How Vaping will be Effectively Banned Nationwide

[UncleChuck]

Even if it does go to sales of pre 2007 levels I know several folks within walking distance of me that make their own e-liquids. I see in this instance Vape easy's opening up and underground rings starting to form to trade necessary mods, batteries and various devices.
Flash light sales would increase 100 fold all of a sudden..
Truth-They can't ban PG (can regulate it but not ban it)
They can't ban VG (can regulate it, but not ban it)
Flavorings are used the world wide and consumer purposes.
Nicotine is a pesticide that farmers use very often, or you can steep your own.

They can't even ban mods. Any retailer could easily sell any mod, and simply include a little 5 cent LED wired to a 50 cent 510 connection and call it a variable wattage flashlight, or a mechanical flashlight, or an eGo flashlight, etc. Private transactions will be totally unaffected, as regulations effect commerce, which private transactions don't fall under usually.

Really the only hardware they are going to be able to successfully ban is probably stuff like cartos, cigalike kits, etc. And those are unlikely to get banned because big tobacco is in that market.

As you mentioned you will always be able to make your own juice, and it would be easy to have a setup where juice is still commercially available. You just sell nic free juice with a little empty space in the bottle, say it's for aroma therapy vapor, and then sell nic base elsewhere on the site.

I'm not really that worried anymore, I absolutely hate any involvement from government and will fight it at every turn, but they are impotent, and too stupid to successfully regulate this industry.

They can't stop the flow of hardware, it will just be sold under different names/uses

They can't stop juice, it will flow around the barriers of legislation like... well like juice.

They likely won't stop cigalikes because big tobacco has investments in that area.

Worse case scenario as I see it, the only thing legally able to be sold AS an ecigs is cigalikes, yet everything else is still available under a different name/use. New people will still be introduced via cigalikes, and when they want something more they can still come to forums and find out the tricks of getting the good stuff.

It's going to be a hassle, and it's wrong we should be forced to resort to those means, but if you want to vape nothing will be able to stop you, period. They will never go around throwing folks in jail for carrying a PV on them.

 

[Botomline]

You guys are on a roll with this one!!


What is it going to look like when they end up in court?

It would be short at best and we would be outgunned from the very beginning. Government and big business have warchests, our side does not. And without a sustained source of income from sales of vaping products, it's unlikely anyone would be organized in a fashion to generate one comparative to the opposition who is organized and well funded.

 

[Stosh]

Outright bans might be difficult but they would go the other route in any case...tax it to death. Go figure what you're paying in say gas taxes, beer & wine tax, distilled spirits tax, and all the hidden taxes you pay on food, water, and everything else you consume.

 

[Botomline]

They can't even ban mods. Any retailer could easily sell any mod, and simply include a little 5 cent LED wired to a 50 cent 510 connection and call it a variable wattage flashlight, or a mechanical flashlight, or an eGo flashlight, etc. Private transactions will be totally unaffected, as regulations effect commerce, which private transactions don't fall under usually.

I'm still waiting for someone to create my vape-capable Maglite.

 

[wv2win]

...........................

It's going to be a hassle, and it's wrong we should be forced to resort to those means, but if you want to vape nothing will be able to stop you, period. They will never go around throwing folks in jail for carrying a PV on them.

They could tightly control nicotine and make it extremely difficult and expensive to get. The vast majority, 99%, will not try to steep nicotine out of tobacco. Accidents could also occur from lack of knowledge that could seriously harm someone. Due to the cost to meet the deeming regulations, it would hand vaping over to BT and their bottom of the barrel products. Vaping as we know it will be dead and very possibly die a slow death due to the lack of new people in the market, lack of competition and lack of choice.

We need to think beyond what we as an individual might be able to do to break the law and vape, IMO. The fight is now.

 

[Bolivar]

Outright bans might be difficult but they would go the other route in any case...tax it to death. Go figure what you're paying in say gas taxes, beer & wine tax, distilled spirits tax, and all the hidden taxes you pay on food, water, and everything else you consume.

Cigarette taxes aren't anything to ignore. They range from 30 cents a pack (Vigrinia) to $4.35 (New York). In NJ you were paying $2.70 a pack tax.

I can see the government taxing nicotine to the point a bottle of juice costs as much as a pack of cigarettes....or more.




