How is sub-ohm vaping dangerous?

[dr g]

Frankly, I think the video was a perfect answer to the initial question: "How is sub-ohm vaping dangerous?"

Because a cell might get punctured? What?

Physical cell damage that causes an internal short is probably the least likely thing to happen to a cell -- and it has the same chance of happening to any given mod regardless of the coil. It has no relevance to subohm.

EDIT: And try finding a datasheet for AW batteries ...

 

[Ubergeek63]

Because a cell might get punctured? What?

Physical cell damage that causes an internal short is probably the least likely thing to happen to a cell -- and it has the same chance of happening to any given mod regardless of the coil. It has no relevance to subohm.

EDIT: And try finding a datasheet for AW batteries ...

Low ohm vaping is damn close to a dead short, which is close to the load of a puncture test. A dead short is a possible explosion instead since the puncture test results in a gaping vent or two.

From what little i have seen of your posts, it seems you have difficulty or are unwilling to project from similarities to outcomes. Overload=overheat=violent combustion=similar fireworks - if you are LUCKY. If you are not lucky the battery explodes!


AW? Make and model?

 

[dr g]

Low ohm vaping is damn close to a dead short, which is close to the load of a puncture test. A dead short is a possible explosion instead since the puncture test results in a gaping vent or two.

A lot of modern electronics are "close to a dead short" ... milliohm loads are not uncommon. Doesn't mean it's dangerous, it just means you have to spec your power source accordingly. As mentioned earlier, batteries see milliohm loads when used in boosting mods.

The batteries used in subohm vaping can take dead shorts from pole to pole. External shorts are literally some of the mildest failure conditions batteries face and are tested to; internal shorts are COMPLETELY different events. Just about every test standard requires external short tolerance:

Ref: Safety Standards for Lithium-Ion Cells and/or https://batteryworkshop.msfc.nasa.g...iew_Internal_Short_Circuit_Li-Ion_TChapin.pdf

Few include internal short or penetration tolerance. Internal shorts and penetrations are some of the most severe events a battery can face and many experience catastrophic failures in those events. Luckily they are some of the rarest events.

From what little i have seen of your posts, it seems you have difficulty or are unwilling to project from similarities to outcomes. Overload=overheat=violent combustion=similar fireworks - if you are LUCKY. If you are not lucky the battery explodes!

On the contrary, I am perfectly willing to project similarities to outcomes. I just understand when there aren't similarities better than most, apparently!

Penetration = extremely fast, localized heating and electrolyte release at the same location, coupled with potential sparking from the foreign object and/or high-rate internal short, again at the location of the electrolyte leak.

But how does this apply to real world conditions? Not very well: http://www4.eere.energy.gov/vehicle...ites/default/files/es142_sriramulu_2013_p.pdf

AW? Make and model?

Pick one.

 

[WattWick]

Either it's a dead short, or it isn't. To be on the safe side, don't use batteries that blow up under any scenario.

 

[Myk]

Either it's a dead short, or it isn't. To be on the safe side, don't use batteries that blow up under any scenario.

That pretty much means we don't vape.

 

[WattWick]

Let me rephrase that for you. Don't use batteries that explode unless you make an effort to make them do so.

 

[Ubergeek63]

Pick one.

At work now... but a cursory search revealed on another forum i am on (candlepowerforums) that your AW god is simply a chinese battery pack manufacturer and not a cell maker, and that is why you can not get real spec sheets on them.

Batteryspace.com on the other hand is the consumer arm of AA Portable Power Corp and actually has full cell specs on the batteries like this one:

 

[dr g]

At work now... but a cursory search revealed on another forum i am on (candlepowerforums) that your AW god is simply a chinese battery pack manufacturer and not a cell maker, and that is why you can not get real spec sheets on them.

Batteryspace.com on the other hand is the consumer arm of AA Portable Power Corp and actually has full cell specs on the batteries like this one:

Don't strawman. I said nothing about my personal thoughts or preferences regarding AW. AWs are given as an example because they illustrate the failure of your standard. AWs are the #1 most recommended battery on these forums for ecigarette use and are one of the most popular in the flashlight community (that actually gave rise to them). They are even specified by some PV manufacturers.

