How much nicotine is destroyed during vaping ?

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Mister

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Hang on I'm getting confused here, I thought the 10% figure for cigarettes was 10% nicotine in the smoke, compared to what's actually in the tobacco in the ciggie to start with - i.e. destroyed on heating/combustion.

Now I'm confused too. I had been thinking that the 10% style of labelling on cigarettes indicated the amount delivered into the user's body. But on going searching for information I find studies to quantify this are a bit scarce.

The labelling on the cigarette packages indicates a measurement from a smoking machine which turns out to have remarkably poor correlation to what humans get from cigarettes.

Though I didn't find much I have found some stuff I think is very interesting.

The study at http://tobaccofreeunion.org/tech-gu...e Yields and Human Exposure_Hammond et al.pdf, notes that "Overall, the current findings indicate that none of the smoking regimens currently in use adequately ‘represent’ human smoking behavior and none are significantly associated with measures of nicotine uptake among human participants." They also found that "Indeed, the Human Mimic yields suggest that study participants were exposed to tar, nicotine, and CO levels that were two to four times greater than the ISO yields." (The ISO yields referred to are what's on the packaging.)

An interesting page is at The influence of cigarette consumption and smoking... [J Oral Pathol Med. 1997] - PubMed result. That summary of a study tells us that in all cases in two studies of three groups, the measured nicotine uptake in the smokers was higher than the stated nicotine content on the packages multiplied by the number of cigarettes smoked. (They don't say that directly but they provide the figures; the arithmetic to see this conclusion is simple.) On average the absorbed nicotine seems to be in the 130% to 140% range vs. the labelled content.

What I've learned is that:
1) Current smoking machine tests don't measure the nicotine delivered to smokers within any reasonable range of accuracy. They tend to measure on the low side vs. real smoking habits, by a factor of as much as 2 for regular cigarettes and by up to 4 for "light" cigarettes.
2) Smokers adjust their smoking style to self-titrate, in many cases getting even more nicotine from "light" cigarettes.
3) Cigarette manufacturers have abetted the above behaviour by producing light cigarettes which perform well on ISO type tests but can be smoked for more aggressive nicotine delivery by the consumer.

In Vaporer's case I'm inclined to up my previous calculation of 30% because he was smoking "lights" where the machines appear to be particularly low.

And for all users we have probably underestimated the amount of nicotine which was being delivered to us by cigarettes. I think that this means that DVap's previous informal conclusion of 40% delivery from pre-vape nicotine to what we absorb was probably low. Assuming that we self-titrate to replace our previous smoking, and seeing that what we absorbed from cigarettes seems to be higher than the number on the packages, I think we must also be getting more from the liquid. I'm thinking probably in the 50 to 60% range now.

If your're interested in the evolution of cigarettes to fool the machines, the following link has a good description: http://www.smoke-free.ca/pdf_1/Background-design.pdf

And here's a link I think would be of interest if anyone has a ScienceDirect account to access it:
ScienceDirect - Regulatory Toxicology and Pharmacology : Relationship between machine-derived smoke yields and biomarkers in cigarette smokers in Germany
 
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TWISTED VICTOR

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(They don't say that directly but they provide the figures; the arithmetic to see this conclusion is simple.) On average the absorbed nicotine seems to be in the 130% to 140% range vs. the labelled content.

This would be neglegible for a single smoke, but significant after 2 packs.


And for all users we have probably underestimated the amount of nicotine which was being delivered to us by cigarettes. I think that this means that DVap's previous informal conclusion of 40% delivery from pre-vape nicotine to what we absorb was probably low. Assuming that we self-titrate to replace our previous smoking, and seeing that what we absorbed from cigarettes seems to be higher than the number on the packages, I think we must also be getting more from the liquid. I'm thinking probably in the 50 to 60% range now.

That would make sense if the above assumption of 130-140% is true. Thanks, mister :). We'll see where this goes. I would like to add, for the benefit of all the mg/ml nic police out there holding danger signs in front of a bottle of 36 or 48, if this is the case we're talking a "sliding" scale of absorption and not one where higher nic consumption puts us any closer to death.
 

exogenesis

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Very interesting info Mister,
seems to go against expectations, if 2/3rds smoke is exhaled & we get
as much as 1.4 mg blood nic. from a 10 mg nicotine containing ciggy,
then 'only' 60% of ciggy nic. is destroyed during smoking a ciggie.

