I am still really not understanding how to use a mechanical mod safety (ohms)

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Timboo

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Let's say I am using an AW 18650 battery in a mechanical mod. I wrap a 0.8 ohm coil on a rda . Why do I need to look at an ohm Chart to make sure it's safe? I can't change anything else but the ohms on the coil so what else can I do? The battery will stay at 3.7v till it drops. so I can't change that. I hear people going much lower than 0.8 so when people say make sure you check the ohm law I just don't get it.

All I am aware of is to make sure it doesn't discharge.

I hope I have made sense of my confusion.

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Lessifer

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From what I understand, which admittedly isn't much, you want to make sure that your voltage(with a fresh battery it will be 4.2 not 3.7 on an unregulated mod) and your resistance don't lead you to drawing more amps than your battery will safely supply. I think, if I've calculated correctly, a 0.8 coil at 4.2v is about 5.5 amps; which would be perfectly fine on a battery rated up to 10 amps.

But I don't do mechanicals or sub ohm coils yet so I may be completely wrong.
 

LucentShadow

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You've probably been subjected to people spouting warnings that they don't understand at you, which is not uncommon.

Besides making sure that there are no short-circuits, which you said that you do, the main concern is not demanding more than your battery is designed to give, as already mentioned above.

Aside from that, taking care that your atomizer of choice is set up properly to deliver fast enough for your chosen wattage would be prudent. Overheated e-liquid is not recommended by many.
 

Timboo

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Ok thank you. So how do I find out what the maximum out put of the battery is?

If 0.8ohms demands around 5amps and the battery has a limit of 10 then surely there is no worry here?

I do not currently own a mod but it is in the post. Done hours of reading the past month on all safety asects. This is just the one thing I can not get my head around.

Maybe someone has a different way of explaining it?

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LucentShadow

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Looking up the specifications of the battery is the only way to know for sure what the discharge rating is for the battery. 'AW 18650' is not enough information to go on. If it's an AW IMR 18650, you're probably well within the operational range. Usually, the seller will have the specs on the product listing for the battery.

Battery Discharge Methods

The above link explains more on this subject.
 

BurntHit

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Jul 11, 2013
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As other mentioned… it’s about coil resistance and battery discharge rates

Battery discharge rates vary from manufacture to manufacture and from cell model to model… you just have to look it up.

For Example:
AW ICR and AW IMR cells are examples two cells with different chemistry, and also have different discharge characteristics.

Even within the same IMR family from the manufacture you can find two different cells, the 1600mAh version and the 2000mAh rating. The 1600mAh cell has a lower internal resistance and is able to deliver more amperage.

I don’t like quoting hard figures (battery specs) for safety purposes, it’s up to you to do the math and see if it’s within safe operating range.

Thinks to take into consideration when selecting a battery is duty cycle… some batteries may be rated for 10A peak discharge and 5A continuous. Some of the advertised figures may be peak ratings… it would be wise to select a cell which would give you some leeway for safety purposes.

Personally I take the peak battery voltage to add in a margin of safety. I also select a cell which has a generous continuous discharge rate over my intended target.

Other consideration is battery health… chances are you will end up going with a hybrid or IMR chemistry. I have used protected ICR cells for years, but most of that has stemmed from my high end flashlight days… I am still comfortable using them, within their limits.

In addition to the above, be mindful of charge rates, minimum discharge voltage, and general battery maintenance… this goes to both safety and cell service life. I charge all my cells using a hobby charger where I can monitor voltage and set charge rates and termination voltage at 4.1v

Hope that helps.
 

Timboo

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Ok thanks a lot. It's starting to make a bit more sense now being the thing that is important is to know your battery discharge limit and work out what your amp output is.

I have a aw imr 18650 2000mah. After a little research i found the details of this battery :

Nominal Voltage : 3.7V
Capacity : 2000mAH
Lowest Discharge Voltage : 2.50V
Standard Charge : CC/CV ( max. charging rate 2A )
Cycle Life : > 500 cycles
Max. continuous discharge rate : 10A
Operating Discharge Temperature : -10 - 60 Degree Celsius

So from what i understand this battery has a 10a max discharge rate. Am I doing the maths with the battery being fresh at 4.2 volts or am I working it out with the nominal voltage at 3.7volts?

I just went onto the ohm law calculator. I put in 0.8ohm and 3.7volts and pressed enter. It says 4.62amps as the current. So is this the maths I need to be doing? Because if that's right the amps are well in the discharge rate.

