I guess I'm going to have to die sooner than I thought.

[AndriaD]

Frankly, I couldn't care less about what someone else wants to vape, so there's that. But my issue has always been that if someone chooses the opposite and wants to vape flavors without diketones (which is just as much their prerogative as someone that does want to), then the vendor that states their eliquid has none must either show test results or show test results. One or the other. If a vendor does not want to show or perform tests, they should not speak on the matter or just say "we don't know." I got no qualms with that.

But to your #1, I will respectfully take that head on: linking the act of vaping, since its inception, with where we are today doesn't hold much water in this context (unless you vape like we did all those years ago). vaping has been around for over 6 years, yes, but in its current form with the incredible rise in popularity and accessibility of juice guzzling, high-heat atomizers, it's only existed for (at best) a smidgen over a couple years. When vaping first began it was hard work just to go through a 3-5 mL a day (though I am sure some die-hards manged to do so), now most can plow through that in a 10-15 miuntes! Also, the liquid has changed as much as gear. Gone are the days of the simple flavors of tobacco, cherry, cola and bubble gum; enter in uber-rich, decadent liquids like caramel glazed butter-milk panna cota. So until we can say that vaping has been around for 6+ years in its current form, we can't link juice-guzzling, extreme heat atomizers drinking up newfangled dessert liquids with the past when a cartomizer and an ego was puffing on some acetyl pyrazine and tobacco absolute.

Note: I am not saying that there is any reason for anyone to be afraid, but if one is not afraid becasue vaping has existed for 6+ years and no one has developed popcorn lung, I recommend finding another rationale because that one is a bit off-base--again, unless you vape the same as back then.

Very sound arguments. I particularly like the very first one: I don't care what other people vape, it's their life and their problem and their decision, and I have no control-freak need to control or compel anyone.

In fact, I don't know that diketones are any risk, in vaping. My main rationale for choosing not to use them is linked to my asthma; apparently the major symptom of B. O. is shortness of breath -- considering that I feel like that about half the time anyway, how the heck would I know if my shortness of breath was my usual asthma, or something far worse? I wouldn't. So it's just better I not go there at all, as much as I'm able -- I took the step of going to DIY, because I'm a very cynical, untrusting person, and I believe maybe .01 of what I read and maybe .5 of what I see; I prefer to trust the flavor mfr's because they're not johnny-come-latelys trying to get rich quick on the vape game; they'll still be here, no matter what happens to vaping.

But I would never presume to imagine that anyone else abstain from diketones if they do not share my circumstances of both asthma (or COPD, also bad for short-of-breath problems) and cynicism. If someone truly requires that sort of flavor to stay happily smoke-free, then vaping diketones has GOT to be less harmful than smoking.

Andria

 

[VNeil]

Frankly, I couldn't care less about what someone else wants to vape, so there's that. But my issue has always been that if someone chooses the opposite and wants to vape flavors without diketones (which is just as much their prerogative as someone that does want to), then the vendor that states their eliquid has none must either show test results or show test results. One or the other. If a vendor does not want to show or perform tests, they should not speak on the matter or just say "we don't know." I got no qualms with that.

But to your #1, I will respectfully take that head on: linking the act of vaping, since its inception, with where we are today doesn't hold much water in this context (unless you vape like we did all those years ago). Vaping has been around for over 6 years, yes, but in its current form with the incredible rise in popularity and accessibility of juice guzzling, high-heat atomizers, it's only existed for (at best) a smidgen over a couple years. When vaping first began it was hard work just to go through a 3-5 mL a day (though I am sure some die-hards manged to do so), now most can plow through that in a 10-15 miuntes! Also, the liquid has changed as much as gear. Gone are the days of the simple flavors of tobacco, cherry, cola and bubble gum; enter in uber-rich, decadent liquids like caramel glazed butter-milk panna cota. So until we can say that vaping has been around for 6+ years in its current form, we can't link juice-guzzling, extreme heat atomizers drinking up newfangled dessert liquids with the past when a cartomizer and an ego was puffing on some acetyl pyrazine and tobacco absolute.

Note: I am not saying that there is any reason for anyone to be afraid, but if one is not afraid becasue vaping has existed for 6+ years and no one has developed popcorn lung, I recommend finding another rationale because that one is a bit off-base--again, unless you vape the same as back then.

You are playing the "we just don't know card". But the fact is that for all the concern, there is a total absence of evidence of harm.