Still a lot higher % nic. loss than vaping (it seems - so far), but the
main thing is still that we inhale more nic than any ciggie during a vaping 'session',
and the blood level is very low in comparison (possibly).
Probably need confirmation (or otherwise) of those vaping nic. blood levels.

PillBox at TW was asking for (UK) volunteers to participate in a new study,
unsure of what the status is:
Preparation For a Smoking Cessation Trial In association With "UEL"
 

Mister

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Very interesting info Mister, seems to go against expectations, if 2/3rds smoke is exhaled & we get as much as 1.4 mg blood nic. from a 10 mg nicotine containing ciggy, then 'only' 60% of ciggy nic. is destroyed during smoking a ciggie.

Still a lot higher % nic. loss than vaping (it seems - so far), but the main thing is still that we inhale more nic than any ciggie during a vaping 'session', and the blood level is very low in comparison (possibly). Probably need confirmation (or otherwise) of those vaping nic. blood levels.

I wonder about the "2/3rds smoke is exhaled." The number might be much lower for nicotine. I came across a number of references saying things about the lungs being very efficient at extracting nicotine from smoke, extracting the majority, and in one case saying 98% of the nicotine was extracted. But none of the references were supported by references to studies. I sure do wonder what the extraction efficiency is.

I remember something about a study which measured cotinine after vaping and found 10% absorption. But I've lost track of it, have you kept a link? AFAIK there was just that one study and our collective levels of satisfaction with particular juice strengths seems to strongly contradict that conclusion.
 

Mister

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TWISTED VICTOR

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Here's a summary of something which looks reputable and claims that 98% of inhaled nicotine is retained. It would be nice to see the details of how they measured inhaled/exhaled nicotine but is a summary of a ScienceDirect article.

ScienceDirect - Toxicology Letters : Respiratory retention of nicotine and urinary excretion of nicotine and its five major metabolites in adult male smokers
That makes the ol' eyebrows go up :shock:. Now, where's my 250mg bottle, it's here somewhere....oh yeah, next to the bleach.
 

exogenesis

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Think this is the link to the blood level study:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...5034-nicotine-absorbtion-vaping-research.html
also there's:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/30623-blood-test-lab-results-nicotine-levels.html

Good link Mister, can't fathom how a deep inhalation can get the same nic. retained as normal inhalation,
unless :
1 the nicotine passes to the lung from the smoke immediately somehow,
or
2 the exhaled proportion of smoke is the same in both cases, for some reason


TV, I think really vaping is ahead of the game, just don't have the
studies to prove it, put that 250mg bottle down !
 

Vaporer

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Away..
Just got back. Some very interesting stuff there.
I'd love to see comparative blood nic levels from both with a known content level of starting nic.
To clarify my other post, the analog seems to deliver 10% of its content in smoke.
How much is absorbed is another thing. Smoke deff wins the release rate compared to vapor, but the PV is a more efficient delivery system than an analog when it comes to nic loss.

They played trick the smoking machine for yrs on end. Putting vent(intake) holes in the light filters only to place them where the smoker covers them. lol
They also didnt bother to list that CO went sky high doing this for the light smoker.
CO will bond to blood cells 200x easier than O2 blocking the bloods ability to carry O2.
For people with lung conditions, they thought they were doing good going to lights and ultra lights only to starve thier system for O2.

exo, that is a valid question on the inhalation factor. Does all the nic release so easily that by the time it reaches the lungs that most of the nic is already gone? Leaving the tar and other heavies get trapped there?

I'd also like to see a study that measures the nic content from start to finish.
This would answer a lot of questions. Amounts would be measured at the content starting, what is inhaled and what is in the exhale along with blood levels.
There's enough data to probably make a table for an analog. Nothing I know of has been done for the PV yet at this level. You and DVap have done the most I've seen. Other than the NZ test.
 
The greenhouse gasses make the planet hospitable by raising the temp from what would otherwise be something like -200C. There are various cycles, mostly due to cycles of the heat source - i.e. the sun. It's about more tax for the boys, and more government (more tax again). Data is manipulated to fit preconceptions; something normal for politicians and quite a few scientists too. We see this here on the forums all the time too (mostly the politician types).
 
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exogenesis

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Soooo, is that good or bad,
if you emphasise (all) the truth, does that make it more or less true ?
- ps I know what you're saying, I'm not looking for an argument :)



Eventually got another result here:

70 mg/ml (pharma) nic in (pharma) glycerol.
Diluted 20 ml + 4 ml de-ionised water (1/6 th diluted), to make it flow.

