contribution to the community as a whole.

Second, to Brad from Box Elder, who *did* walk into a lions den. At the very least you *showed up*. That takes a pretty big sized glandular endowment..

To the community in general:

Thank you. Just thank you.

Next week on my show I will be doing a tutorial on painting ceramic unicorns (by number) because it's just easier

Keep up the good fight! I need a v8!

Hope you feel better, Coz.

 

[kinabaloo]

Really looks to me like incomplete mixing is the issue. They add the correct quantity of base liquid to the concentrated nic but maybe use no equipment to ensure that the mix is churned for a suffient period of time to ensure a homogenous result. Ideally this would all occur under an inert atmosphere too. Basically the equipent is simply a drum with paddles inside that is then rotated for 20 minutes or whatever - something like a cement mixer. Otherwise some of the liquid will be weak and some strong, as was tested.

 

[Prettycat191]

That was my theory too Kinabaloo.

Guess we won't know though.

 

[Fernand]

Maybe some honesty saying I can't comment as per my attorneys would have worked. Getting all defensive saying it was impossible because base nicotine gets mixed at a separate facility under his control or better yet it would show up in his bookkeeping if it happened, was double talk. He was downright delusional and in denial. I didn't catch any sincere concern that more of this 270mg stuff could be out there. He was an idiot to go on that show to say what he did. He can fix all his QC problems, but I'd never buy from him again based on that performance. CEO, best nic, or not.

I missed that. Did he say that stuff about "impossible" during the show, or was it in that e-mail they sent out?

I agree he's not exactly brilliant, which kind of worries me ...

What I wanted to know is where he gets his nicotine, and at what strength.

 

[Seabrook]

Well said. I am thinking that in the beginning of this whole thing Brad stated that it was impossible that anyone got above 100 mg nic because it was diluted down to 100 mgs before he even received it. Tonight it came out that he actually gets the 997 mg nic and dilutes it himself.

I am going to look for that comment because I am not 100% sure that he said it but I am fairly certain.

That is the way I also understood it, Salem. I thought it odd at the time, because with a name like Box Elder Chemical Company, I envision a team of chemists mixing chemicals. But I do believe he said "I mix it."

 

[Katya]

Hi, Sea and Salem! I believe this is what you are looking for:

well I just got this email from boxelder:

Hello Everyone,
Due to recent independent titration analyses we have decided to reveal our own internal methods of testing and quality control as well as our own independent analysis of liquids that have been diluted before they have arrived at our distribution facility. As I have stated before, we dilute pure nicotine down to just over 10% strength before it arrives at our distribution facility. At that point we have an independent GC/MS done to give us an accurate reading of the product ingredients and strengths. The diluted product comes in at about 11 to 13% in strength. We then we do a final adjustment to bring the product to an actual 10% strength. The reason for this is "if the product were to come in weaker than the target 10%", we would have no way of increasing the strength due to the fact that we only work with 10% strength or lower in the distribution facility.
We admit that mistakes could be made in labeling which could result in a product labeled as 48 mg/ml strength and actually be 100 mg/ml. Even a mistake like this could be dangerous and if we have made this type of mistake then all we could do is offer our humblest apologies and / or a replacement product. A product that is testing at at 272 mg/ml and labeled at 100 mg/ml is more than dangerous, it could be deadly. In all of our analyses (internal or independent) over the last two years we have never received a diluted batch for testing that was over 14%.

(snip)

Brad Bacher

And an earlier post from this thread:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...lem-nic-titration-results-28.html#post4573498

 

[Seabrook]

Hi katya,

I think you're right about the first part, thank you. The second part we were referring to was in the discussion tonight.

 

[Fernand]

Really looks to me like incomplete mixing is the issue. They add the correct quantity of base liquid to the concentrated nic but maybe use no equipment to ensure that the mix is churned for a suffient period of time to ensure a homogenous result. Ideally this would all occur under an inert atmosphere too. Basically the equipent is simply a drum with paddles inside that is then rotated for 20 minutes or whatever - something like a cement mixer. Otherwise some of the liquid will be weak and some strong, as was tested.

But then that 27.2% had to happen at the initial dilution, where > 14% nicotine is available, since he said "they" do it in two stages. Is there any reason to believe that? What does it mean "before it reaches our distribution facility"? Does this rough dilution take place in China? Where? By whom? And if incomplete mixing took place at this mysterious pre-incarnation stage, which is allegedly the only place anything higher than 140 mg/ml is ever seen, is it plausible it would fail to be at least reasonably homogenized as part of titrating it to 100 mg/ml? None of this makes sense.

 

[rkayw]

From what I caught/understood, he said they have two separate BE facilities x amt distance apart (don't recall exact mileage, not that it matters one bit). The jus of it and not an exact quote: One facility is for the rough diluting, the other is for distribution and pre-mixed liquids mixing (Gourmet Vapor juices I suppose). He said they mix it...they being BE chemist or staff. Someone here will correct me if I misunderstood it.