Consider these "facts", a big picture of this situation:

- Popcorn workers are reported to have gotten popcorn lung
- They inhaled diacetyl
- vapers (at least modern vapers) do not inhale diacetyl. Although it's been suggested that early on some flavors did contain diacetyl but was removed when the concerns were raised, replacing it with acetoin and AP. I have no idea, this is just what I've heard around here
- The dangers of Ap/acetoin are part theory and part due to rodent study. I am not aware of specific citations to industrial situations where workers got BO from those two replacement chemicals, just vague allegations. (If anyone can cite that, I'd like to see it)
- It has been alleged that levels of AP and acetoin in at least some eJuices is far, far in excess of FDA/OSHA guidelines
- It has been alleged that directly inhaling vapor is far worse than incidental exposure to ambient diacetyl in those plants
- not a single case of BO or any other permanent lung ailment has been reported in a single vaper
- The gov't says that BO was detected in popcorn workers with only ONE YEAR on the job. One year. Not 6 years, not a lifetime, not 20 years. One year.

Now, if you review all the "facts" above you see that they cannot all possibly be true. So we are left to pick and choose, I guess, but we do that with the knowledge that there is a total absence of evidence of harm. Total absence of evidence is not a minor detail. In most aspects of life, but in vaping it is viewed very differently.

I'm not saying there is no danger. I cannot say that. I cannot prove a negative, nor can anyone else, ever. I only pointed out an absence of evidence and now showing you that there must be much BS somewhere in this picture. Because the various "facts" totally contradict each other.

I absolutely agree with you that juice makers should be absolutely truthful in their pronouncements of juice contents, regardless of any Ultimate Truth here. If you know anything about me, you know I am a stickler for the facts, and the truth.

 

[nebulis]

If someone truly requires that sort of flavor to stay happily smoke-free ....

Andria

What does "truly" mean? It is a highly subjective requirement to use diketones or for that matter, one step further: to use flavors for vaping.

I have been vaping for two years now. And two days ago, I switched to completely flavorless vaping (after months using just a little bit of flavor while reading about DA, AP & Co.).

I feel cheated. Who said that flavors are a must, a "requirement" for liquids? Actually, nobody. But the whole vaping industry suggests that artificial flavoring is inherent to vaping, nobody offers ready-to-vape base as an option the way they offer flavored liquids. I did not know that it is possible to vape "naked" nicotine base until I read about people who did it. Up to that point, it never occurred to me that this could be an option at all. And yes, in this sense, I feel cheated, overall and thoroughly.

Later on, the more I saw how the flavor industry and the shops were unwilling to tell us the ingredients of what we pay for, to enable us to make that „informed choice“, the less I felt inclined to be manipulated this way. The cloud9vaping vs Five Pawns affair was the last drop in an already quite full cup of unwillingness - somehow unwilling to be part of it.

And, once this decision was made, i.e. looking back now, how absurd it was for me, chasing the best possible ADV while actively trying to avoid artificial flavors in my food.

 

[stevegmu]

What does "truly" mean? It is a highly subjective requirement to use diketones or for that matter, one step further: to use flavors for vaping.

I have been vaping for two years now. And two days ago, I switched to completely flavorless vaping (after months using just a little bit of flavor while reading about DA, AP & Co.).

I feel cheated. Who said that flavors are a must, a "requirement" for liquids? Actually, nobody. But the whole vaping industry suggests that artificial flavoring is inherent to vaping, nobody offers ready-to-vape base as an option the way they offer flavored liquids. I did not know that it is possible to vape "naked" nicotine base until I read about people who did it. Up to that point, it never occurred to me that this could be an option at all. And yes, in this sense, I feel cheated, overall and thoroughly.

Later on, the more I saw how the flavor industry and the shops were unwilling to tell us the ingredients of what we pay for, to enable us to make that „informed choice“, the less I felt inclined to be manipulated this way. The cloud9vaping vs Five Pawns affair was the last drop in an already quite full cup of unwillingness - somehow unwilling to be part of it.

And, once this decision was made, i.e. looking back now, how absurd it was for me, chasing the best possible ADV while actively trying to avoid artificial flavors in my food.

Halo does-

Fusion E-Liquid | Halo Cigs

 

[nebulis]

Halo does-

not really

" .... allows you to create your own flavors at your own strengths. It can also be used to spice-up some of your existing Halo e-juice."

 

[AndriaD]

What does "truly" mean? It is a highly subjective requirement to use diketones or for that matter, one step further: to use flavors for vaping.

I have been vaping for two years now. And two days ago, I switched to completely flavorless vaping (after months using just a little bit of flavor while reading about DA, AP & Co.).

I feel cheated. Who said that flavors are a must, a "requirement" for liquids? Actually, nobody. But the whole vaping industry suggests that artificial flavoring is inherent to vaping, nobody offers ready-to-vape base as an option the way they offer flavored liquids. I did not know that it is possible to vape "naked" nicotine base until I read about people who did it. Up to that point, it never occurred to me that this could be an option at all. And yes, in this sense, I feel cheated, overall and thoroughly.