Sent from the north 40 via messenger cow

 

[Stosh]

Cigarette taxes aren't anything to ignore. They range from 30 cents a pack (Vigrinia) to $4.35 (New York). In NJ you were paying $2.70 a pack tax.

I can see the government taxing nicotine to the point a bottle of juice costs as much as a pack of cigarettes....or more.

I would bet on more....10 mL = 2 cartons or some such rot...

 

[navigator2011]

Cigarette taxes aren't anything to ignore. They range from 30 cents a pack (Vigrinia) to $4.35 (New York). In NJ you were paying $2.70 a pack tax.

I can see the government taxing nicotine to the point a bottle of juice costs as much as a pack of cigarettes....or more.




Sent from the north 40 via messenger cow

Um, try 1.0ml of 18mg juice costing the same as a pack of cigs--I keep seeing the equivalency being set at roughly 15 ml of 18mg juice being about the same as a carton of smokes in terms of nicotine content. To get an idea of the cost of nicotine elsewhere, just do a per-milligram cost analysis on the patches, gum, and tablets. In some cases, the NRT is actually more expensive than cigarettes (assuming 1.0 mg effective nicotine per cigarette). So, yeah, juice is going to be very costly when based on nicotine content.

 

[Plumes.91]

Idk. If they think they can control e-cigs because they can legally control tobacco... Our e-cigarettes only contain an extracted alkaloid from the tobacco leaf. Do they control nicotine, or do they control tobacco? They need to figure that out. There are a lot of examples I can think of where the governement controls something, but not alkaloids from it. There are other examples of alkaloids the government controls, but not the plant itself. Poppy is what our pain medications are made from. We can grow them in our yard. We can even cut them, bring them inside, and put them in a bouquet. But the minute we extract the latex from the pods, it becomes a controlled substance. We can grow tobacco in our homes, under lights. Tobacco is completely legal to grow. But apparently as soon as we extract the nicotine from the tobacco leaves, it becomes a controlled substance? Is that right? Or does it become a controlled substance the minute we put that nicotine up for sale?

I don't like this regulation. Nicotine is a legal substance and they shouldn't be able to ban certain types of it or certain ways it is presented to the buyer. What if I put it in a slice of cheese cake? Would nicotine cheesecake be up for a federal ban? Why should a government controlled agency be able to snuff out an entire market sector? If I want to make nicotine extract, I should be able to if the plant is legal to possess and if its legal to smoke said plant matter. Right? Unless the nicotine extract causes immediate widespread harm.

 

[Plumes.91]

We vapers know that 30ml of juice usually lasts around 5-7 days if it has 12-18mg nicotine content. At less than 12mg, a 30ml bottle of juice will last LESS time, because we will vape more of it per vape session. So an agency should NOT be able to tax on bottle size. That would be like taxing a pack of 10 cigarettes as a pack of 20 cigarettes. We all need around 5ml of juice per day, give or take 1-2ml either way. So 5ml should be the standard for a single pack of cigarettes. If a carton of smokes has 20 packs, then 100ml of juice would be a carton of cigarettes on that scale. At least at 5ml, even below 12mg nicotine content, we would have a cushion of a ml or 2 more than we vape at higher mg contents. If you vape 12mg-4ml a day, then if you buy 6mg at 5ml it'll even out.

 

[Botomline]

Don't delude yourself. It isn't a question of "If", but of "when & how". The only thing that seems to be slowing them down so far is they seem to be overreaching. Once they get a foothold it's only a matter of time before they keep pushing that out.

On our side are facts and a fast growing population of users. We will hold them off by making the facts and benefits ubiquitous information and growing the population of users. The more people that know, the harder it will be for them to spin and the harder it will be for them to enact harsh regulation. But have no doubt they are determined and will keep trying until something sticks.

 

[Vermonster13]

People need to stop talking sense and like our opposition is reasonable, they're not. We face rabid antz and greedy politicians, science and common sense can only be used if it works for them. Truth has no place.

 

[Bolivar]

The politicians have seen the $$$ cigarette tax brings in. With more people finding they can quit smoking by vaping, the revenues are starting to decline. Vaping is too big of a cash cow to ignore.




