Superb work!
I'm not going to pick you up on "miniscule" (actually properly "minuscule") - I'm just a pedant
A definite 'cut-out-and-keeper', even if I'm non-US - well done!
If Someone Tells You That "Miniscule" Isn't a Real Spelling
Teehee
How we know PG is safer than analog cigarettes
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If Someone Tells You That "Miniscule" Isn't a Real Spelling
Teehee
Exactly what was "in a huff" about what I said? I was just asking a question too -
This is the problem with reading on a message board and not hearing the *tone* in which something is said. My bad..
Robbie
Hey guys here is the toxicology report from Smokester of E-Cigs.co.uk .
Go here and under the second heading there is a PDF of the results.** UPDATED ** NEWS : E-Cigs.co.uk, Online Store
Seriously it rocks. Could be good news huh?
I found it under the Supporting Suppliers forums
Go here and under the second heading there is a PDF of the results.** UPDATED ** NEWS : E-Cigs.co.uk, Online Store
Seriously it rocks.
Could be good news huh? I found it under the Supporting Suppliers forums
What are you referring to, Goddess? I don't see 'black page'
scylla
In the originally posted opener to this thread.
Propylene Glycol Research Study Results
I seeeeeee (I thought you were referring to the e-cigs.co.uk link) - yes, not nice
If you really want to read it, it can help if you hold down Ctrl and use the mouse scroll to make the text much bigger. I'm lucky, I have a 1680x1050 laptop screen so it's very clear no matter how much I magnify it, I realise it could go fuzzy at lower resolutions.
scylla
If you really want to read it, it can help if you hold down Ctrl and use the mouse scroll to make the text much bigger. I'm lucky, I have a 1680x1050 laptop screen so it's very clear no matter how much I magnify it, I realise it could go fuzzy at lower resolutions.
scylla
I seeeeeee (I thought you were referring to the e-cigs.co.uk link) - yes, not nice
If you really want to read it, it can help if you hold down Ctrl and use the mouse scroll to make the text much bigger. I'm lucky, I have a 1680x1050 laptop screen so it's very clear no matter how much I magnify it, I realise it could go fuzzy at lower resolutions.
scylla
It's just the contrast of the white text on the black background that aggravates my eyes.
I seeeeeee (I thought you were referring to the e-cigs.co.uk link) - yes, not nice
If you really want to read it, it can help if you hold down Ctrl and use the mouse scroll to make the text much bigger. I'm lucky, I have a 1680x1050 laptop screen so it's very clear no matter how much I magnify it, I realise it could go fuzzy at lower resolutions.
scylla
Sorry!!!! Will change to black on white asap...
My opinion as a vaping physician....
First of all, although this is a great thread and Spikey posts some good info, I hate to have to be the one to throw a monkey wrench in the whole thing, but from FDA's point of view, the safety profile of PG is not the issue. (Please, don't throw stones at me until you've read the whole post.)
Nicotine juice usually has three main ingredients: nicotine, PG, and flavorings. The safety profile of each of these ingredients has been well tested (assuming the flavoring is FDA approved). However, the FDA's stance is that the combination has not been. Suppose, PG and nicotine combine at room tempurature to form a new compound, called glycinated nicotine. Say that tests on glycinated nicotine lead to a large increase in the incidence of the lethal PooPoo Syndrome.
Suppose the combination of ingredients is safe at room temperature, but the ingredients are heated up enough to form a vapor. The combination of nicotine, PG, and DooDoo-berry flavoring lead to a compound called polypropene nicotinide. This polypropene nicotinide causes the dreaded Boohoo disease, for which there is no treatment and leads to a slow, painful death.
This is the FDA's stance when they say that vaping cannot be considered safe. Even though the ingredients are well studied, the new combination and the delivery method hasn't been. For this reason, if an FDA approved drug makes any changes, such as going from a rapid release form to a slow acting formulation, it needs to be studied and then resubmitted for approval as a "new" drug. Even generic versions of known drugs require FDA approval for the generic form. This approval is faster, since the safety and effectiveness studies on the individual ingredients do not need to be repeated, just the new combination and/or new delivery method.
