You're the dissenter! I agree that some companies would be totally screwed without it... but the insanely saturated market place they exist in presents maaaanny other options anyway.
I guess I'm going to have to die sooner than I thought.
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You're the dissenter! I agree that some companies would be totally screwed without it... but the insanely saturated market place they exist in presents maaaanny other options anyway.
Some are just stuck in their ways. What happens if only menthol and tobacco flavors are left? I prefer those flavors to others, but I imagine some will use flavor bans as an excuse to smoke again- tobacco and menthol flavored cigarettes...
Can you imagine the social upheaval if Coke and Pepsi (and all the others) were forced to take regular sugared drinks off the market? It will happen first in NYC, home of the limited drink size laws.
And I think it could happen some day. And I truly believe, and this is not rhetoric at all, that what happens in the vape world in terms of gov't control will become precedent for more intrusive control in other areas. Case law like this is often formed at the (voter) margins and only then applied to the masses.
Anyway, in this world I envision, I see Coke and Pepsi selling concentrate to the consumer market, and they or someone else will sell the machines (similar to what restaurants use but consumer versions). And we, the Pepsi regular drinkers will DIY our own, complete with the evil sugars of our choice.
because the AEMSA wants to play mini-FDA and make money while
doing it. talk about ANTZ rhetoric. 'we better to this to ourselves
before the FDA does.'
regards
mike
it's begun....
all of the large medical systems here have banned regular coke/pepsi from all of their facilities (hospitals/outpatient services/offices...) in both the vending machines and cafeterias but you can still get diet.
it's begun....
I think many schools have also pulled it from their vending machines...
My ADV has some of the debated chemicals in it and my educated guess based on the levels present and the information I've read about it doesn't give me pause. I believe it's better than smoking and my lung function and blood pressure continually improving seems to back up that fact. Time will tell and if I'm wrong I'll deal with it, we all have to go sometime and life thus far hasn't been amazing so if I check out early my only feeling is meh pick a nice box. 
Steam is smaller particles than vapor/aerosol, right? Really asking, here...also two bags a day for 10 years, and I don't know how much diacetyl was in a bag of butter flavored popcorn but I bet it was a looooot more than e-liquid vapor, although now we're talking about no diacetyl at all but rather related compounds right? Anyway...
There really is no strong research on the subject yet. Leading researchers- Dr. F and Kurt have said to avoid it and it shouldn't be used in e-liquid. Maybe the vaping activists know better than them...
Is it worth the risk just to vape certain flavors? Not for me, but I don't even drink soda...
Regarding the guy that allegedly got popcorn lung from eating popcorn... was that determination made by a rigid peer reviewed test or... a jury? I think that makes a difference.
Actually, Dr. F (haven't seen what Kurt actually said) said that diketones represent an avoidable risk. But he was careful not to actually spell out what that risk actually amounts to because there is no way of assessing that risk. His reasoning seems to be, based on his writings, that DA may or may not be risky but if there's even a chance, why use it as a flavoring? I understand his reasoning very well and it makes sense. But that reasoning could be applied to so many other things we all choose to do and consume.
We know for a fact cigarettes cause all sorts of nastiness. For vaping diacetyl, we have no evidence of anything. Why would you choose a known and large risk over an unknown but probably very small risk? We are all free to do as we please and I don't begrudge you that right but the logic you are employing escapes me.
This is speculation, even when Dr. F says it. It's certainly possible, but you would think that with all the hoopla over Bronchiolitis Obliterans in the last couple of decades that there would be more cases diagnosed. But nothing in the research or even case studies in medical journals indicates that this is the case. In fact, BO and COPD share similar symptoms but result from different physiological phenomenon. Lung biopsies are not routine but when they are done, I have yet to hear of one medical case in a smoker initially diagnosed with COPD only to have the biopsy confirm BO.
There is no evidence that the guy who sued the popcorn companies got BO from smelling popcorn. There is evidence that, in the course of running his carpet cleaning business, he was exposed to other chemicals that have also been known to cause respiratory problems. The standard of proof in a civil case is "preponderance of the evidence," which means it has to be proven to be more likely than not. Juries also rule on emotion. So a jury ruling in a civil case is not proof of anything other than the fact that he had a good lawyer. It's also worth noting that the defendants in that case appealed and then ended up settling out of court last year. What would have happened in another trial?
I brush it off because there is no evidence. Present evidence and I won't brush it off anymore.
For some people, replacing diketones with something else is like replacing regular Pepsi with diet Pepsi. Personally I can't drink diet anything but some people love the taste.
I offer you two incontrovertible facts (I believe) regarding diketones...
1. People have been vaping diketones for over 6 years now and to the best of my knowledge no vaper has ever been diagnosed with popcorn lung, or, for that matter, diagnosed with any vaping related lung damage of any kind, regardless of eJuice content.
2. The next 200 posts to this thread will argue certain death, and somehow avoid the discussion of #1 like the plague
LOL, carry on
Frankly, I couldn't care less about what someone else wants to vape, so there's that. But my issue has always been that if someone chooses the opposite and wants to vape flavors without diketones (which is just as much their prerogative as someone that does want to), then the vendor that states their eliquid has none must either show test results or show test results. One or the other. If a vendor does not want to show or perform tests, they should not speak on the matter or just say "we don't know." I got no qualms with that.