Later on, the more I saw how the flavor industry and the shops were unwilling to tell us the ingredients of what we pay for, to enable us to make that „informed choice“, the less I felt inclined to be manipulated this way. The cloud9vaping vs Five Pawns affair was the last drop in an already quite full cup of unwillingness - somehow unwilling to be part of it.

And, once this decision was made, i.e. looking back now, how absurd it was for me, chasing the best possible ADV while actively trying to avoid artificial flavors in my food.

Truly = genuinely.

Flavors are a motivator. Not everyone requires the same motivator, obviously. But if someone gets used to a certain flavor, which is better than tobacco (it doesn't take much to be better than that!), then tobacco will taste even worse to them, should they ever break down and have a cigarette. It also keeps them vaping instead of smoking, because it does satisfy their need, AND their palate.

Just because you don't choose to vape flavor, is in no way evidence that others don't *truly* need those flavors.

Andria

 

[stevegmu]

not really

" .... allows you to create your own flavors at your own strengths. It can also be used to spice-up some of your existing Halo e-juice."

The point is they actually sell their base. How many others do?

 

[nebulis]

Just because you don't choose to vape flavor, is in no way evidence that others don't *truly* need those flavors.

Andria

No, of course it is no evidence for anything else then for itself ...

I meant it like this: "truly require" is something very subjective in this case. I thought myself that I truly required flavors.

 

[nebulis]

The point is they actually sell their base. How many others do?

In Europe, quite a lot of them sell base too. Base for Do-it-yourself, base for flavoring, base for mixing - but never "base for vaping" ;-)

 

[stevegmu]

In Europe, quite a lot of them sell base too. Base for Do-it-yourself, base for flavoring, base for mixing - but never "base for vaping" ;-)

I'm not talking shops, but e-liquid manufacturers. What brands sell flavorless base? I can't think of any others. Nikoticket is huge and I don't see base on their site, same with Johnson Creek...

 

[AndriaD]

Yeah... I've seen Unflavored in all the usual vaping strengths at quite a few vendors... MadVapes comes to mind.

Andria

 

[nebulis]

I'm not talking shops, but e-liquid manufacturers. What brands sell flavorless base? I can't think of any others. Nikoticket is huge and I don't see base on their site, same with Johnson Creek...

I am also talking e-liquid manufacturers, even though they may have their own shops. I don't know any in the US but some in Germany.

But again: this does not change the fact that they sell base for DIY flavoring, in bigger bottles, and never tell you that you can vape it as it is.

 

[DC2]

I see DC2 here, but most of us are under his vape age (the old fart! LOL), and many here are a whole helluva lot younger in vape years.

I only vape about 1ml per day, so I figure lots of people are going to have problems long before I do.
There's people now that vape more in five months than what I've vaped in the last six years.


And I still only vape at around 9 watts.
So that's another point for me.


And lots of vendors sell unflavored base.
I've gotten some from both Mount Baker and Halo.

 

[stevegmu]

I am also talking e-liquid manufacturers, even though they may have their own shops. I don't know any in the US but some in Germany.

But again: this does not change the fact that they sell base for DIY flavoring, in bigger bottles, and never tell you that you can vape it as it is.

It's less money. Fusion costs less than their flavored e-liquids. It is a business, after all...

 

[AndriaD]

I only vape about 1ml per day, so I figure lots of people are going to have problems long before I do.
There's people now that vape more in four months what I've vaped in the last six years.


And I still only vape at around 9 watts.
So that's another point for me.

Everytime I see someone say they vape in a day what takes me a week or more, I wonder if they've misplaced their decimal point... or their minds.

Andria

 

[Wow1420]

If it is so harmless, why is it that AEMSA doesn't allow its members to use it?

I thought AEMSA was still in the "developing standards" stage for diketone use? Linky please, if I'm wrong.

 

[Wow1420]

What does "truly" mean? It is a highly subjective requirement to use diketones or for that matter, one step further: to use flavors for vaping.

I have been vaping for two years now. And two days ago, I switched to completely flavorless vaping (after months using just a little bit of flavor while reading about DA, AP & Co.).

I feel cheated. Who said that flavors are a must, a "requirement" for liquids? Actually, nobody. But the whole vaping industry suggests that artificial flavoring is inherent to vaping, nobody offers ready-to-vape base as an option the way they offer flavored liquids. I did not know that it is possible to vape "naked" nicotine base until I read about people who did it. Up to that point, it never occurred to me that this could be an option at all. And yes, in this sense, I feel cheated, overall and thoroughly.