Spikey's info about the safety of PG would surely be something that would speed up FDA approval, but by itself, it's not enough. Ruyan has made a fantastic start with their studies, and even the FDA's own study can be used to support vaping over smoking. But they will want a bunch more studies, initially on a small scale, then larger studies on more people.
With that said, my own opinion is this. Will I give up my PV, which uses known safe ingredients in an untested combination, which MIGHT be dangerous? Or will I go back to analogs w/ their hundreds of known carcinogens which ARE certainly dangerous?
Duh!
First of all, although this is a great thread and Spikey posts some good info, I hate to have to be the one to throw a monkey wrench in the whole thing, but from FDA's point of view, the safety profile of PG is not the issue. (Please, don't throw stones at me until you've read the whole post.)
Nicotine juice usually has three main ingredients: nicotine, PG, and flavorings. The safety profile of each of these ingredients has been well tested (assuming the flavoring is FDA approved). However, the FDA's stance is that the combination has not been. Suppose, PG and nicotine combine at room tempurature to form a new compound, called glycinated nicotine. Say that tests on glycinated nicotine lead to a large increase in the incidence of the lethal PooPoo Syndrome.
Suppose the combination of ingredients is safe at room temperature, but the ingredients are heated up enough to form a vapor. The combination of nicotine, PG, and DooDoo-berry flavoring lead to a compound called polypropene nicotinide. This polypropene nicotinide causes the dreaded Boohoo disease, for which there is no treatment and leads to a slow, painful death.
This is the FDA's stance when they say that vaping cannot be considered safe. Even though the ingredients are well studied, the new combination and the delivery method hasn't been. For this reason, if an FDA approved drug makes any changes, such as going from a rapid release form to a slow acting formulation, it needs to be studied and then resubmitted for approval as a "new" drug. Even generic versions of known drugs require FDA approval for the generic form. This approval is faster, since the safety and effectiveness studies on the individual ingredients do not need to be repeated, just the new combination and/or new delivery method.
Spikey's info about the safety of PG would surely be something that would speed up FDA approval, but by itself, it's not enough. Ruyan has made a fantastic start with their studies, and even the FDA's own study can be used to support vaping over smoking. But they will want a bunch more studies, initially on a small scale, then larger studies on more people.
With that said, my own opinion is this. Will I give up my PV, which uses known safe ingredients in an untested combination, which MIGHT be dangerous? Or will I go back to analogs w/ their hundreds of known carcinogens which ARE certainly dangerous?
Duh!
Territoo--your analysis from a physician's vantage point is well taken and appreciated. These are the unknowns that we have a right to know though competent studies---studies that should have been done long ago by the manufactures instead of just pocketing the profits.
Thanks,
Sun
Territoo, the flaw in your argument is that in fact nic liquid is not a "new" combination at all. Propylene glycol is an ingredient in cigarettes. Flavors are also ingredients in cigarettes. Check any site listing cigarette ingredients and you will see PG listed, along with all the other thousands of additives.
However, cigarettes are not under the jurisdiction of the FDA, so they are not considered "drugs" and are not subject to the same approval process as something that is considered a drug to be.
This is where Smoking Everywhere's lawsuit come into play. If nicotine liquid is considered a tobacco product, rather than a drug, the results of testing will not legally matter. Otherwise my argument still holds.
I believe that congress has recently given the FDA jurisdiction over tobacco products.
If I thought for one moment that the actions of the FDA were always done in the name of fairness and public safety I would be waiting with baited breath for their opinion on the safety of e-cig juice. There are many drugs on the market, with FDA aproval, that have large health risks. Take for example the recent approval of Celebrex, sorry for the spelling. The medical opinion was that even though there were significant risks to some persons, the benefits out weighted the risks. While I agree with this position, it should be noted that this is a pattern which should be applied to e-cigs. Whatever the risks, compared to distilled water, should out weigh the results and that the risk of continued exposure to standard cigarettes is significant.
Of course this is based on a non-political and unbiased opinion.
Kevin
You are right. FDA now has jurisdiction over cigarrettes, but they are not going to test and regulate them the same way as they do drugs. Otherwise, they already have more than enough data to ban tobacco. We all know that isn't going to happen. BT has too much money and power for that.