And you will not find a spec sheet for them anywhere. In fact you won't find that kind of data sheet for all the current best PV batteries.

 

[gankoji]

Don't strawman. I said nothing about my personal thoughts or preferences regarding AW. AWs are given as an example because they illustrate the failure of your standard. AWs are the #1 most recommended battery on these forums for ecigarette use and are one of the most popular in the flashlight community (that actually gave rise to them). They are even specified by some PV manufacturers.

And you will not find a spec sheet for them anywhere. In fact you won't find that kind of data sheet for all the current best PV batteries.

I think this point you make here is the most disappointing one brought up in this thread. Almost every single electric/electronic component ever made and distributed has an accompanying datasheet, describing proper usage, and operating condition limits at a bare minimum. Most of the time, these are available from your distributor. That most IMR batteries do not come with (or have available) datasheets which specify, in plenty of detail, their charge, discharge and capacity characteristics is disappointing. I can't imagine the MFR's reason for not providing them, but I will be in touch with a few and see if I can't get my grubby hands on one .

[EDIT] I stumbled across this the other day. Now, I know it's for Panasonic's NCR line, which are Li-ion and not Li-Mn (IMR), but this is what we should expect from our battery manufacturers. http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf2/ACA4000/ACA4000CE240.pdf [/EDIT]

 

[dr g]

I think this point you make here is the most disappointing one brought up in this thread. Almost every single electric/electronic component ever made and distributed has an accompanying datasheet, describing proper usage, and operating condition limits at a bare minimum. Most of the time, these are available from your distributor. That most IMR batteries do not come with (or have available) datasheets which specify, in plenty of detail, their charge, discharge and capacity characteristics is disappointing. I can't imagine the MFR's reason for not providing them, but I will be in touch with a few and see if I can't get my grubby hands on one .

[EDIT] I stumbled across this the other day. Now, I know it's for Panasonic's NCR line, which are Li-ion and not Li-Mn (IMR), but this is what we should expect from our battery manufacturers. http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf2/ACA4000/ACA4000CE240.pdf [/EDIT]

You can find that data for many batteries if not most (not AWs though!). However this is less data than the other poster requires.

 

[gankoji]

You can find that data for many batteries if not most (not AWs though!). However this is less data than the other poster claims to require.

So far, I haven't turned up anything on AW's yet. I can't even find a website for the manufacturer, or who it is that makes their cells. Maybe you can provide a link?

 

[dr g]

So far, I haven't turned up anything on AW's yet. I can't even find a website for the manufacturer, or who it is that makes their cells. Maybe you can provide a link?

You won't because there isn't one! The manufacturer is unknown and this is the official AW web presence:
IMR16340 / IMR14500 / IMR18350 / IMR18490 / IMR18650 / IMR26500 *Part 2*

AW himself provides general data for the cells, which is what we tend to go on, and empirical testing has proven these batteries to be some of the best available. They are in very wide use in vaping and are known to be very safe ... but there is no datasheet of even the general type available for them.

 

[Technonut]

AW is a person.. His name is Andrew Wong. He does not manufacture batteries. The batteries which get the AW brand are the "cream-of-the-crop" from other manufacturers.

Here is one of his original threads from another forum:

http://www.cpfmarketplace.com/mp/sh...on-Batteries-Sales-Thread-*Part-12*&p=2513217

 

[Myk]

[EDIT] I stumbled across this the other day. Now, I know it's for Panasonic's NCR line, which are Li-ion and not Li-Mn (IMR), but this is what we should expect from our battery manufacturers. http://industrial.panasonic.com/www-data/pdf2/ACA4000/ACA4000CE240.pdf [/EDIT]

As far as I know NNP is only the NCR18650A at the moment, not the whole NCR line. IMO it is better than IMR as far as safety goes (judging from videos). And so far it's better than any other Panasonic NCR/CGR I have as far as discharge curve in real ecig use.