Collected 8.10 g = 6.74 ml for this mixture (density = 1.202g/ml).

Titration of collected liquor + the 3 impingers gave 91.0% recovered nicotine
(or at least recovered titratable main-nitrogen).
Similar PG juice gave 92.5% recovery of nic in the vapour, so pretty close really.

Again, 5% was leaked to the impingers, but accounted for in the above figure.

Will update the summary post when I've got a few more results....

Wish now that there was a greater loss, would make what I'm doing
more worth while, seeing these 90%+ recoveries make me feel a bit like
I'm not using my time effectively :(
 

TWISTED VICTOR

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The greenhouse gasses make the planet hospitable by raising the temp from what would otherwise be something like -200C. There are various cycles, mostly due to cycles of the heat source - i.e. the sun. It's about more tax for the boys, and more government (more tax again). Data is manipulated to fit preconceptions; something normal for politicians and quite a few scientists too. We see this here on the forums all the time too (mostly the politician types).
Seriously, here....kin, this is exactly what I believe...all the above....been saying it loudly since Al Gore won the Nobe Peace Prize. Just wanted to throw that in while I had the chance :D. Carry on exo, Vaporer...:).
 
Exo - 2 consistent results is far from wasted effort.

Just a little boing though ;)

(long reply got trashed - so this is musings-free reply-lite)

ps: Many green things are worthwhile for other reasons. I'm sceptical on climate change by humankind; though the historical cycles are very real and cause for concern enough.

ps: it's now official, going by this year's nobel: war is peace. Slaughter would be more accurate.
 
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Mister

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Thanks exogenesis. That got me going.

The difference between measured blood levels suggesting low levels of vaping nicotine absorption (often said to be 10%) and the large amount of anecdotal evidence suggesting the number to be more like 40 to 60% is a troublesome discrepancy in our understanding of vaping. (Note: I thought the second number was 40% until recently; the realization that cigarettes are commonly delivering more nicotine than their labels suggest means that the number should be higher than 40%. I'll call it 50% for now.)

I've been reading everything I can find to try to understand this.

I found two reports which substantiate the 10% thinking. (There is a third one but I've left it out because it only did blood nic measurement five minutes after inhalation. I think that measurement by itself tells us very little.)

1) The New Zealand study funded by Ruyan. Data from that study has been presented in various forms but they seem to all derive from one study. I think that this study is useful but has some limitations:
a) It used Ruyan ultrasonic devices. I don't know if these could have substantial differences vs. our current atomizers. Probably not much but we don't know.
b) It has been referenced to support claims that the delivery of nicotine from vaping is very low. But that isn't clear to me. The first link below includes the statement that "Each puff contains one third to one half the nicotine in a tobacco cigarette’s puff", which already disagrees with a 10% assumption. And that's before accounting for the study's use of Ruyan 16mg liquid, which it found to actually be 14mg, vs. some vapers' use of 24, 36, or more.

Useful links I found which present the New Zealand study's results:
http://www.healthnz.co.nz/RuyanCartridgeReport30-Oct-08.pdf
http://www.healthnz.co.nz/ecig_effect-2.pdf
http://www.healthnz.co.nz/DublinBenchtopHandout.pdf

2) The blood tests reported by forum user "happily" on this thread: http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/nicotine/30623-blood-test-lab-results-nicotine-levels.html. This is one person's measurements and although both the nicotine and cotinine results suggest low absorption, there's an anomaly between those two results which is interesting.

Then there's the other view on how much we're getting. DVap speculated that there's a fixed relationship between the amount of nicotine vapers use in a given time and the established (by amount they previously smoked) amount of nicotine their bodies need. This thinking has appeared less formally many times on the forum in threads like "If I smoked X cigarettes of strength Y, then I must need Z nicotine" or like "Since I smoked X@Y, and vaping delivers 10%, how could I be satisfied with only Z liquid?"

DVap observed that there does seem to be a fixed relationship at around 40% for most people. I now think that number should be higher because DVap's calculations (if I understood correctly) were based on the nicotine level stated on cigarette labels and those numbers turn out to be generally lower than the actual nicotine delivered and absorbed.

exogenesis has rechecked his experiment showing a bit over 90% of e-liquid's nicotine being delivered in the vapor. Although this is higher than DVap's earlier experiments, I think that exogenesis's number is the best available at the moment. It is hard to think that his experiment could falsely find nicotine that wasn't present. It seems more likely that either DVap's experiment missed some nicotine, or that some other difference between the experiments means that there is a wide range of possible nicotine destruction in the atomizer. In does seem that as much as 92% of the nicotine in e-liquid can be presented to our body by vaping.