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zoiDman

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Am I on the right path here?!

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I think you are.

Two concepts that I would Always consider:

Can the Battery Handle what I'm about to do?
Can the PV Handle what I'm about to do?

Also. Give yourself a Little "Wiggle Room". Believe it or Not, some Battery OEM's may Inflate the Actual performance of a Batteries "C" and or it's mAh.

So if you do all the Math and Find you are right on the Theoretical Threshold of what your Battery is Supposed to be able to handle, you may Not. You may be Exceeding it.
 

BurntHit

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Timboo,

You are on the right track…
In terms of ohms law, your figures are correct, but like I said I always take the peak battery voltage since it adds in a small margin of safety when doing battery selection. At 4.2v the worst case scenario is 5.3A. 4.6A based on the nominal voltage.

I see the same information for the AW IMR 2000mah, 10A discharge.

The 1600mAh version of that battery is 15C discharge… 1600 x 15C = 24000 / 1000 = 24 Amps… if my math of correct off the top of my head…

I actually use this battery for my mech mods, along with the 30A Sony battery …

Closer you get to the max discharge of the battery, the more heat the battery will generate, it’s up to you to decide what type of safety margin you want when dealing with battery selection. Anything sub ohm I tend to go with higher discharge rates, primarily because the battery will also last longer.

I tent to recharge these batteries every day, and cell life is important to me when I buy top dollar cells. Pushing cells to their limits in the charge/discharge process will reduce cell life.
 

LucentShadow

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When using known resistance and voltage to calculate amperage, it's simply I = E / R, or amps = volts / ohms.

I would not ignore the freshly-charged voltage of 4.2v, though it won't remain there for very long. Theoretically, with .8 ohms, you'll be pulling:

5.25 amps at 4.2v (freshly charged), 4.625 amps at 3.7v (the average voltage for the discharge cycle), and 4 amps at 3.2v (when you should consider recharging, before the cell gets to an unsafe condition).

These numbers will not likely be exact, due to too many factors being unknown, such as resistance of the rest of the circuit (and the changing internal resistance of the cell itself, which affects it's performance.) It would be likely that you'd be pulling a bit less due to resistance of battery contacts and other imperfections in the circuit. Your cell's safe limits will degrade somewhat with age, though. This is why some work in a 'comfort factor'.

I'd be comfortable with using a cell at half of it's rated continuous limit, so long as I trusted the specs and remained vigilant with the condition of the cell.

Oh, and don't confuse any of this as being correct for variable voltage or wattage models, as they are a different beast. This applies to simple circuits such as the 'mechanical' that you mentioned.

(Ninja'd)
 

BurntHit

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In addition to what Lucent Shadow said, he is correct about the rest of the circuit and the resistance introduced by whatever device to decide to use.

It would be easy to test the resistance, voltage, current draw, and other factors with a decent digital multimeter which IMO everyone should own. At a bare minimum you should check coil resistance (wet and dry), along with monitoring battery voltage before and after a charge. Considering most IMR batteries do not include protection, it would be wise to monitor the cells often.

On a side note, I never allow my cell voltage to drop to unsafe levels. 2.75v is generally the published minimum, but I tent to throw them back on the charger no lower than 3.2v, and set my charge to terminate at 4.1v. While this may reduce the useable mAh for that cell for the given charge, the same cell has been in operation for the past 4-5 years with minimal performance fatigue.

I am one of those people who has a very intimate relationship with my batteries, as odd as that may sound, I do run various tests on cells that I acquire. My hobby charger allows me to connect to a PC via USB to plot discharge and charge graphs. It would be easy to visually see and understand how a cell is performing throughout its life should you care to do so. Anything out of the norm, I take the cell out of rotation and out of service.

I’m sure many of these things may not be 100% necessary for a “safe vape” but it’s something I enjoy doing. Take the time to understand as much as you can… many of the things you can learn here will help you in many other aspects in general electronics.
 
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zoiDman

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Wow thank you so much. That is the most informative replies I have had on here. Now I understand and hope this thread will help other people when they get to the same confusion I had. I shall be saving this thread for future read backs.

...

This is why Most people will post a Detailed reply.

