How is sub-ohm vaping dangerous?
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And that would be why I don't trust these non-real world machine tests over someone actually using a battery in an ecig.
I saw one test for something else discharging one "puff" every 25 seconds. Who vapes like that?
A lot of what I heard claimed about PD vs B was cooking the stats and claiming a higher shutdown voltage like a mech user would use.
I heard PD gave more usable mah than B. Wrong. eVic, puff counter, same liquid, mod setting and atty, timed puffs, run until the mod shuts down. B was giving at least 100 more puffs.
My B's have seen more use and are starting to fall off but they're still giving more than the PDs when new.
A's mah also seems comparatively correct to what those two do, but the thing is it stays above 50% charge a very long time and falls fast after that. The other two fall fast to 50% and then go long.
My mech has only seen the A's so I can't compare directly (maybe I will now that I know the others are NNP) but it stays above 3.7v much longer than I expected.
I think it comes down to being similar to the 25 second "puff" rate test not being a real world puff rate and constant drain does not equal sporadic drain.
actually, all of the above is why i do trust aw more than most other brands of batteries. he doesn't provide "complete" specifications, but the ones he does are enough to be able to use the batteries safely. also, his specifications have been shown by reviewers to typically be more accurate than those of any of his competitors.
the following is hearsay (so believe it at your own discretion), but i've heard that aw's entire operation is buying up lots of batteries and testing all of them. the best of the best get branded as aw's, and the rest get sold to other distributors in bulk. he's basically an enthusiast who was sick of the inaccurate specifications and semi-decent quality control of other manufacturers and resellers, so he decided to start providing batteries with his personal guarantee that they would live up to the specifications that he advertises.
like i said, this is just what i've heard and i make no claim of being able to prove it. based on my experience, the experiences of others, and aw's reputation, though, i tend to believe it.
the following is hearsay (so believe it at your own discretion), but i've heard that aw's entire operation is buying up lots of batteries and testing all of them. the best of the best get branded as aw's, and the rest get sold to other distributors in bulk. he's basically an enthusiast who was sick of the inaccurate specifications and semi-decent quality control of other manufacturers and resellers, so he decided to start providing batteries with his personal guarantee that they would live up to the specifications that he advertises.
like i said, this is just what i've heard and i make no claim of being able to prove it. based on my experience, the experiences of others, and aw's reputation, though, i tend to believe it.
I just glanced at one of the above references (thanks for those, y'all!) and noticed that the AW 18490s are also rated at 15C! (granted, they are 1100 mAh; but still, nice for my specialty-REO buddies).
ooohhhhh --- my head is spinning! I'm glad there are people out there to sort all this out. And, I'm glad that AW is did (and continues to do) such a fine job, too.
Yup. Even some of us old schoolers that recommend AW did some studying back in the day.
A constant discharge test is more than accurate enough for our needs.
If a battery can handle a 20a draw from full to empty I think it can handle being fired for 10s every few minutes.
Not when it's giving results that are the opposite of actual use.
You apply a load, the battery puts out current, it drains.
We're not doing anything magical here.
Well, actually, the MNKEs' performance is almost as good as the AW1600s, but it consistently charts worse than the AW2000s
It charts/tests like cra_p; I'm convinced it doesn't reflect actual performance in subΩ vaping (I've gone through a set of 4 of them, and am comparing the AW1600s for ~1 month now)
It charts/tests like cra_p; I'm convinced it doesn't reflect actual performance in subΩ vaping (I've gone through a set of 4 of them, and am comparing the AW1600s for ~1 month now)
And that's the kind of thinking that causes people to accept this false tests as gospel.
Look at what the people using the tests say about NCR18650PD vs NCR18650B vs NCR18650A.
Compare to my results actually vaping.
NCR18650PD, 420 puffs, 440 puffs.
NCR18650B, 540 puffs, 520 puffs, 470 puffs (twice).
NCR18650A, 490 puffs
Puff counters have no bias and they're not magical either.
Real world experience CANNOT be wrong. When the tests don't agree with the real world there's something screwed up with the tests.
Maybe those tests are accurate for flashlights and lasers, they're not for ecigs. I assume it's because the batteries are used differently.
Uhh, mah isn't the thing under question here, voltage under load is.
A battery could last forever but if 90% of that duration was under 3.6v then realistically nobody cares.
Am I supposed to repeat myself because of your refusal to read what you don't want to believe so you can believe some tests that don't represent real life ecig experience and claim things are the opposite of what they are?
It doesn't matter how you drain a battery, voltage under load is voltage under load.