Comparing an ecig to an analog is useless. Even though an analog may contain all the same ingredients found in nic juice, it contains so many more chemicals, many which are know to be hazardous. Does that make the ingredients in nic juice hazardous when isolated from the hazards? Guilt by association.
Exactly! How many times do you see something on the tv about one of these "approved" drugs killing someone, even though it was supposedly taken properly. Like the patch, it was safe, but some of them leaked and have hurt and killed people. Anything can be "dangerous", it's all about how it's made and what the premise of the whole thing is. I can't ever see anyone overdosing on a PV, unless they happen to get something in it that they are allergic to and don't know about. But hell, that could happen at any time with anything if you don't know that you are allergic.
When I was a baby, I had the russian flu, better know now as the bird flu. They gave me Pennecillin and it almost killed me. That was a good approved drug, but it almost killed me because nobody knew that I was allergic to it since I was a baby.
I would like to see test results on eliquid. They need to get a broader sample than the 2 products they tested. There are 2 companies, Johnson Creek and Echopure which claim to produce non tobacco based nicotine.
The approach so far seems to be guilty until proven innocent. Most of the vendors in this industry are small business and the FDA seems intent on destroying these small vendors. The big tobacco industry has much deeper pockets and can weather the storm better.
Kevin
This is a risk of ANY drug. (Also foods, cosmetics, hygiene products, ect...) Nothing is guaranteed safe. The question becomes risk verses benfit. Take vaccines for an example.
100 years ago smallpox disease killed people, then the vaccine was discovered. This vaccine had some serious reactions, sometimes fatal, in a few people. However, a lot more people became immune to smallpox and were saved by this vaccine. The benefit was greater than the risk.
Then smallpox was eradicated in the global population, only existing in laboratory settings. The last death to smallpox was in the 1960's, due to a lab accident. Thus, the potential for serious harm due to the vaccine was greater than the possibility of dying from smallpox. The risk was greater than the benefit. Smallpox vaccination was halted.
Now we have terrorists who threaten to use the smallpox virus as a bioweapon. Who is at risk for the disease now? Not the entire world population (at least not yet), but select groups of people: soldiers, health care workers in high risk areas, ect. The risk verses benefit becomes individualized.
Now take nicotine. In other forms (nicotinic acid) it has medicinal uses (as a cholesterol lowering agent), but the form that we have now is recreational usage. Its medicinal use is a result of addiction from the recreational use. Nicotine's risk for nonsmokers is greater than the benefit. However, for us nicotine addicts, a form of nicotine that is safer than smoking has greater benefit than risk.
That last sentence is the point that the FDA doesn't seem to get. To take e cigarrettes off the market, they should prove that it is riskier than smoking.
Normally, the FDA works the other way around. The product is kept off the market until the risks v. benefit is determined. E cigarette vendors went around that, and now the cat is out of the bag. Normally I'd think that the FDA would be right in banning such an untested product. In this case though, we know the alternative (smoking) is harmful, whereas the nicotine liquid has reason to be probably safer than smoking, even if it cannot be considered "safe". The benefits of leaving the ecigarettes on the market pending safety studies outweighs the risk of removing them for the years necessary (NJOY claimed 8 years in their claim to the court) to conduct such studies. How many people will die of smoking related deaths in eight years?
Dr. Whalen's article in the Washington Times states over 450,00 smoking related deaths annually. In eight years 3,600,000 people will die! To my knowledge, in the 5+ years the ecigarette has been on the market worldwide, there have been no reports of serious incidents, much less any deaths.
Any 3 year old could do the math on this one.
Kevin,
I think we all would like to see the studies done. There have been a few other small studies done, but nothing on the scale that the FDA requires.
NJOY stated in a brief submitted to the court that it would take one billion dollars and eight years to conduct the studies required by the FDA. The only ones w/ that sort of resource are BT and BP. They'll do them if they feel it is to their benefit only.
I don't see BT doing it since all it does is switch users from one of their products to another. BP may do it, since their current NRT is crap. But it would cost much much more than it does today and would be prescription only. The only benefit I see in BP getting ahold of ecigarettes is that we would get a better product w/ known ingredients and maybe better equiment too.
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