pH of unflavored nic liquid?

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jwquantrell

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Hey Kurt,

I am really glad that you started this thread, and I hope that you don't stop it short. You have managed to get three of my favorite posters, all together, on the same thread. That in itself earns you a :2cool:

I remember reading something about the relationship between PH level and nicotine absorption, so this study has me interested.

Regards
Jim
 

Kurt

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Hey Kurt,

I am really glad that you started this thread, and I hope that you don't stop it short. You have managed to get three of my favorite posters, all together, on the same thread. That in itself earns you a :2cool:

I remember reading something about the relationship between PH level and nicotine absorption, so this study has me interested.

Regards
Jim

Thanks, Jim! Stay tuned...this one ain't over yet! I intend to get to the bottom of this mystery.
 

Kurt

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Ok, another update. My thinking all of this started when I remembered that Adam at Vermont Vapor told me he lowered the pH of his nic base with citric acid to remove the smell. I also have 35 mg unflavored VG nic from him.

By my calculations, if a 35 mg/mL aqueous solution of nic is in all free-base form, then its pH should be about 10.7. Vermont Vapor 35 mg has a pH between 7 and 8. If we say the pH is 8, then VV is about 50:50 free-base:citrate salt. If it is pH 7, then it is 1:10 free-base:citrate. VV smells very similar to BE, but when I diluted some BE to about 35 mg with water, the pH was still around 10. If we say it is 10, then it is 100:1 nic:salt. If we say it is pH 9, then it is 10:1 nic:salt.

And VV 35 mg is on the peppery side. So at this point I have shown that some nics are significantly, if not mostly, salt form, but BE and MFS are not likely one of them.
 

Kurt

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Right, Kurt - I have one additional question - which of those nics suits you better? Could you compare them? You know TH etc.

Which suits ME better? It depends, but I guess after all this investigation, I am leaning towards MFS 100 mg. Since I vape only VG juices, the only thing that gives a TH or NH (nose hit, nose tingle, nose burn, maybe even a sneeze) is nic itself, and how much I thin with water to free that nic up for direct application to nasal passages and the throat. It gave me a second metric, in addition to what my spread sheet said was in the juice, as to nic content. Even at 12 mg, there is a difference to me. BE gives no clue, and with MFS the TH and NH is always right where it should be for that nic level. I carry with me a little 36 mg caramel juice which I add a few drops to my carto occasionally to kick it up. I want the pepper burn in the nose, and with BE it is hardly there at all, and so I would keep vaping to feel it...and end up getting too much nic. But at 36 mg, the MFS DIY does have a nic taste, and BE does not nearly as much.

Vermont Vapor is more on the peppery side at higher nic levels. And yet it also has less residual taste than MFS. It was the first high-nic unflavored I bought in bulk (Nov. 2009), as it was probably the first VG nic available at an affordable price in bulk. It was, and still is, $100 for 250 mL of 35 mg, so expensive by today's standards, but it is clean, pharm grade nic, pH balanced, and slightly thinned with distilled water, based on what Adm has told me. It does have a smell, somewhat like popcorn, rather than the more pesticide smell of MFS. Its very good, and I still use it, but with flavor I am limited to about 30 mg strength and no further thinning.

So long winded response. Clearly the pepper effect and smell are independent of pH or free-base/salt content, which makes it maddeningly mysterious to this chemist. Given what I look for in a vapor right now, I would say I like MFS the best and BE the least, with VV in the middle more towards MFS for TH and NH. If I ever decide I am not interested in TH and NH, or don't use it as a metric, and want true flavor with little clue that nic is present at all, other than the usual internal clues, like head rush and ear ringing, then BE will win hands down.

I have plenty in cold storage of all three of these. They will last as long as I want them to, virtually unchanged for many years, most likely. My tastes do change, as everyone's do, and this month I will probably vape MFS. Who knows what I will want next month or next year, but I have the option to change if I want.