I'll believe tests over your anecdotal "puff" counts any day of the week.
What was the puff drawing (what was the device attached)? Personally I look at stats down to 3.2v under load. A constant discharge test is not light on the battery by any means. However at a low discharge current, the non-high drain batteries' higher energy density does provide more discharged energy, the B moreso than the A, so your results seem to be in line with that.
I am not familiar with how the evic puff tester works, can you explain?
If you would look at the tests you would see that tests under different loads are different, that's why they test different loads. If you ever used a battery for anything in your life and were aware while doing so you would know that resting them between loads allows them to "recharge". Given our short bursts of load those resting periods do add up to make a difference.
So no, a constant discharge until dead or frequent discharges until dead is not equal to ecig use.
I will take anecdotal real life results over faulty testing methods when real life contradicts the tests any day. But you are free to stick to faulty testing methods if you want.
And it's not really anecdotal, it was a fairly controlled set up with an exact puff count (that were rounded off for here). It is a small sample because it takes a long time to drain batteries in the 3000mah range in real use situations. The one thing that throws it off is the eVic has a small drain even while not firing so while testing I was trying to focus on that one mod.
The usage perceptions in the mech with the NCR-A are purely anecdotal. I don't offer those as proof beyond that they seem to follow along with what I saw in the VV/VW. Which goes against what the metered tests say.
If you want a good test for ecigs it has to be designed around typical ecig use not constant flashlight/laser drain.
eVic is a PWM VV/VW mod with all the bells and whistles (although a low amp limit). The puff counter is just a puff counter that I reset with every battery change.
2.2Ω. Wattage went like this, 10w for 1 second, 9w to 1.3 seconds, 8w/1.6 seconds, 7w/2 seconds, 6.5w up to 10 seconds. You seem to know how those translate to drain in a PWM VV/VW over the voltage range with a boost better than I.
With auto puff turned on so most puffs were 5 seconds long, although auto puff can be disabled by holding the firing button and that happens sometimes
It also has a battery meter that shows percentage so you can see how many puffs you get per percentage point, which I was paying attention to while testing. And it shuts down at 3.2v.
I did run some low and sub-ohm set ups (1Ω and .9Ω duals) though the mech the other day with the NCR-A's and between setting up and vaping two sets of duals the NCR-A did seem to drop to 3.9v quicker but that is to be expected with any battery at the higher drain (the set up before was 1.5Ω dual). Now that I know the NCRs are the same chemistry and I trust the NCR-A's I'll do the math and see what other's I can try in it to compare. Although I have no way (or desire) to provide exact counts with a mech.
BTW, I think you like lighter wire for sub-ohm? I could not get those working right in my IGO-L clone. I liked heavier wire. I think the legs are too long in the RDA. The lighter wire might work better in my RBAs.
On the Comparator . . . Battery test-review 18650 comparator . . . I've found that different Amperage changes the picture, sometimes significantly. I, for one, appreciate the info on the Evic puff counts; but prefer to look at a 7 Amp draw for comparison.
That's a nice tool.
High drain is a problem. NCR-A is 6.2a and NCR-B is 6.8a. The only NCR I have that can do 7a is the PD which is 10a rating.
So here's a question I've had that seems relevant to the current trend of this discussion:
A battery test for a given amperage - does it maintain the same amperage as the battery drains by manipulating the resistance?
If so, then that isn't an accurate representation of a mechanical mod.
A battery test for a given amperage - does it maintain the same amperage as the battery drains by manipulating the resistance?
If so, then that isn't an accurate representation of a mechanical mod.
Yes, a CC test manipulates load impedance for the sake of constant current. Yes, it's not an accurate representation of real world usage in a mech mod. It's used quite often in the world of batteries to characterize capacity and output stiffness under load (voltage drop over time).
I'm quite intrigued by Myk's puff counter tests. I think that, at the very least, you sir are on the right track to providing the most useful data to date on these batteries. To be completely thorough in our discussion of various batteries, though, I believe we'll need to do a bit more testing. I might have to get myself one of these mods with a puff counter...
I don't even have a good average to consider it thorough with just the B's, and I've pretty much taken to only using the B's in the mod I was using to test (love getting 500-ish puffs off a single charge). It takes a while when you get 2 days of constant use from a battery and then throw in other mods/flavors extending that time.
I'm trying to get back to using the PD's to see if they drop after a few charges like the B's seem to have done. The A's should be easy to get there now that I have low ohm coils.
What gets me is the discharge curves in the machine tests. I didn't write down the numbers but that is very much not what I was seeing in the eVic and it doesn't seem that way in the mech.
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