Interesting point. I don't think I'd have considered vaping unflavored if not for the unflavored fans posting here on ECF.

 

[Mr.Mann]

You are playing the "we just don't know card". But the fact is that for all the concern, there is a total absence of evidence of harm.

Consider these "facts", a big picture of this situation:

- Popcorn workers are reported to have gotten popcorn lung
- They inhaled diacetyl
- vapers (at least modern vapers) do not inhale diacetyl. Although it's been suggested that early on some flavors did contain diacetyl but was removed when the concerns were raised, replacing it with acetoin and AP. I have no idea, this is just what I've heard around here
- The dangers of Ap/acetoin are part theory and part due to rodent study. I am not aware of specific citations to industrial situations where workers got BO from those two replacement chemicals, just vague allegations. (If anyone can cite that, I'd like to see it)
- It has been alleged that levels of AP and acetoin in at least some eJuices is far, far in excess of FDA/OSHA guidelines
- It has been alleged that directly inhaling vapor is far worse than incidental exposure to ambient diacetyl in those plants
- not a single case of BO or any other permanent lung ailment has been reported in a single vaper
- The gov't says that BO was detected in popcorn workers with only ONE YEAR on the job. One year. Not 6 years, not a lifetime, not 20 years. One year.

Now, if you review all the "facts" above you see that they cannot all possibly be true. So we are left to pick and choose, I guess, but we do that with the knowledge that there is a total absence of evidence of harm. Total absence of evidence is not a minor detail. In most aspects of life, but in vaping it is viewed very differently.

I'm not saying there is no danger. I cannot say that. I cannot prove a negative, nor can anyone else, ever. I only pointed out an absence of evidence and now showing you that there must be much BS somewhere in this picture. Because the various "facts" totally contradict each other.

I absolutely agree with you that juice makers should be absolutely truthful in their pronouncements of juice contents, regardless of any Ultimate Truth here. If you know anything about me, you know I am a stickler for the facts, and the truth.

I am playing a card? Technically, I pulled yours since you said everyone would avoid your #1 like the plague and my whole post was about that. Just jiving, man, but for real, read my post again and you'll see I am playing no card there about "we don't now," but to say that we can't base our confidence on the notion that vaping has been around for x years and we have not seen x, y and z because it's all so very different now (just ask someone that has been around since then), when back then it was all the same. That was my position. I got no problem, now, with saying diketones are not proven to present a risk to vapers in eliquid because we don't have any research that proves otherwise (there you are correct), but I sure as hell can't say "total absence of evidence" because I don't know what in the hell has happened with people in their health as it relates to diketones and vaping. Safe to assume based on nothing on our radar, yes, but the absence of something on our radar does not make it not exist--it just makes it off our radar.

Lastly, I am not sure what lab reports you've seen, but if you got to Vaporshark and click on various test results, you can find more than a few show the presence of diacetyl (I just found a minimum of 10 and then stopped). I would link to them, but it won't actually link to the tests just the liquid and I'd rather not. So once again, the basis of the argument is flawed if the absence of DA in liquids is a "fact" you need to keep your position grounded. DA is in some eliquids. More than just one or two random liquids here and there. Popular liquids! And it's not like it's all that hard to find (that is if you trust those test results). It's in more than a few and what's really crazy is these aren't liquids that have been around for long. Also, I don't think you can equate the "one year" in a popcorn plant to vaping on a pound-for-pound scale because theose workers were obviously exposed to industrial sized vats for hours on end. It's safe to assume that a whole lot less than that (talking mL) would require more time than that to develop similarly. [Though BO is not something I concern myself with as it relates to vapers and DA. If I ever did, I don't know.]

Note: the liquids I found that contained DA were half chosen because I suspected it and the other half were random. But one was a liquid I just got for free with a purchase of an RDA. Wow. Word?! Damn yogurt! It's so good though. LOL

 

[Coldrake]

You can get unflavored nicotine e-liquid base at a lot of places, and at a small fraction of the cost that Halo charges.

Halo
$16.99 for 30ml.

My Freedom Smokes
$30.99 for 1000ml, plus 5 choices for PG/VG ratios.

EcigExpress
$31.98 for 1000ml, plus 3 choices for PG/VG ratios

 

[khalidmna]

Good for you.

I have lived long enough to have heard ALL of the different things that are bad for you until someone decided that it wasn't really bad. I decided that most of those scares were made by someone that had found a way to make money off of it. I recall at one point eggs were the worst thing a person could eat (egg beaters anyone?). That is just one example of the many that have been out there. I decided listening to all that bunk was detrimental to my health.

I eat what I want and will vape what tastes good to me and if it happens to take a few minutes off my life, so be it.

but then wouldn't that defeat the whole purpose of quitting smoking?