DVap's work has shown that we can generally believe e-liquids to contain the stated amount of nicotine.

So on the face of it we're left with any absorption number from 0 to 90% of an e-liquid's stated content being possible.

We now know that for some people there's a missing X factor which is not nicotine. And DVap has done excellent work in producing "WTA" which provides that X factor. I don't think this is necessarily related to the nicotine absorption discrepancy because there are also many happy vapers who don't seem to need the X factor.

It has often been suggested that the nicotine discrepancy is due to a placebo effect. I reject this notion. There are very many reports by satisfied vapers which show them to be a group who have failed many other methods of nicotine replacement at reduced levels. Many switched to lower nicotine cigarettes and automatically increased their intake to compensate. On the whole I think this is a group of people who are unlikely to benefit from placebo effects. They need their nicotine and their bodies tell them when they don't get it. There must be a chemical reason for the discrepancy.

I have found some interesting thoughts about the discrepancy which remain unexplored as far as I know. I've included links to them below. I hope that someone may be inspired by these to further our collective understanding.

Atreides Ghola, a biologist who was active on the forum in June 2009, emphasized that it is a misconception that nicotine blood levels reflect the efficacy of nicotine delivery to the brain, and described the chemical processes involved in the following three posts:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-absorbtion-vaping-research-4.html#post346264
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-absorbtion-vaping-research-4.html#post346460
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-absorbtion-vaping-research-4.html#post346850

Kurt hypothesized variations in people oxidizing nicotine which is delivered orally:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...lab-results-nicotine-levels-2.html#post696047

kinabaloo suggested that nicotine might be persisting in the lungs for a period of time:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-absorbtion-vaping-research-2.html#post245734

Whatever the reason for it I think that the blood tests we have seen are wrong in some important sense. Atreides Ghola's note about nicotine blood levels rings true to me. Measuring blood nicotine level only determines what "reserve" is available at a given moment. It doesn't necessarily correlate to nicotine absorption and almost certainly doesn't correlate to satisfaction. What we'd ideally like to know is how much nicotine is in use at a given moment and how much remains available in some type of reserve (blood, unabsorbed yet but will be eventually, and perhaps others.) I think that measurements of cotinine and other metabolic products over longer intervals are more likely to give a good indication of how much nicotine was absorbed than snapshots of blood nicotine.

Many vapers seem to move to a practice of vaping continuously, i.e. of vaping at much shorter intervals than they used to have between cigarettes. I think that this practice may result in a more even level of effective (in-use in the brain) nicotine and may offset to some degree the lack of MAOIs in e-liquid. Vapers have this option because the device is capable of one puff at a time with no waste. Due to more frequent doses they may need to absorb less nicotine because they don't need as much reserve circulating in the blood stream. Smokers lose a lot of that reserve (part ends up unused) due to its fairly short half-life. On the other hand, vapers may also need more nicotine at shorter intervals in order to maintain a high level of dopamine because they aren't getting the MAOIs delivered by cigarettes.

In summary, despite the bits of blood evidence which have been interpreted to the contrary, I think that we're absorbing somewhere around 50% of the nicotine in e-liquid. Much remains to be understood in how that nicotine is being delivered and being processed.
 
A good overview.

Just one thing - the rate of absorption is not very much slower for vaping - perhaps twice as long some say - so exhalation would seem to be the key - a lot is exhaled, partly because it has longer to do so and perhaps patly because less 'sticks' in the body somehow (as was recently discussed but can't see quite why). So I concur with 50% for now*, but there is still much uncertainty.

It's odd that DVap's figure matched his hypothetical 40%, allowing only a small amount exhaled; perhaps coincidence. As it is unlikely (though I'm not giving up the possibility just yet) that over-measurement could occur, Exo's figures, as the highest, are the ones to go with (for now at least). Which leaves some puzzles; including what happens (what forms) the lost 8% or so, perhaps higher in the more inconsistent real world, nicotine - any harmful by-products (as they are as i understand it not simple oxidation products as these would titrate 'as nicotine').