 

[gankoji]

You won't because there isn't one! The manufacturer is unknown and this is the official AW web presence:
IMR16340 / IMR14500 / IMR18350 / IMR18490 / IMR18650 / IMR26500 *Part 2*

AW himself provides general data for the cells, which is what we tend to go on, and empirical testing has proven these batteries to be some of the best available. They are in very wide use in vaping and are known to be very safe ... but there is no datasheet of even the general type available for them.

Well, this makes a little more sense now. I'll keep that in mind next time I consider purchasing these batteries. Not that I mean to offend or disrespect AW or his customers, but a one man show, who's sourcing, manufacturing, and ultimate product specs are a mystery is not what I consider a 'reputable manufacturer.' Maybe I'm too ...., but that's my two cents.

 

[WattWick]

Well, this makes a little more sense now. I'll keep that in mind next time I consider purchasing these batteries. Not that I mean to offend or disrespect AW or his customers, but a one man show, who's sourcing, manufacturing, and ultimate product specs are a mystery is not what I consider a 'reputable manufacturer.' Maybe I'm too ...., but that's my two cents.

I have a love/hate relationship as well. I've just had to suck up the lack of information and professionalism and buy his batteries. There's not a lot of options for the 18350 and 490/500 sizes.

 

[gankoji]

I have a love/hate relationship as well. I've just had to suck up the lack of information and professionalism and buy his batteries. There's not a lot of options for the 18350 and 490/500 sizes.

That's a fair point. For me, I use strictly 18650's, so there are maybe one or two other viable options out there.

 

[dr g]

As far as I know NNP is only the NCR18650A at the moment, not the whole NCR line. IMO it is better than IMR as far as safety goes (judging from videos). And so far it's better than any other Panasonic NCR/CGR I have as far as discharge curve in real ecig use.

I believe the NNP applies to the whole NCR line, NNP stands for New Nickel Positive and NCR stands for Nickel Cobalt Rechargeable I believe, so both refer to the same chemistry. I believe they all have the HRL safety layer. This is the most complete official list of datasheets I can find: Cylindrical Type | Lithium Ion Batteries (For Europe) | Batteries & Energy Products | Panasonic Industrial Devices Europe

There is this: http://e-motion.lt/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/NCR18650PD-1.pdf but the provenance is unknown.

 

[dr g]

That's a fair point. For me, I use strictly 18650's, so there are maybe one or two other viable options out there.

There are, but it's awfully hard to beat the AW 1600 18650 for super high drain performance. The only better batteries that I know of in that application are the best Samsung INRs.

 

[Myk]

I believe the NNP applies to the whole NCR line, NNP stands for New Nickel Positive and NCR stands for Nickel Cobalt Rechargeable I believe, so both refer to the same chemistry. I believe they all have the HRL safety layer. This is the most complete official list of datasheets I can find: Cylindrical Type | Lithium Ion Batteries (For Europe) | Batteries & Energy Products | Panasonic Industrial Devices Europe

There is this: http://e-motion.lt/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/NCR18650PD-1.pdf but the provenance is unknown.

That's interesting. That chart is the first I saw NCR-B listed as NNP (its PDF is the old style that doesn't say NNP). The last chart I found like that lead to the same files for the NCR-A but the battery numbers were different and I had to go by mah to find the batteries I was after.
I was going by what other people say and NCR-A was the only one I could find with a specific data sheet that said NNP before. Others were claiming NCR-PD is an IMR hybrid like CGR and NCR-B was a standard chemistry so I was taking them at their word. I should've known better, they were also claiming NCR-A was something other than NNP. The whole reason I started learning about Panasonics was because of obvious flaws in what those people were claiming vs tests seemingly designed to support their claims.

I was under the impression they all had HRL too but have seen claims otherwise. I wish they had the same PDF for all of those NNPs and listed what safety feature updates they have. I think I pushed A hard enough to get it to interrupt and it didn't get hot at all (unlike CGR). If I could confirm that PD would react the same that would become my mesh oxidizing battery because I don't like them for vaping (drop too fast at the top and hang too long at the bottom).
If the case is all the NCRs are created equal I'm impressed with the line but most impressed with NCR-A because it stays at the higher end longer.