Basically to me...he said a whole lot of nothing!!
He danced all around questions and is a master Chief Evasion Officer. "CEO".

 

[TallGrass]

A real CEO would have sent a team of lawyers to VapeTV with a cease and desist order.

 

[DTO]

For anyone who is interested, here are the links to the recording of Cozzi's VapeTV show with Brad from Box Elder Supply and ECF member/Chemist Kurt. The show was recorded on Tuesday, 11/15/2011 at 10:00pm EST.

Part 1 - Video by VapeTVLive: Live Recording - 11/16/2011 04:16
Part 2 - Video by VapeTVLive: Live Recording - 11/16/2011 05:22
Part 3 - Video by VapeTVLive: Live Recording - 11/16/2011 06:18

 

[Switched]

I listened VP Live and watched/listened to the shows last night.

I would like to extend congratulations to all that participated in a difficult situation. What appalls me with the entire scenario is not what was said last night, but what was not said last night, which IMHO spoke volumes. The great divide between ECF and VF was clearly evident if one spent time reading some of the comments in chat without associating comments with names.

At one point Michael got extremely upset and maintained his cool. Kudos my man because you did a fabulous job moderating the conversation where needed and stayed out of it when not required, all the time maintaining the ship on course. Not participating in chat allowed me to remain focused on what was discussed - vice focusing on chat comments. The clear lack of leadership displayed by the CEO was simply appalling and spoke volumes of BE. I call him the CEO because he made it quite clear last night that is who he was.

There was a certain following that raised the issue of how do we know the liquids received by Kurt where actually genuine untampered liquids from BE and not some competitor trying to smudge a reputable vendor, which is a extremely valid point, and one that was supported by BE to some extent???

What wasn't said...

Was the CEO of BE grabbing the bull by the horns (leadership) and correcting the process within the company to ensure this never happens again. THAT IS WHAT A CEO IS SUPPOSE TO AND EXPECTED TO DO.

It was allured to on (sort of) a couple of occasions (by Cozzi (your mission if you chose...)) that they were going to forge ahead with new procedures, but the lack of enthusiasm led me to believe otherwise. He was worried more about his reputation than the problem and fixing it. IMHO that does not inspire consumer confidence, and if anything drove or will drive consumers away.

In closing it is not the quality of the product that influences whether I would use BE or not (never have, so I don't have a dog in this fight) but after listening to the CEO (Brad Balcher, (yes I know his name)) convinced me that I wouldn't in the future neither. There is clear evidence that lack of QA and QC within Box Elder does in fact exist, and the reluctance of the CEO to get to the root cause of why this happened does not inspire consumer confidence.

The red herring that kept popping up was exactly that a red herring and merely playing on legalese IMHO. The facts in this particular case were presented and admitted to by Brad. One cannot dispute that Kurt purchased 48mg instead of 100mg, and that fact alone demonstrates procedural problems within the company.

Not once did I hear we are going to shut operations down until we can get to the root of the problem and put in place measures and procedures to ensure this unfortunate incident doesn't occur in the future. IMHO independent testing is merely window dressing like closing the door after the fox is already in the hen house.

Regardless of where the 272mg came from, the clear denial from BE IMHO was reckless. Yes I understand you do not have to incriminate yourself (advise from counsel) OTOH to take that stance without investigating how IT MIGHT have happened is totally irresponsible and IMO reckless.

IMO the need to smudge a competitor is remote, Brad scuttled his own ship last night with his lack of demonstrated leadership and accountability. The fall guy, a labeler - sound familiar folks

 

[carpedebass]

This "CEO" sounds like a pretty good politician to me. I missed the interview. Scuttlebutt here tells me that I'm glad I missed it. Congrats on being a class act, Kurt!! Cozzi, thanks for bringing this to an even larger light.

The thing that really grabs me by the nether region is BE's email slamming Kurt as some kind of "chemistry student" hiding behind a username on a forum. I'd be willing to bet he didn't say that on the interview with Kurt there to defend himself. That really ticks me off!!

On the other hand, I have questions about the high sample. We do not know who handled it prior to Kurt's receiving it. or what they could have possibly done to the sample. I am NOT, in any way disputing Kurt's analysis as I believe it was done properly and according to sound procedure. I do, however find it odd that only one sample was that high. Again, I am not disputing Kurt's analysis...but I would be very interested to know what happened to that sample prior to it landing it Kurt's hands. How do we know that it wasn't tampered with? The answer is...we don't! Without a chain of custody, there is no way to prove that it wasn't tampered with.

Honestly, I believe the larger issue here is BE's tendency to "mis-label" their product. They strike me as the type of company to knowingly send half the concentration to pad their profits. They already treat their user base like we're idiots...how can we not see them making money off that?

 

[Desertfremen]

...The thing that really grabs me by the nether region is BE's email slamming Kurt as some kind of "chemistry student" hiding behind a username on a forum. I'd be willing to bet he didn't say that on the interview with Kurt there to defend himself. That really ticks me off!!