But to your #1, I will respectfully take that head on: linking the act of vaping, since its inception, with where we are today doesn't hold much water in this context (unless you vape like we did all those years ago). Vaping has been around for over 6 years, yes, but in its current form with the incredible rise in popularity and accessibility of juice guzzling, high-heat atomizers, it's only existed for (at best) a smidgen over a couple years. When vaping first began it was hard work just to go through a 3-5 mL a day (though I am sure some die-hards manged to do so), now most can plow through that in a 10-15 miuntes! Also, the liquid has changed as much as gear. Gone are the days of the simple flavors of tobacco, cherry, cola and bubble gum; enter in uber-rich, decadent liquids like caramel glazed butter-milk panna cota. So until we can say that vaping has been around for 6+ years in its current form, we can't link juice-guzzling, extreme heat atomizers drinking up newfangled dessert liquids with the past when a cartomizer and an ego was puffing on some acetyl pyrazine and tobacco absolute.
Note: I am not saying that there is any reason for anyone to be afraid, but if one is not afraid because vaping has existed for 6+ years and no one has developed popcorn lung, I recommend finding another rationale because that one is a bit off-base--again, unless you vape the same as back then.
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I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if many cases of COPD were the ones misdiagnosed.
That's why I currently choose to limit my diketone intake.
I could be wrong.
And I'd rather be wrong.
But I don't want to be dead.
As for Diet Coke, or Diet Pepsi, or Diet Anything?
I hate all of that stuff.
I like Coke Zero.
But mostly, I just drink filtered water.
You can vape what ever you want and if diketones in your eliquid make you happy then go for it there are a lot of people who feel the same way you do
I totally understand, which is why I always spoke in the first person as well as my personal explanation in post #9 in this thread. What I will never say (as one poster commented here) is that I hope a lot of people vape diacetyl, especially not the smokers. .... what is that supposed to mean - that the writer hopes people will get sick to prove him/her right? Pfft1
This is actually a very good point. I look at the level of diacetyl in cigarette smoke as the real "test." We know that the workers exposed to diacetyl developed BO fairly rapidly. Thus, in heavy smokers, we would expect it to also develop rapidly but we don't see that. So, while vaping is a bit too short of a time span, smoking has enough of a test track to draw some conclusions. It's also worth noting that we also haven't seen it in vapers thus far.
google search who discovered popcorn lung.I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if many cases of COPD were the ones misdiagnosed.
That's why I currently choose to limit my diketone intake.
I could be wrong.
And I'd rather be wrong.
But I don't want to be dead.
As for Diet Coke, or Diet Pepsi, or Diet Anything?
I hate all of that stuff.
I like Coke Zero.
But mostly, I just drink filtered water.
not a single entry.
just reference to how outbreaks of OB turned up
in industrial setting starting in the late 1990's to the early 2000's.
aside from the two recent cases in Texas nothing before or after.
i seriously doubt OB was misdiagnosed as COPD. it seems to me
the opposite would be true considering the money to be made
in litigation. it would be a convenient dodge to get around
the MTS.
regards
mike
I didn't say anything about hoping others will get sick. Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote. There's no way to know unless never smokers vape custards and other DA/Ap rich flavors, over a period of time. If former smokers vape custards and get COPD, smoking will be blamed.
The industry needs test subjects. If they choose to engage in vaping possibly dangerous substances, it is up to them, regardless of the outcome. They get sick or not doesn't make a difference to me. It is their choice...
I do see how the smoke vs. vape could make one draw conclusions about this, but I am not too sure how combustion changes it, so it's only so much of a tit-for-tat companion in my eyes. It may be the perfect discussion-ending comparisons, but I don't know it to be. I would like it to be though because I do not smoke! (Any more.)
While I do think looking at the history of vaping is worthwhile, unless we are actually talking about/studying specific vapers that have been vaping on specific liquids with a specific set-up for a reasonably long time, I am not sure it's worth a whole lot. So if we are going to use the "6+ years" as a basis for how we view the relative safety something, we would have to be dealing with people that have been vaping for that long. I see DC2 here, but most of us are under his vape age (the old fart! LOL), and many here are a whole helluva lot younger in vape years. [Note: DC2 don't do cloud blowin'! hehe]
Trust me, I desperately want all of this to be much ado about nothing, but I do have my concerns (even if minor) when I see my consumption of eliquid skyrocket (and that's not a concern about nicotine). The levels of heat that I vape on now were nowhere near this just as of early 2014. For me and my own arch of history, it's pretty young in this current state and I imagine most others are relatively young too (aside from the relatively niche market of genesis users that were the first real juice-eating cloud blowers, and even they don't go back but a few years, give or take) .
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Well my dear sir you do seem to be rather confused. At one point you say that you hoped non smokers vaped diacetyl , when a couple of posts before you suggested I go back to smoking.
I have no more to add to this thread and it's my bedtime anyway. I was expressing a personal preference. I did not at any point suggest that anyone should do likewise. There are also studies that suggest that vaping at very high voltages is not safe but I would be the last one to tell anyone what to do. What anyone does is their own decision.
Yes, never smoker vapers would need to vape diacetyl/AP rich liquids for period of time for an accurate assessment of the dangers to be known- preferrably with cloud chasing setups, to make the studies quicker.
If one doesn't care about avoiding health risks, why not go back to smoking? Kind of like when I see morbidly obese people vaping who say they quit smoking for their health...
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