Not just for the person who Asked the Question. But for the Hundreds who will read it Also.
 

jrod_141

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Here's (mostly) everything you need to know about mech mod safety and the electrical side of it:

given:

Nominal Voltage : 3.7V
Capacity : 2000mAH
Lowest Discharge Voltage : 2.50V
Standard Charge : CC/CV ( max. charging rate 2A )
Cycle Life : > 500 cycles
Max. continuous discharge rate : 10A
Operating Discharge Temperature : -10 - 60 Degree Celsius

And:

Power (in watts) = Volts x Amps = Volts squared / Resistance (ohms) = Current (amps) squared x Resistance (ohms)

So if we know basic algebra (or we google an "ohm's law calculator," we can determine the follwoing:


in order to maximize the amperage draw without exceeding the battery limitation listed above (call it 8 amps to be safe):

power (in watts) = volts x amps

power (in watts) = 3.7 x8.0

power (in watts) = 29.6 watts

29.6 watts is the max you can (safely) draw from your setup, so now we want to build a coil that will draw 29.6 watts.

from above:

power (in watts) = volts squared / resistance

29.6 = 3.7x3.7 / resistance

29.6 = 13.69 / resistance (multiply both sides by "resistance")

29.6 x resistance = 13.69 (divide both sides by 29.6)

resistance = .4625

so, your coil has to be .4625 ohms in order to pull 30 watts and maximize your batteries at 8 amps.

This chart is for A1 type of Kanthal wire per inch, other grades are different.

28 awg (Ω/in) 0.5 ohms
30 awg (Ω/in) 0.7 ohms
31 awg (Ω/in) 0.9 ohms
32 awg (Ω/in) 1.2 ohms
33 awg (Ω/in) 1.4 ohms
34 awg (Ω/in) 1.8 ohms
35 awg (Ω/in) 2.3 ohms
36 awg (Ω/in) 2.9 ohms

The lower the ohms per inch, the more wraps you will need (to get our .47 ohms), this can be a trade off as the thinner wire needs less wraps but also has less surface contact to the liquid. remember that the ohms-per-inch resistance table takes into account the entire length of the coil, including the tails.

so for 28 awg kanthal, we need just under an inch of wire to get .47 ohms. so what you can do is measure from the end of the wire one inch, and mark it with a permanent marker. that way, when you are winding your coil, you can see that the black mark needs to be where you cut it, and you can wrap your coil accordingly.

problem is that an inch won't cut it, and we need closer to 2 inches. so we're not going to be maxxing out our batteries if we're using 28 ga wire and wrapping more than one wrap :)

in summary: the reason why ppl want to use a larger gauge of wire, is because a larger gauge of wire has less resistance, and that means you can have more turns on your coil (and more surface area) than if you use a smaller gauge of wire. this also requires more power. the only thing you have to keep in mind, is that your power source (battery and mech mod) has to be able to put out the amount of power (in this case, about 8 amps). mech mods do not have any electronic components, so you don't have to worry about blowing up a nice electrical mod.

if you have an electric mod that can only support 5 amps, but is also limited to 1.3 ohms (like the vamo, provari or svd), you can then do the math and figure out that you can only put out 2.8 amps at 1.3 ohms, and 10.5 watts. so in order to maximize our 1.3 ohms, we could use 2.6 inches of 28ga (which would be a very long coil with many turns), 1.85 inches of 30ga, 1.4 inches of 32 ga. the only limitation at that point is how much space you have to wind the coil in. if you're winding a genesis, you might be able to wind a 2.6 in coil if you made the windings really close together. but if you're winding a coil for a protank or similar, the rules change. you have a lot less space to work in, so you have to pick a wire size that will allow you to wrap a coil with the right resistance in the physical space in the coil head. for protank coils, i personally use 32 ga kanthal in a 4/5 wrap, that gives me 2 ohms, and i use 2 pieces of 3mm silica (wrap both pieces, no flavor wick here).

hope i didn't confuse the crap out of you :vapor:
 

JGonzo

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Jun 22, 2013
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Although I'm new to mechanical mod vaping, I'm not a stranger to circuit design...best advice I can offer is this. Design a circuit that could be safely driven by a battery at 100%. Then go back and re-design the circuit to only run at a much lower %. Kind of like Spinal Tap - if you're playing at ten, you want to be able to go up to eleven.

Here's another way to think of it - the FAA grounded the most important jet liner in 20 years (made by the only domestic producer) for sixth months out of fear that a stack of cells not very different from the ones in your hand could literally bring it down. Play on the safe side...
 
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