To be completely honest, last nights experiments and this hypercritical evaluation of sensations, tastes and smells, reminds me of my audiophile hobby, where one becomes hypercritical of the sound a certain brand of signal capacitor gives, or how well the midrange blooms with Telefunken vacuum tubes, and the simple enjoyment of listening to music sometimes gets lost. I wanted to just get back to my own work, and get back to the days where I just had a cigarette and thought about my own work, not every detail of that cigarette. The cigarette was transparent to what was actually going on with me. Sometimes vaping is too, but not nearly enough, and it seems to require maintenance thinking at every step at times. Perhaps it is the fact that we are still in the baby years of it, and carving out the path for its future. We have too many options and not enough real understanding, especially when a solution that is likely only two components can be so radically different depending on the source. Fun, yes, too time consuming and counterproductive unless you are in the ecig/nic business, also yes.

OC, I'd love to see an english translation of your e-liquid blog!
 

Old Chemist

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Which suits ME better? It depends, but I guess after all this investigation, I am leaning towards MFS 100 mg. Since I vape only VG juices, the only thing that gives a TH or NH (nose hit, nose tingle, nose burn, maybe even a sneeze) is nic itself, and how much I thin with water to free that nic up for direct application to nasal passages and the throat.
Have you ever tried PGA for getting a better TH?


I wanted to just get back to my own work, and get back to the days where I just had a cigarette and thought about my own work, not every detail of that cigarette. The cigarette was transparent to what was actually going on with me.
How true... using analogs was simple as 1,2,3... With ecigs it's getting more and more sophisticated.

OC, I'd love to see an english translation of your e-liquid blog!
Well - right now the only way of reading it (for those who don't speak Polish, of course) is to use Google Translate or sth similar.
I wish I could have time to prepare bilingual version. Right now I am too busy, writing another manual for vapers here - this time on DIY liquids.
 

slopes

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I wanted to just get back to my own work, and get back to the days where I just had a cigarette and thought about my own work, not every detail of that cigarette. The cigarette was transparent to what was actually going on with me. Sometimes vaping is too, but not nearly enough, and it seems to require maintenance thinking at every step at times.

This is a common theme. I suggest what you mean is that you wish you could be unconscious of vaping an e cig in the same way that you were unconscious of smoking a cigarette. From my own experience as a former smoker (and from the few cigarettes I have used since taking up vaping), the ritual of preparing and lighting a cigarette - along with the anticipation of smoking it - are conscious actions in response to a felt need. Once the process is under way (and for its duration), it becomes largely unconscious... or, in other words, one's attention is fully given back to whatever one is otherwise occupied with - even if one is occupied with a period of reflection or daydreaming.

One only becomes conscious of the act of smoking again if it goes on for too long - in other words, at the point where having enough is about to pass into having too much. The size and strength of cigarettes are such that the point of having too much coincides with its being used up and finished. (Smokers of hand-rolled cigarettes will know the frustrations of being brought back into consciousness of the act of smoking when the item fails to provide the anticipated level of smoke at any point during the burning period).

If the most important elements of the cigarette smoking process involve the beginning and end (of meeting a consciously felt need) with the middle part being a largely unconscious - but necessary - period of the overall event, then we can better understand the e cig's failure as a good-enough substitute.

The e cig doesn't have a significant 'ending'. I mean this as the point where its contents are used-up, which also corresponds with the experience of the felt need having been met... and the unpleasant (and very conscious) consequences of proceeding to have too much - or of over-meeting the need. Because if this, the e cig has no significant 'beginning' either. There is no period in which the felt need is able to develop - and be enjoyed along with the anticipation of its being met.

If this is true, then a more accurate substitute for cigarettes - and the smoking event - might be an e cig with the following characteristics:

1) Its function would be limited to a set time period (eg, a 10 minute session)
2) Once switched on, it would constantly produce vapour during a session
3) Between puffs it would function in 'simmer' mode (ie, produce and release low levels of vapour)
4) During puffs it would function in 'boil' mode (ie, produce and release high levels of vapour)
5) It might have a small, linear orange LED metre showing its progress from start to end of the session
6) At the end of a session it would automatically switch itself off completely.
7) The juice would contain whatever alkaloids etc found in tobacco...
8) The juice would also contain an equivalent to combusted smoke - in that its overuse would result in similar effects (a mild sense of nausea, dizziness etc).
 
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