Sent from the north 40 via messenger cow

 

[CabinetGuyScott]

They could tightly control nicotine and make it extremely difficult and expensive to get. The vast majority, 99%, will not try to steep nicotine out of tobacco. Accidents could also occur from lack of knowledge that could seriously harm someone. Due to the cost to meet the deeming regulations, it would hand vaping over to BT and their bottom of the barrel products. Vaping as we know it will be dead and very possibly die a slow death due to the lack of new people in the market, lack of competition and lack of choice.

We need to think beyond what we as an individual might be able to do to break the law and vape, IMO. The fight is now.

Yes, The fight is now!

 

[CabinetGuyScott]

It would be short at best and we would be outgunned from the very beginning. Government and big business have warchests, our side does not. And without a sustained source of income from sales of vaping products, it's unlikely anyone would be organized in a fashion to generate one comparative to the opposition who is organized and well funded.

Since 2009 was in my PV (pre-vape) PV days, I don't know the answer to this question:

Who beat back the FDA in 2009?

 

[sonicdsl]

Since 2009 was in my PV (pre-vape) PV days, I don't know the answer to this question:

Who beat back the FDA in 2009?

NJOY & Smoking Everywhere (now defunct) vs FDA

CASAA Smoking Everywhere vs. FDA

 

[UncleChuck]

They could tightly control nicotine and make it extremely difficult and expensive to get. The vast majority, 99%, will not try to steep nicotine out of tobacco. Accidents could also occur from lack of knowledge that could seriously harm someone. Due to the cost to meet the deeming regulations, it would hand vaping over to BT and their bottom of the barrel products. Vaping as we know it will be dead and very possibly die a slow death due to the lack of new people in the market, lack of competition and lack of choice.

We need to think beyond what we as an individual might be able to do to break the law and vape, IMO. The fight is now.

Good point, the nic is sort of our Achilles tendon. Stiffer regulations on nic would probably have effects in other industries, and cause other problems, I don't think it would be clean or easy to keep nic from us. Not saying it's impossible, it just seems unlikely to me at least. Also considering the astounding ignorance of regulators I'd be surprised if they even knew people bought liquid

Big tobacco controlling the ecig market wouldn't be good, that's for sure, but I disagree that it would kill vaping as we know it. Us people here on ECF are still the minority, not everyone makes vaping a hobby like we do. Most people just want something that looks like a cig and gives them nicotine, and BT products will do that just as good as any other cigalike out there.

If people do want more, they will have to invest time and effort, that's no different than now.

I get what your saying, this does need to be fought in all ways possible, I'm not suggesting people ignore the problem, quite the opposite, but I just like to stay honest and I truthfully don't feel vaping is ever going away in a significant fashion barring discovery of horrible long term effects or something. But my confidence in vaping sticking around doesn't cause me to take the fight any less seriously, if anything it strengthens it because I'm sure we will win.

 

[UncleChuck]

I can see the government taxing nicotine to the point a bottle of juice costs as much as a pack of cigarettes....or more.

How would they do that though?

If they put a tax on nicotine, that would mean additional taxes on traditional cigarettes as well. It would also mean taxes on hookah tobacco, pipe tobacco, cigars, absolutely everything tobacco related. Taxes placed upon things like nicotine gum and patches. Currently nicotine is also being researched for treating certain brain conditions, and has industrial uses.

It would be very difficult to do a blanket nicotine tax, taxing juice? That would be rather easy, but we could just get around that by selling nic free juice with nic shots sold separately added in. They couldn't tax nic free juice, because nic free juice is simple, common, widely used chemicals.

The government is stuck, I wouldn't put it past them to outreach their authority, or pass straight up illegal legislation, but it's going to be difficult for them to mess with vaping. If it was easy they would have done it before the ranks of supporters have swollen so large. The longer they wait, the harder it will be, and they know that.

 

[Red Horn]

=Bramble;12352228 WHY do we have the continual drumbeat against them, from the anti-smoking organizations? It's not only the government, it's the ALA and Tobacco Free Kids saying that these are the same thing as smoking.

People tend to fear what they know nothing about. We all know smoking is not good for ones health. Inhaling vapor to them is like smoking and therefore must also be bad. Fear in society tends to spread like wildfire.

 

[BeRight]

The federal tax man is not far away - already starting at state level ( I live in Maryland and it is soon to be set at 95%).

Vaping is now big big business - nicotine is bad and therefore must be regulated and taxed.