* On the basis that intake of nic from analogs could indeed often be higher than box figures would suggest.
 
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exogenesis

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Excellent post Mister, after re-finding the first link again,
I read it all the way through as well, & Atreides Ghola's explanation
did seem very reasonable, the blood nic level as a reservoir
for the brain to 'use' (i.e. before metabolic breakdown) seems
straightforward, but surely it is the amount adsorbed (?).
Or did I mis-understand what you meant.

Getting a straight answer from all these conflicting numbers might
be a bit like squaring the circle, but we've got to keep having at it :)


Kin. where did you get that 'twice as long' rate, my experience is that it's
far longer for vaping than ciggies.
Personally I think this is the major cause of the discrepency,
i.e. a much much slower rate from PG/VG 'bound' nicotine than smoke,
possibly even protecting the nic. from use by the brain until it is substantially metabolised.
 

Mister

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the blood nic level as a reservoir for the brain to 'use' (i.e. before metabolic breakdown) seems straightforward, but surely it is the amount adsorbed (?)

That's what Atreides Ghola's post made me question. Is it the amount absorbed or does much of the nicotine rapidly leave the bloodstream. Of special interest would be questions such as whether it might preferentially pass the blood brain barrier, whether it enters the bloodstream more slowly when vaping, and how quickly the brain needs to refresh its internal nicotine supply. It could be that the blood level is indicative of what's absorbed only for a very brief time after absorption.

I'm way past my depth in this stuff but continuing to plug away anyway I have found two interesting references.

Metabolism and Disposition Kinetics of Nicotine ? Pharmacological Reviews

The above article contains a wealth of information about the metabolism of nicotine and related subjects.

An interesting note in it: "[nicotine] Blood levels peak at the end of smoking a cigarette and decline rapidly over the next 20 min due to tissue distribution. The distribution half-life averages about 8 min." If I'm reading that correctly, blood tests taken even a few minutes after last inhalation may be unreliable indicators.

They also note that "Because of the long half-life of cotinine, it has been used as a biomarker for daily intake, both in cigarette smokers and in those exposed to environmental tobacco smoke (Benowitz, 1996a). There is a high correlation among cotinine concentrations measured in plasma, saliva, and urine, and measurements in any one of these fluids can be used as a marker of nicotine intake."

Accumulation of Nicotine and Its Metabolites in Rat Brain After Intermittent or Continuous Peripheral Administration of [2?-14C]Nicotine ? DMD

Note that this article describes research using rats so the applicability of the results to humans is not established.

It references previous research saying that "Nicotine has been reported to accumulate in various rat tissues to afford concentrations 2-to 5-fold higher than those in plasma (Schmiterlow et al., 1967; Stalhandske, 1967; Tsujimoto et al., 1975)."

It finds that "Nicotine concentrations plateaued in both blood and brain after the fifth dose, indicating that equilibrium was attained between nicotine elimination and brain/blood distribution. Importantly, the brain/blood ratio for nicotine was ~4, indicating that nicotine preferentially distributes from the periphery to the CNS compartment."
 
Excellent post Mister, after re-finding the first link again,
I read it all the way through as well, & Atreides Ghola's explanation
did seem very reasonable, the blood nic level as a reservoir
for the brain to 'use' (i.e. before metabolic breakdown) seems
straightforward, but surely it is the amount adsorbed (?).
Or did I mis-understand what you meant.

Getting a straight answer from all these conflicting numbers might
be a bit like squaring the circle, but we've got to keep having at it :)


Kin. where did you get that 'twice as long' rate, my experience is that it's
far longer for vaping than ciggies.
Personally I think this is the major cause of the discrepency,
i.e. a much much slower rate from PG/VG 'bound' nicotine than smoke,
possibly even protecting the nic. from use by the brain until it is substantially metabolised.

I have always thought the absorption rate to be more like 10x longer, but saw this figure in a study - recently mentined somewhere on the forums. It could be wrong.

Is nicotine just a neurotoxin? No danger from high blood levels? Seems incongruous that it can store up in the blood; why would it? Need to lok at both blood and metabolic products over time to see if this is at all real.

We also need to bear in mind that 70x variation in nic levels (forget of what exactly) between people, presumably through varation in habit - depth of draw etc. Some people might never reach significantly a level where diminised returns, psycho-effects-wise, kicks in and so can get by with little nic easily whereas for others small amounts 'do nothing'.
 
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