On the other hand, I have questions about the high sample. We do not know who handled it prior to Kurt's receiving it. or what they could have possibly done to the sample. I am NOT, in any way disputing Kurt's analysis as I believe it was done properly and according to sound procedure. I do, however find it odd that only one sample was that high. Again, I am not disputing Kurt's analysis...but I would be very interested to know what happened to that sample prior to it landing it Kurt's hands. How do we know that it wasn't tampered with? The answer is...we don't! Without a chain of custody, there is no way to prove that it wasn't tampered with. ...

Yes, I read that part in the email to and was quite inflamed. I even reread it several times to make sure I was reading it properly.

The other part about the samples being tampered with though just doesn't sit too well with me. While it is very easy to dilute the nicotine solution adding nicotine to the solution would be very difficult. Basically one would have to attain pure nicotine or at least a 50% nicotine solution in order to increase the concentration of nicotine in the solution.

It just seems far more difficult and dangerous to skew the numbers high than low. While it is not impossible I find it improbable.

 

[carpedebass]

Yes, I read that part in the email to and was quite inflamed. I even reread it several times to make sure I was reading it properly.

The other part about the samples being tampered with though just doesn't sit too well with me. While it is very easy to dilute the nicotine solution adding nicotine to the solution would be very difficult. Basically one would have to attain pure nicotine or at least a 50% nicotine solution in order to increase the concentration of nicotine in the solution.

It just seems far more difficult and dangerous to skew the numbers high than low. While it is not impossible I find it improbable.

Improbable as it may be...the question is still there. BE even made reference to it in their email...not that it makes it right. But my point here is that, without a chain of custody the element of doubt is ever looming and will be taken advantage of completely by those in question. I'd like to see that element of doubt removed in the future. Do I really think someone tampered with the sample? Not at all. But there does appear to be some ongoing rivalry between nic suppliers, as has been made well known on this very thread. Adding nicotine to the sample is not as difficult as you might think for someone that is accustomed to dealing with it and has the proper motivation for doing so. Again, I really don't think that's the case. But that's what anyone in BE's position is going to play on without proof otherwise.

For all we know, the sample was sent to Kurt by a forum member...could have been anyone with any motivation. It's those "could haves" that I'd like to see laid to rest. That way BE has no leg to stand on. That said, BE has never gained a red cent from me...and after this display, they never shall.

 

[rkayw]

Community pocketbook voting = KARMA

One way or the other...BE will get what they deserve.

They lost my pocketbook vote at the first read of posts about slow shipping. So very thankful I never ordered from them. I refuse to support companies/businesses that blatantly belittles it's customers intelligence and safety. They fail miserably at reaching out to their customers in a reasonable responsible manner. Customers like to feel that they are appreciated, valued, and respected.

What's the old saying? The customer is always right.
BE missed that day in business school.

 

[rkayw]

Speaking of those past posts about BE taking so long to ship a while back....does any of this issue now have anything to do with that? Does it correlate in any way? I have not gone back to re-read those slow shipping posts, but it dawned on me that perhaps BE had some QA & QC issues...and that possibly those issues seriously slipped thru the cracks and got shipped to customers. Maybe I'm reaching here...but do the dates on the tested nic correlate with that same period of ridiculously slow shipping?

Sorry if that doesn't make sense what I'm trying to say...been up all night rotating jerky.

 

[Spazmelda]

Yes, I read that part in the email to and was quite inflamed. I even reread it several times to make sure I was reading it properly.

The other part about the samples being tampered with though just doesn't sit too well with me. While it is very easy to dilute the nicotine solution adding nicotine to the solution would be very difficult. Basically one would have to attain pure nicotine or at least a 50% nicotine solution in order to increase the concentration of nicotine in the solution.

It just seems far more difficult and dangerous to skew the numbers high than low. While it is not impossible I find it improbable.

It doesn't sit well with me either, even though I threw it out as an unknown earlier. As you say it would be easy to lower a sample. It would also be easy to fake getting a higher concentration if you supposedly ordered say, 36 mg/ml nicotine.

To fake a 270 mg/ml concentration would take quite a bit of really high (like pure) nicotine. If I did the math right (which is a big if...) then you could mix 80 ml of 100 mg/ml with *20 ml* of 990 mg/ml nic and get close to the concentration that the BE nicotine tested at. That's a lot of pure nicotine for someone to be handling. It's within the realm of possibility, but it doesn't seem likely. Since there is that shred of doubt, I don't blame BE for jumping all over it. That's what I'd do if were them. This possibility does need to be addressed if testing like this is going to happen in the future. I just can't think of how. If one does get a nic that seems to be off, you can't know until you open it. You can't test it until you open it, but if once you open it any testing becomes invalid because of the possibility of tampering, then it's never going to be possible to hold a company accountable in this way. (Catch 22ish situation)

Whatever is the case with the really high sample, it does seem clear from the other samples, that QC is not up to par.